Attack Helicopters too underpowered

[Duke]

You clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and I'd be surprised if you've played this game at all. Having an Apache/Havok 'hide behind a ridge' and pop up is one of the stupidest and most unrealistic things you can do.

Actually dtacs, terrain-based pop-up attacks are the main method of attack for real attack helos in high-threat environments.

Just because it doesn't work all that well in PR doesn't make it unrealistic

[Jaymz]

AIR COMBAT TACTICS

Bob-Up

The helicopter's most adaptive features are its hovering ability and maneuverability, both of which allow it to take advantage of natural terrain. This is primarily important when airborne helicopter forces are battling ground troops that carry mobile SAMs and hand-held rockets. Under these battle conditions, another maneuver called the bob-up can be combined effectively with terrain masking.

The bob-up is a simple yet effective maneuver that is used to acquire targets for guided weapons or designate targets for other incoming gunships. The pilot approaches the enemy position at an extremely low altitude, following the terrain. Once the pilot maneuvers into position, he must acquire targets and get a visual on enemy positions. By using masking, he can hover undetected behind a nearby terrain feature and bob up for a momentary glimpse.



In the AH-64D, the active Fire Control Radar system on the mast above the rotors reads enemy positions during these bob-ups and marks targets on the TSD display. Up to 250 targets can be stored simultaneously and uploaded via a data link to command posts or other friendly craft.

When a forward observer has designated such a target, or when the co-pilot/ gunner is ready to fire off a missile, the helicopter simply rises a dozen feet or so, acquires a visual, fires off its weapons and descends. Then, the pilot may speed toward another masking object and repeat the process.

The bob-up maneuver was not originated by the Apache. In fact, it was used during the Vietnam war by Hueys seeking to limit their exposure to ground fire. In some cases, the pilot can fire weapons without exposing himself at all. A primary example is the Hellfire missile on the AH-64D Longbow Apache. A forward observer (either on the ground or in the air) can identify a target with a laser beam and transmit target information to a nearby attack helicopter. From hiding, the Apache can launch a Hellfire, which will travel over the terrain and seek out its preprogrammed target.

For the record, this works extremely well in-game. I've been owned by it and have used it myself multiple times.

[Duke]

For the record, this works extremely well in-game. I've been owned by it and have used it myself multiple times.

Very map specific though. It can work excellently when the terrain is prominent enough (e.g. muttrah, kashan etc).

On other maps with more gradual terrain however, one just tends to end up with lots of .50 cal sized holes.

[Celestial1]

It all depends on the pilot (moreso his brain than his stick skills). Low flying on any map is fully possible.

[Jaymz]

Yeah, Iron Eagle's quite good for it. Qwai is absolute win for the Kiowa if you're defending as US, because there's tons of hills you can use to pop the MMS over and have your co-pilot lase things.

[mat552]

Very map specific though.

Understatement of the year right there.

There is no middle ground employing this tactic in PR, you're either 60-0 or 0-60 when you try for it. People sit at altitude because it's safer. Though the tactic worked well on Muttrah for a while.

Low flying on any map is fully possible.

Indeed, so's calling in a JDAM on your own main. Doesn't mean it's even remotely a good idea.

[Celestial1]

Indeed, so's calling in a JDAM on your own main. Doesn't mean it's even remotely a good idea.

Didn't say it was.
As a pilot you should weigh every option, and if flying low isn't a good option flying high can be.

But you shouldn't entirely rule out flying low even on the most inhospitable of maps, it's a lot more unexpected and also gives the benefit of using any sort of cover, terrain and buildings alike, to mask your movement. Done right, it can be a load more effective than high flying. But again that all depends on the situation and the pilot's ability to judge it.

[Tim270]

Every exfil from a target on Muttrah in the cobra should be done low. Blocks AA locks/keeps the speed from the dive without having to waste time regaining height.

[Bufl4x]

From hiding, the Apache can launch a Hellfire, which will travel over the terrain and seek out its preprogrammed target.

Thats why this tactic works IRL. If you could somehow implement it in PR it would make low flying a viable method to engage targets.

Other reason why some people think choppers are underpowered is because they get overconfident with the thermal and the click to target missiles, but those won't save you from an incoming tank shell when you're hovering at 400. They made helicopters more powerful, but not as much as some might think.

[Celestial1]

Thats why this tactic works IRL. If you could somehow implement it in PR it would make low flying a viable method to engage targets.

It already is viable to fly low... Pop out, fire the laser guided missile, pop back down. Since it will continue to fly towards the target, it works really, really good.

Jaymz and me were both carrying Strelas as MEC on Iron Eagle in the same area, and the IDF Apache bobbed around quite a bit. He didn't use hellfires, which would have probably killed us all, but we couldn't do squat to him since by the time we could establish a lock he was back behind the hill, and even if we did lock there was a good chance it would collide with the mountain as it pulled back behind the hill.



IMO flying high is actually bad practice a lot of the time. In a perfect world, the helicopters would avoid eachother entirely, and AAs would be doing the work of taking the enemy's air support down.
"Hunting" other helicopters is kind of stupid and leaves a team effectively without air support until they can get a gap where there is no enemy helicopters.

[mat552]

I don't even know what to think now. I didn't realize how caught up pilots are in dealing with their opposites until tonight.

Me and Jafar_Ironclad flew normally, looking for the Havok prior to taking ground contacts.
Two [MAI] tagged players went low and fast, darting after lazes. Up until people stopped telling them about AA, they were doing great, and looked like they were having fun while I was sitting up at altitude, like always, bored out of my mind.

What really counts as helping your team here? Why is it encouraged to spend 45 minutes waiting for the other helicopter at altitude on your "side" of the map, knowing he's doing the same thing, waiting for you. Then one of us finally responds to the calls for help from the ground forces and the other pounces.

Personal gameplay crisis night.

[Zoddom]

"Hunting" other helicopters is kind of stupid and leaves a team effectively without air support until they can get a gap where there is no enemy helicopters.

thats exactly what i try to tell the people all the time on nearly every server-.-
@mat:
to me its clear:
either you wait a long time for the other heli to show up and get a chance of 50-50 to survive or you directly head for ground targets and kill some tanks during the time you waited for the heli. and even if you die before the other heli showed up, or because it killed you while you engaged ground targets, you have at least done something for your team.

[Celestial1]

Personal gameplay crisis

That's what I'm talking about, man...

We go through these same routines of sitting way up in the sky because back "in the day" pilots were seen as the guys who just wanted to play Top Gun and therefore couldn't be relied on; in some facets that could have been the case but now people are starting to come around to the fact that those fly boys really want to, and can, help out.

In a perfect world, this sort of thing is a lot more effective. Like you said, when teamwork degraded a bit and people stopped reporting AA threats, things went south. But while they were up, I'd have to bet the MEC team wasn't happy with them.
The "perfect world" consists of a few inf SLs that are quick and efficient at communicating targets, a few AA weapons in use to deal with the enemy attack helicopter, and a pilot/gunner that are quick to react, think out their motions, and fly with these tactics.

At least, imo. I'd love to see people start thinking about that in-game and really bring the teamwork in public games to a much higher level...

[lukeyu2005]

Chopper hunting is only effective when you know where the helicopters are coming from and that it's vital in disrupting their supply lines. Like the U.S. hueys on Muttrah.

Then of course it's never too safe to go close to the carrier.

[mat552]

But the total irony here Celest is that the fun way, the way that worked well, the way that encouraged teamwork, was completely unrealistic. I'm struggling to come to terms with that. Were this vbf2 I wouldn't give it a second thought, but this is PR, we're all supposed to do a little roleplaying here, right? We're not just supposed to do what the engine lets us, we're supposed to play as realistically as we can within the constraints of a flawed system.

[Celestial1]

But the total irony here Celest is that the fun way, the way that worked well, the way that encouraged teamwork, was completely unrealistic. I'm struggling to come to terms with that. Were this vbf2 I wouldn't give it a second thought, but this is PR, we're all supposed to do a little roleplaying here, right? We're not just supposed to do what the engine lets us, we're supposed to play as realistically as we can within the constraints of a flawed system.

I don't think I understand what you're saying.
If you're saying low altitude flying is completely unrealistic, I certainly don't follow you, because that would be quite the contrary.
If that's not what you're getting at, you'll need to rephrase it.

[scharf]

head for ground targets and kill some tanks during the time you waited for the heli.

Heli pilots with that frame of mind are the ones that wont live longer than 10 mins..

Whenever im in a map with Heli Air to Air combat i will fly around at 1500.. within a few minutes of searching normally find the enemys heli right beneath us a sitting duck for the Aim9

[Celestial1]

Whenever im in a map with Heli Air to Air combat i will fly around at 1500.. within a few minutes of searching normally find the enemys heli right beneath us a sitting duck for the Aim9

You're the reason we can't have nice things, etc etc.

Helicopters fighting directly is as silly as armor fighting all alone in the Northern mountains in Kashan. Not helping the team, only fighting in a battle against the other team's equal asset.

AA should be fighting that battle. You should be fufilling the need for CAS.

[Masaq]

If you're a heli pilot, refuse to take off until you see your team's AAVs have all left base... they scratch your back, you scratch theirs!

[dtacs]

You're the reason we can't have nice things, etc etc.

Helicopters fighting directly is as silly as armor fighting all alone in the Northern mountains in Kashan. Not helping the team, only fighting in a battle against the other team's equal asset.

AA should be fighting that battle. You should be fufilling the need for CAS.

Scharf knows what hes talking about:


What he means is taking down the enemy air followed by actual CAS. But flying low on a game which is as random as this is suicide. Look at Kashan for example, tanks flanking is incredibly common so flying low and hovering behind a hill waiting for something is an idiotic idea. While Duke may have said it is realistic, its a silly tactic in PR. Popping out to scan is what gets you shot down by a HAT.

AA is such a joke in PR that its best allocation is as Anti Infantry (talking about the Patriot here), its honestly more of a novelty especially on Kashan when its being soloed to arbitrary spots on the map.