Remove AA Lock On alert for IR missiles and other things about AA Missiles

[Johncro]

3) Make handheld AA and AA Stinger delpoy less efective against planes (i don't think a 800km/h plane can be hitted by a handheld missile if you are over 500mt plus i don't know exactly the speed of the missile, but i don't think it can reach mach 1 beign an infatry portable one).

Dude I can't even hit a plane with Handheld AA.... I dunno wtf your talking about.

[badmojo420]

I do aa a lot, and I disagree with your suggestions. There's already the delay in the warning sound. If you play it right, you should already have your missile in the air half way towards the aircraft by the time that warning starts. I would support making the delay longer, but not completely removing the sound. In real life they have air crew who sit at the door and look for muzzle flashes and incoming fire, on top of the pilots ability to easily move his head and look out the window. If you dislike the alarm for IR missiles, just think of it as an on-board alarm system that was manually set off when a virtual crewman saw the missile launch.

[Jorgee!]

OK then if there's an IR protection system, but i can't affirm that all helos and planes are using it.

If this is not good for rdevs, i still keep my suggestion to low the deployable AA's sites to 2 per faction.

[Alex6714]

Some defense suites can detect inbound threats even if they are IR. Apache uses it, I should think most modern attack helis do (havoc maybe not, though could do now). As for transport helis I don´t think they did. Lots of speculating but I think these systems are part of modern upgrades for helicopters at least.

But the problem is: AA is abundant in PR, very very easy to use, and you have 1km range really meaning pilot has almost no time to evade with current missile speeds. That and missiles are far from the only threat.

Add on to that that PR is based in the near future apparently, most aircraft would probably have a mws anyway.

[Hunt3r]

I'd like to see flares actually shoot out a fair distance from the helicopter before this ever gets in.

[Bazul14]

LOMAC is realistic, can't disagree but an Sa7 or Stinger can hit a jet, if fired after the jet passes the gunner. Both AA missiles were designed to kill jets too, and not only MiG9s and MiG 15s...

[Bazul14]

Well, idk now, but older hueys did not have flares or anything like that. Anyways. A heli is not gonna make a super move to avoid an incomming missile. The best it can do is to go under a nearby hill, and that is possible right now in PR. IRL the pilot can't do too much if he sees the launch of the rocket. In 2 seconds it will be 5m from his heli. I would keep the AA like it is, same for the detection systems.

[badmojo420]

But the problem is: AA is abundant in PR, very very easy to use, and you have 1km range really meaning pilot has almost no time to evade with current missile speeds.

Well, rifles are abundant in PR and very very easy to use. And with the sniper rifles reaching out to the end of the view distance, people have almost no time to run for cover or return fire.

My point is, aircraft shouldn't be evading missiles. They should avoid putting their aircraft into a position where it can be fired upon. Just like infantry should avoid walking out into the open when there could be snipers watching.

Alex, does your vision of air combat in PR even include anti-air missiles? Every time you post in a topic about them, it always translates to "Nerf the AA!" because the aircraft aren't 100% realistic.

[llRvXll]

the aircraft aren't 100% realistic.

Of course they aren't

The eurofighter can use the hangar to tiltin to the sky and takeoff like a rocket.

The eurofighter can approach on a speed of 400, and even land on the hangar part, near the runways... the eurofighter needs around 100m of runway on landings...

I would like to see flares being lauched away from the aircraft, not being simply dropped...

this is just my opinion...

[badmojo420]

Of course they aren't

Of course, I was just saying that we shouldn't use that fact as an excuse to nerf the anti-air further. Nothing in this game is 100% realistic, making things MORE unrealistic to counter another items low level of realism is basically shooting yourself in the foot because your ear hurts.

[mat552]

My point is, aircraft shouldn't be evading missiles. They should avoid putting their aircraft into a position where it can be fired upon. Just like infantry should avoid walking out into the open when there could be snipers watching..

Aircraft don't "evade" missiles in PR. It simply doesn't happen. 999 times out of 1000, a single fired missile (that's locked on, if you fail to lock entirely, jumping the gun as it were, the missile will not track) is an instant, inescapable, inexorable death sentence for a fixed wing aircraft. The vast majority of times, I would pin it at above 85%, below 95%, it takes only a single missile to critically wound an attack bird, to the point that it takes more luck than skill to return to base to get repaired. Even the largest and hardiest of aircraft, transport choppers, won't take more than 3 missiles before exploding or loosing the pilot, killing it.

The single chance an aircraft has to survive is to not get locked in the first place, barring the freak occurrences where missiles fail to detonate, or detonate out of range. For attack helicopters, the only option is to stay BVR with extremely limited runs in, with flares preventing lockons on the way out. For Transport helicopters, that isn't an option. Jets need to either terrain mask or stay out of range of the launchers.
If this sounds remarkably like how it works in real life to anyone else, it does to me too.

In addition, there are virtually no restriction on the capabilities of anti air in PR. The only specialized training required is for mobile AA, and even that kit is requestable anywhere you could use the AA. Visual lockon range on Kashan amounts to some 950 meters on average, while the longest a fixed wing aircraft can reliably deliver support is some 800-900 meters, BVR is possible, but frequently leads to undesirable outcomes, TKs etc. Missiles fired are instantly travelling at maximum velocity, demanding microscopically small reaction times from a pilot.

All things considered, I'd say its entirely fair for aircraft to get that quarter second warning before the missile hits, seeing as flares don't help once a missile is fired, and flares are an analogue for Chaff/Flares/other active countermeasures.

Also, realistic as they are, I thought we weren't using other video games as source material?

[Archerchef]

i dislike this idea alot

[Hunt3r]

Going to be honest here, it is a terrible idea. Currently you have about a quarter of a second to respond to a missile. That's basically going to be a purely sensor evasion. In jets, you wouldn't even have time to pull off a maneuver like a split S to try and out-run the missile, because it will chase you to the end of the earth in PR. There needs to be a way to kinematically evade missiles.

Oh, and the pK of your average MANPAD is about .3-.4. Basically, MANPADs should be used in volleys of two to be able to have a reasonable chance of any sort in game to take down a helicopter or jet. Missiles are not the insta-kill they seem to be in PR. Even the RUAF ripple-fires their R-27s like they're FFARs.

[Archerchef]

getting shot down when flying within aa range is easy enough. no need to make it harder.

[llRvXll]

Yeah but, Hueys are kinda chucknorris against AA missiles, once i fired 2 AAs 50m from a huey, he lauched his flares and my missiles didnt hit him

[Archerchef]

Firstly: If you get locked on with a aim9/infrared missile, more than likely, the enemy pilot will ripple fire and most of the time you are dead. Best way to get out is to spam flares and turn with afterburner. Now, if people didn't know they are being locked on, they would just blow up in mid air without knowing why or have a chance to live. Also, most pilot who goes under 800 will deploy flares/chaffs. Thats common sense since they are already expecting ground AA to try and lock on to them.
If you take the missile warning off aim9/infrared missile its not going to change the gameplay much other than people blowing up randomly without warning.
ALSO, is this hardcoded? I dont know if they will be able to remove the audio warning for aim9 missile but not the aim120. I think they will have to either remove ALL warnings or leave it all on.

[Bringerof_D]

Not sure if I personally like this idea.

It's pretty easy to not be destroyed by missles. Being hit and losing your passengers is another matter

I don't go AA very often because I'm an AT person really...

I hope other people who like playing as AA alot will contribute to this thread.

I used to play AA alot on That old vBF2 MEC map back in .65 and .7 after that though the AA kits and deployables were too ineffective.

as others have stated, yes the pilot in game ahs less situational awareness, but with IR tracking missiles, you have no warning. the only way to detect it is to see it or have some device that tracks all fast moving objects. in which case by the time you see it, it would be too late to react. this is why IRL low and slow flying crafts DONT GO into enemy hot zones. If they do go in they deploy flares at the slightest sign of enemy presence and GTFO.

the biggest problem right now is the moment a pilot hears the lockon signal, they deploy flares and drop below the buildings/hill. it's just too easy to dodge AA.

[Alex6714]

Alex, does your vision of air combat in PR even include anti-air missiles? Every time you post in a topic about them, it always translates to "Nerf the AA!" because the aircraft aren't 100% realistic.

Of course it does. Just need to achieve a good balance. Just a bit skewed imo atm, can´t be bothered to explain yet again. Anyway, jaymz has already stated there are changes...

[Brainlaag]

Yeah but, Hueys are kinda chucknorris against AA missiles, once i fired 2 AAs 50m from a huey, he lauched his flares and my missiles didnt hit him

Meh not that true Hueys are pretty easy targets, when you get used to the AA. Just have to wait for the right moment.

On-Topic: I don't think pilots life should be made even harder. They got enough to deal with and they die pretty often other than the fact, that have to wait and eternity for their assets. As soon CAS is up they get shot down like after 5 mins by enemy jet, AA, tank, APC, LB, .....A TON of things. Making the AA even more effective is a death sentence to all pilots.

[Grim1316]

I think the current system is as close to reality as we can get in the bf2 engine. Almost all rotary wing aircraft have something similar the AN/AAR-57 CMWS. While it can not detect when it is being locked on by and IR seeking missile these systems can detect the launch of the missile. The computer then auto deploys countermeasures; since afaik that can't be done in the BF2 engine the split second warning is as close to reality as we can get for both AA and Pilots

Additional Links
Here
and Here