Is PR straying from its roots?

[Zoddom]

yes, but since the normal layer is not skirmish and not vehicle warfare layer either, it should represend combined arms fightings. and as it is now MBTs have a too big role on kashan/ wanda shan.
imo large maps have not been greated for heavy vehicle battles, thats VW mode for, but for just improve gameplay and make the maps more realistic.

[Rhino]

yes, but since the normal layer is not skirmish and not vehicle warfare layer either, it should represend combined arms fightings. and as it is now MBTs have a too big role on kashan/ wanda shan.
imo large maps have not been greated for heavy vehicle battles, thats VW mode for, but for just improve gameplay and make the maps more realistic.

There is the Infantry layer (not the skirmish layer) which is just transport choppers, jeeps, trucks and infantry....

[DenvH]

I think PR has grown a lot since .4 when I started playing. And I have to say I disliked the deviation in .8 or something, suddenly I wasn't able to shoot like I did the versions before and I had to learn all over again. Now that I'm fully capable of shooting people normally again, the only thing bothering me is balance on most maps.

Balance is a difficult thing to create since players will not always act the same, for instance: In pub games any team can win on almost every map, in the PR tournament, where all players work together and the teams are about the same in strength/skill these unbalance issues on maps show up.

Like the on map Qwai River, where the Chinese get a MBT and a bunch of APC's while US gets one Bradley and 3 Strykers. These Strykers are pretty much ineffective against their APC's and useless against the tank obviously, now the Bradley has a chance but it can get destroyed by both their APC's , tank , HAT's and LAT's.. On top off all that, the US also get a side of the river where the terrain is against them. The Chinese get higher ground and also have an advantage in close quarter combat with their full auto rifles.

Better balance in assets would fix a lot I think, if we look at online strategy games like Company of Heroes, they balanced the game in it's best form played by high ranked players so that the asset balance is close to perfect. You would still have unbalanced games due to differences in player skill but you know both teams have a fair chance of winning asset wise. The winning team in my opinion should be the team that cooperates the best and that would be achieved by having a close to perfect balance in assets.

[Farks]

yes, but since the normal layer is not skirmish and not vehicle warfare layer either, it should represend combined arms fightings. and as it is now MBTs have a too big role on kashan/ wanda shan.
imo large maps have not been greated for heavy vehicle battles, thats VW mode for, but for just improve gameplay and make the maps more realistic.

Combined arms doesn't mean that there has to be a precise 50/50 ratio between vehicles and infantry all the time. I doubt it would work. It's better to put the emphasis on either the vehicles or the infantry in order to maintain focus. And VW wasn't added to phase vehicles out of AAS.

[InSovietRussia]

5 mins less spawn time in general.

Meh, I like the longer spawn time. It makes a bigger consqeuence for the team when their vehicles are lost, and makes people use them more tactically and carefully (the AH-1 Cobra on Muttrah, for example.)

[Zoddom]

Meh, I like the longer spawn time. It makes a bigger consqeuence for the team when their vehicles are lost, and makes people use them more tactically and carefully (the AH-1 Cobra on Muttrah, for example.)

the ticket loss and the spawn time as it is now are more then enough a consequence for the team. Stretching spawn timers would only cause inbalance and would make it much too easy to win. If they were shorten, the team which manages to take out all heavy resistance would have to hurry up and launch a quick rush in order to cap the objectives before the assets have respawned. as it is now, it only results in a careless team which idles around, cause they dont need to worry about the enemy anymore.

[Cobhris]

Of course it isn't, but it should be about balance, be that symmetrical or otherwise. Maps like SEagle offers a good combat experience by having infantry islands, however its an immense struggle when operating as infantry in one of these islands to take down enemy vehicles, often attrition is the best form of dealing with them, which honestly shouldn't be the case.

tl :d r, infantry need more ways to deal with assets than is currently offered.

I don't know about you, but I actually like the "underdog" feel that the infantry role has. Knowing that you're the grunt, the cheap and expendable cannon fodder makes it all the more satisfying when your squad manages to succeed at its goals. Sure, vehicles are fun (especially when you're on a roll in a tank and the enemy can't get a good fix on you), but it doesn't give you the same visceral "GET SOME!" experience that you can get as a lowly riflemen dodging machine gun fire on the front.

[BenHamish]

Out of interest, what other games/mods are Inf & Reality focused?

[dtacs]

ARMA 2 and its many incarnations, and to a lesser extent the source mod Insurgency.

[OJ_]

Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45 and the Darkest hour mod are mainly inf based

[Outlawz7]

and as it is now MBTs have a too big role on kashan/ wanda shan.

Well hello, it stands for main battle tank, of course it has a big role, you don't assault over huge areas with walking infantry. -.-

[MadTommy]

PR is is an amazing game and i still love to play it. Ive been playing since .4 and from the many, many changes have come. But since then in my opinion its seems to me that strayed from teamwork some. It seems to me that anymore its about playing in all the vehicles and just trying to show off in tricks in the planes and stuff. This game use to have a lot more inf squads now im lucky if I see 1 or 2 a map.

SemiStory: I remember when Muttah was all about INF and me and my squad were held up in the T buildings with cobra missiles were hitting right next to us and inf poring in.

Now it seems is if you try and have an inf squad there you just go around a corner and there is a APC or a BT something sitting there and then mows you down. So any more people are just in tanks or sitting in mortars. Mean really does it take 6 people to man 2 mortars. The few places left with INF squads are Insurgent map and that even has flaws. Now that it counts a kill if your wounded every one is scared to go into battle, or just sits in the vehicles.

All and all I really think some of these maps need some of the larger assets replace with troop transports.

I entirely agree. Combined arms for many people is desirable, but with only a max of 32 on each side it simply does not work in my opinion.

The best days of PR were when you had a standard rifle, very similar to everyones else's rifle, jeeps & vodniks and that was about it. Hardcore infantry tactics & battles. Yes i know there are infantry layers & skirmish.. but with such a small community there does not seem to be the population to keep such server populated, i don't believe this means there are not people wanting them.. it just how communities & clans run their servers all desperatly trying to keep them populated.

Now with so many roles to fulfill and so few to fill them its just boring. There are rare exceptions where you actually see some multiple infantry squad fights, but these are too rare.

PR's 2 & 4 km combined arms maps need a minimum of 64 on each side.. probably more.

With the removal of maps like Ghost Train & Mestia i feel the team are just shooting themselves in the foot with regards to keeping a proportion of the community wanting to play regularly.

[Rhino]

The best days of PR were when you had a standard rifle, very similar to everyones else's rifle, jeeps & vodniks and that was about it. Hardcore infantry tactics & battles.

There is always the Infantry layers of the maps that do just this? If you want them and the servers are not putting them up, talk to the servers about it?

[MadTommy]

yeah I know mate.. i edited my post to include why i think this layer is never played.... as i sure you are aware.

All the toys are too tempting... no one runs Infantry only layers.

[Rhino]

I'm sure there are enough players out there to convince one server to change over to 24/7 infantry layers, or at least convincing a few servers to run more infantry layers mixed in with the normal layers.

Although if you can't manage that, maybe you guys can try and push for more infantry layer events?

[MadTommy]

We'll change our server to 24/7 infantry layers... but unfortunately T&T does not have the PR player numbers to able to compete with the larger communities & clans to get our server seeded regularly.

Maybe a large community will do the same...and give it a go. it would make a nice change to have some diversity in the servers available. Presently they all seem to be running the same versions. I'm sure the DEV team would like to see the effort put into the different version be rewarded with them actually being played.

[=]H[=[Amish]Kommando]

[...] Now it seems is if you try and have an inf squad there you just go around a corner and there is a APC or a BT something sitting there and then mows you down [...]

Bring a HAT kit then?

[doop-de-doo]

PR has changed in more ways than this thread discusses. Straying from it's roots, IMO, is saying that team cohesion and teamwork are no longer there and it's every man (and his points) for himself.

No matter what game mode you prefer, the core system is the same. Teamwork, communication, cohesion, and, if not chain of command, team strategy.

All the latest increments and additions have been towards support and maintenance of the above. To pick up on your train of thought in regards to assets downplaying infantry: What is the difference between teamwork in an infantry squad and teamwork in an armored column?

From what I've seen, regardless of my not being there for the earliest versions, PR is not about infantry only, specific map types, or game modes, but about being efficient as a whole team/squad.

[Sir.Grossi]

Tell you what!! [RIP] will run a few infantry layer maps tonight...



I also sympathise with the OP

[Bonsai]

The disparity of assets is one of the most challenging and at the same time most enjoyable features of PR.

While it works rather good in insurgency - it seldom works on AAS whith two regular armies. At least on public servers.

Ofc. the bradley on Qwai River is no match for the MBT while they are both on the move. But the map layout favours the US as they can be on all decisive locations before the chinese. And once the brad is stationary with loaded TOW - you do not want to get in range with your MBT.

Ofc. the attack chopper on Muttrah is the superior weapon (given the crew knows what they do). Therefore the MEC gets an advantage in mobility.

...and so on!

I think any new idea for a briefing room and some small improvements/benefits for COs in the round start would bring the mod into the right direction - unfortunately I have no ideas how that should look like.