Attack Helicopters too underpowered

[lukeyu2005]

Can we just conclude that flying high is good for anti-chopper and an general death from above position but venerable to anti aircraft fire.

Flying low allows you to avoid anti-aircraft fire but leaves you venerable to choppers.
And bobbing up and down is very effective at taking out tanks at a distance.

Being a good choppers pilot is using a combination of these tactics and at the right time.
Not exactly the easiest of tasks but if done properly can be very effective.

[[RIP]-Chido312]

another thing you can do is dive from above and make quick passes at targets.

[Andy[EEF]]

-Chido312;1482769']another thing you can do is dive from above and make quick passes at targets.

And then die because of a decent tank or APC gunner...

[Celestial1]

complete lack of AA.

That's a problem that the team should be handling, not you.
There are, regardless of map, two AA rifleman kits. Many squads have a member that is not using a specialty kit, and has no need for the ammo bag in his rifleman kit. Kit him up as an AA Rifleman.
There are, regardless of map, a ton of AA launchers that can be built 200m from any FO, more than enough wiggle room to place the launcher in a position that covers a large area.

Attack Helicopters should never face off directly. There's a big difference between losing a helicopter because you didn't get the luck of the draw, and losing an infantryman because the enemy helicopter got him before he could fire. Just like we generally prefer AT/TOW to take out an enemy tank because it's swift, powerful, and reduces casualties, we should prefer MANPADS to deal with enemy helicopters.



I have a problem with the team's helicopter going above the clouds solely to search for the enemy's helicopter. Best case scenario they find the enemy helicopters in around 5 minutes and have 5 minutes of CAS time. Second to worst, they're tied up with enemy helicopters the majority of the round. Worst, they lose their choppers because they didn't spot the enemy chopper in time/didn't score the first hit with AA missiles.
Flying low more often is part of getting out of this archaic, flawed mindset.

[Zoddom]

You're at 1500 looking for us. We're killing your tanks, who's being selfish?

exactly my point.
i agree to what celestial said.
its just not your job to kill the enemy helicopter, since its called CAS, CLOSE air SUPPORT, and not scramble, intercept or whatever. everyone has his role, and if he filled it, the team would be perfect.

and yes its selfish, if you hunt the chopepr to write "YEAH ENEMY APACHE DOWN HAHA LOLZ NOOB".

And i could do alot more for the team in the time your standing on the pad waiting for your heli after getting smashed

this argument is totally invalid. wheres the evidence that your chance to survive the chopper hunt is higher than mine to survive the CAS?

[Rudd]

Helicopters have become much easier to use imo thanks to thermals and changes to helfires.

my opinion on why helicopters often fail is that the crew get tunnel vision.

At various times during a game flying low is the correct strategy, to ensure you are on station etc, at other times flying high to avoid contact until called in by ground forces. However what alot of helicopter crews do wrong is this...

Receive info on target
move in to position to strike
attack target
spend too long trying to kill this one target, and get killed in turn

this either happens by the pilot remaining completely still and getting shot by a tank/whatever, or by the pilot flying around this one target while the gunner tries to kill the target on the move

now, teh latter is the correct thing to do imo, keep moving to avoid incoming fire, but if you don't get the target on your 1st or 2nd try, GET OUT OF THERE AND TRY AGAIN IN A MINUTE OR SO.

Tunnel vision - all you see is the target, you block out everything else and therefore you get shot down, one dead tank is nice, but not at the cost of your aircraft.

[Zoddom]

Rudd;1483001']Helicopters have become much easier to use imo thanks to thermals and changes to helfires.

my opinion on why helicopters often fail is that the crew get tunnel vision.

At various times during a game flying low is the correct strategy, to ensure you are on station etc, at other times flying high to avoid contact until called in by ground forces. However what alot of helicopter crews do wrong is this...

Receive info on target
move in to position to strike
attack target
spend too long trying to kill this one target, and get killed in turn

this either happens by the pilot remaining completely still and getting shot by a tank/whatever, or by the pilot flying around this one target while the gunner tries to kill the target on the move

now, teh latter is the correct thing to do imo, keep moving to avoid incoming fire, but if you don't get the target on your 1st or 2nd try, GET OUT OF THERE AND TRY AGAIN IN A MINUTE OR SO.

Tunnel vision - all you see is the target, you block out everything else and therefore you get shot down, one dead tank is nice, but not at the cost of your aircraft.

youre right, thats what i think too, but in fact the missing coordination ability between pilot and gunner makes this not as easy as it seems.

[Alex6714]

The debate to fly low or high is just all subjective. It depends on the circumstances...

From experience I know that, if a heli is low, without support, reported to enemy team, enemy heli will come and kill it with a very high probability of success. If the heli is low, and has support (friendly AA), and is reported to enemy team, both helis are likely to go down.

I would love to fly low, but when there is an enemy heli up, its just not going to happen because I want the best survivability possible.

You say, which is more selfish? I say, none.

Last time me and mora played on Iron eagle, we got our apache up, hunted havocs (oh yes, we are selfish) shot them both down within five minutes of each other, while the second apache did cas, then we had a good 15 mins of cas ourselves too. When the havocs respawned, we did the same again.

Now, whats more useful to the team? Depends what the second heli is up to. But also, is killing 2 enemy tanks better than killing the enemies ability to kill 2 of yours? Its not so clear. I see it just as important to eliminate the enemy helis as it is to do CAS, because that takes the ability away from the enemy. And the best tool to take out another helicopter is a helicopter, simply because it can reach the same places (as most fly high, they might be out of aa range), it just takes some tactics. Especially evident when: Iron Eagle (IDF have no AAVs) or any map in which the AAVs are not being used and the firebases not manned (about 70% of rounds).

To conclude, do I think this is correct? Not really. Do I like it? Not so much. But thats how it is in game. If real tactics could be used it would be epic, but its just not possible with view distance, asset layouts, the blue mob and the engine in general. Unless there is some kind of strange gentlemens agreement, if I don?t hunt the other heli, I know it will get me.

[Saarna]

On the air combat aspect of the attack helicopters, is there a specific reason they are still so well armed for the job?

While the gunships portrayed in PR are capable of carrying the missiles they're now armed with in real life, they would have to sacrifice half their air to ground ordnance to free up the hardpoints. Of the lot only the AH-64D is equipped with the wingtip stations now holding the missiles, and even it can only carry Stingers in addition to the full complement of ground attack munitions.

[Zoddom]

On the air combat aspect of the attack helicopters, is there a specific reason they are still so well armed for the job?

While the gunships portrayed in PR are capable of carrying the missiles they're now armed with in real life, they would have to sacrifice half their air to ground ordnance to free up the hardpoints. Of the lot only the AH-64D is equipped with the wingtip stations now holding the missiles, and even it can only carry Stingers in addition to the full complement of ground attack munitions.

usually, the havoc and its shturm (or shkval? idk) rockets could engage enemy air contacts with thermal optics. but since its not possible to code this ... idk...
but i also think they should be removed, for the sake of gameplay.

@alex...
hm i dont know... ofc its important to teke away their ability to destroy your assets, but as said its the role of AA units. If you are hunting their air support, then who is supporting air support for your team?? and when hunting their helis theres still the chance of getting the hunted and get killed by the other heli, or by enemy AA.
So when both providing CAS and AA support theres the chance of being taken down, so now the question is what is more usefull for the team to do in the time you are alive?
it should be obvious to everyone.

[mat552]

but i also think they should be removed, for the sake of gameplay.

it should be obvious to everyone.

Yes to the first. Yes and yes the more I think about it. Air vehicles are already unrealistic, this change could be for the better.

To the second, that's opinion based and highly circumstantial. If you kill the enemy choppers, but your team gets rolled by an armor column, then you wasted your time. If you kill the enemy tank advance, but the chopper kills you and all your friendly tanks, then you also wasted your time. If you manage to kill both, then you win. Right now in PR it's an all or nothing situation.

[Kain888]

On the air combat aspect of the attack helicopters, is there a specific reason they are still so well armed for the job?

Removing AA missles on attack choppers seems to be brilliant idea if we want to change that unrealistic 1,500m chopper hunting. That actually may be a step in good direction.

[[RIP]-Chido312]

;1482934']And then die because of a decent tank or APC gunner...

not if you know what your doing. i have done the tactic with a friend whos a really great heli pilot in PR, as long as the pilot knows what hes doing then no matter how good the APC or Tank gunner is. hes not going to get you. the US army and marine corps attack heli plots still train and use the tactic even today.

[EmBra]

Removing AA missles on attack choppers seems to be brilliant idea if we want to change that unrealistic 1,500m chopper hunting. That actually may be a step in good direction.

As a former frequent a-choppah crewman I support this idea 110%.

I'm sick of playing anti air vehicle in my CAS helicopter.
This is one of the reason me and Zrix stopped flying after 0.87, we did more anti-air missions than air to ground and it felt worthless tbh, then we could do more damage in a tank or as infantry.

Remove the AA-missiles from the a-choppas and give them more flare-drops and it should all be good.

[Titan]

As a former frequent a-choppah crewman I support this idea 110%.

I'm sick of playing anti air vehicle in my CAS helicopter.
This is one of the reason me and Zrix stopped flying after 0.87, we did more anti-air missions than air to ground and it felt worthless tbh, then we could do more damage in a tank or as infantry.

Remove the AA-missiles from the a-choppas and give them more flare-drops and it should all be good.

uhm..No?...

anybody remember the Bf2 chopper fights? Dodging Hellfires and killing with hydras?
not exactly realistic.

the only solution would be to let the pilot look up and fires his stinger on an enemy chopper above him ... (note: like Combined Arms did it) .. this way flying low would be beneficial again.. even in air to air combat. ( but off cours would favor a Joystick )

[karambaitos]

Rudd;1483001']Helicopters have become much easier to use imo thanks to thermals and changes to helfires.

my opinion on why helicopters often fail is that the crew get tunnel vision.

At various times during a game flying low is the correct strategy, to ensure you are on station etc, at other times flying high to avoid contact until called in by ground forces. However what alot of helicopter crews do wrong is this...

Receive info on target
move in to position to strike
attack target
spend too long trying to kill this one target, and get killed in turn

this either happens by the pilot remaining completely still and getting shot by a tank/whatever, or by the pilot flying around this one target while the gunner tries to kill the target on the move

now, teh latter is the correct thing to do imo, keep moving to avoid incoming fire, but if you don't get the target on your 1st or 2nd try, GET OUT OF THERE AND TRY AGAIN IN A MINUTE OR SO.

Tunnel vision - all you see is the target, you block out everything else and therefore you get shot down, one dead tank is nice, but not at the cost of your aircraft.

this.
Chopper crews need to adopt hit and run tactics, in PR most times chopper crews think they are god and get killed by
A. constantly diving into the target so the pilot can get leet kills, i mean really diving onto 3 tanks of course your going to die when you start pulling up you cant kill all 3 of them, sometimes its a good tactic to dive in but not every single time you get a laze
B. hover over a spot for 5 mins (of course someones gonna request a man pad or HAT)

[PatrickLA_CA]

cant kill all 3 of them

FYI I've killed 4 at once on Iron Eagle from Havoc , all with 4 HFs no more

[Kain888]

uhm..No?...

anybody remember the Bf2 chopper fights? Dodging Hellfires and killing with hydras?
not exactly realistic.

PR is a lot less forgiving when it comes to making rolls with you heli and sniping with tv guide missile though.

FYI I've killed 4 at once on Iron Eagle from Havoc , all with 4 HFs no more

Cool story bro.

[Albatross]

Choppers are evil for ground troops .. Hence why as infantry we dread them.
Keep them the same , don't give them an edge on us..

[Zoddom]

PR is a lot less forgiving when it comes to making rolls with you heli and sniping with tv guide missile though.

this. , @titan:
i got the feeling you dont know what youre talking about. you cant do EPC LULZ HELI BATTULES like in vanilla.
thats why they introduced the AA pods.
i thik we should test to reduce the amount of missiles to 1 at first, then we would see if its necessary to remove them all.
(perhaps attach an ECM pod to the pylone where the 2nd missile was befre, so it doesnt look unbalanced xD)