Pubbers don't understand Proper Teamwork

[Sidewinder Zulu]

PR isnt a game for pub play.

I strongly disagree with that.

I've never been in a clan, never wanted to, and never plan to join one, and I've still been able to find a great deal of teamwork and success playing with people I don't know.

To be honest, I've often seen less teamwork from clans, who simply create their own special clan locked squad, and then ignore requests from other squads and the commander, since they only cooperate with eachother.

Sure you can play american football with random people, but would it be a good game?

Uh, yeah, it would be.
I've done exactly that before, and it was a lot of fun.

[Zoddom]

I strongly disagree with that.

I've never been in a clan, never wanted to, and never plan to join one, and I've still been able to find a great deal of teamwork and success playing with people I don't know.

To be honest, I've often seen less teamwork from clans, who simply create their own special clan locked squad, and then ignore requests from other squads and the commander, since they only cooperate with eachother.

right that. THATS what i wanted to say with:

For me, PR was the first game I could ever play on public - without "pubbers". It was the first game where noone lamed around, baseraped, vehicle stealed and whatever.

and its the truth.... or at least it was.
i completely agree with zulu about clans in PR. many clans only do "teamwork" with themselves and then they think they are great and skilled if they have a CAS squad/sniper squad with a spotter, cause its "TEAMWORK" to have a spotter.... but dont accept requests from the team.

very sad


edit:
@furst:
the main idea of my post

What has to be done is big: making teamwork first priority wont help much, as there still is teamwork, but as I described, totally useless. the main thing which has to be achieved is making players understand and follow the game rules.

is still significant in this discussion.

[boilerrat]

I don't use any other voip programs besides the BF2 one.
Mumble, and vent especially will totally destroy my ping because of my terrible speeds.

If that wasn't a problem, I probably still wouldn't do what you're suggesting... Most of my squads don't require assistance from other squads, and if they need our assistance the commander bridges the communication gap like he should.

I disagree that you need to be in a clan to play this game or enjoy it, I won't join one.
Playing with two or three good friends and random people is good enough for me.

[Zoddom]

I disagree that you need to be in a clan to play this game or enjoy it, I won't join one.
Playing with two or three good friends and random people is good enough for me.

as OP said. you dont need to be in a clan or with friends

[Furst]

I don't use any other voip programs besides the BF2 one.
Mumble, and vent especially will totally destroy my ping because of my terrible speeds.

If that wasn't a problem, I probably still wouldn't do what you're suggesting... Most of my squads don't require assistance from other squads, and if they need our assistance the commander bridges the communication gap like he should.

I disagree that you need to be in a clan to play this game or enjoy it, I won't join one.
Playing with two or three good friends and random people is good enough for me.

the problem is... you are not the correct addressee for what this topic is about, since you seem to know the 101's of this game pretty good, with or without Mumble, TS or whatever. this here is for and about the people who complain about other people (usually with clan or community prefix) being better since they may use external communication programs to coordinate and improve their teamwork (insane allegation in a game like PR, isnt it?).

it doesnt seem that you are one of those since you know how to play even "only" with the BF2 given VOIP, which is in my opinion the main VOIP platform used within PR at all and completely adequate besides the team chat. Mumble, TS etc. are truly nice features, but indeed not omnipresent and decisive.

the topic of this thread does not want to force or convince any player to use Mumble or Teamspeak, it wants every player to recognize and realize that they share the same basics and fundament as any other player and that they just have to use and exhaust the free given resources, may it be team chat, ingame VOIP or Teamspeak. why that? to make people stop complaining and accusing others for being better since they might be using platforms for communication which are free for all.

[Furst]

PR isnt a game for pub play. Sure you can play american football with random people, but would it be a good game?

i cant agree with that. i love public playing! i even like it more than having clanwars, since the opportunities for oneself are somehow bigger in my opinion.

why should playing public be a bigger expression of playing with random people than playing with people sharing the same prefix as you do? everyone usually is a random person from any place on earth and we find together in a game to play. even if im playing with a person since several weeks/months/years, what could be more random than this? i'd say its about understanding the game and finding ways to cooperate in the most effective way, public and clan based.

[Canuck]

As a pure pubber, there is just a lack of good SL's. I tend to try to join clan tagged squads if there is room as I know there will be a level of teamwork and cooperation.

I'm not comfortable SL'ing myself, but always want to be a part of a good squad to listen, participate, and contribute. It's just hit and miss (lately seems to be more misses than hits) when hopping into squads these days.

Teamwork is easy - leadership is hard (and often hard to find).

[LegioX]

I squadlead so much and give orders/requests/spot/plan so much that I sometimes forget I have a gun. But nevertheless, my squad always kicks ***, why? Because its not how many guns you have, its how well you use the ones you have. Because I love the tactical aspect of the game much more than the combat aspect, so its always awesome if I can find a game where at least all the SL's use mumble, so I can yell at them and don't have to be the only squad doing all the work. One game, I think its a failure in communication, we were getting out *** whooped but the Germans on Silent Eagle.
My squad: 55 kills 25 deaths, destroyed 2 tanks (we got lucky), 3 AFV's, and 1 helo, enemy defensive FOB's twice, built 3 FOB's (they were the only ones in the game for our side), captured central village twice, and killed a whole lot of infantry.
Other squads: totals less than a third of my squad's points, kept losing the hill, keep losing heavy assets, and scattered like noobs.

[Farks]

This isn't anything new. Everybody thinks their ideas are superior and that everything would be perfect if everybody just agreed and followed it.

The gamer mentality has always been "what I want, when I want it" because games appeal to us in that way. You play a game because you want to and even with the games own rules and limitations in mind you still only have to follow your own intentions. No authority, no external preassure, just you and your game. But when we play online in teamwork based games such as PR, a conflict of interest suddenly appears because of this attitude. You may want to do X, but your authority says you have to do Z, etc. And this creates a potential dilemma where you have to choose between being part of the group, follow the games rules/authority and do what you're supposed to do, but it might be something you don't like, or you could do what you really want to do and get the satisfaction you want, but you will be breaking the rules of the game and most likely get rejected by the group.

[guru951]

I by no means expect that EVERYONE will follow this suggestion that I have posted here. That would be a ridiculous expectation.

I find it ridiculous when I find a clan or squad that doesn't realize the impact they would have if they joined the SAME Ventrilo/Teamspeak/Mumble channel as the rest of the team. Rather they feel that they only need to make sure their squad is running top notch and hope the best for the rest of the team.

I'm just suggesting that we make the use of outside VOIP programs a more known and widely used method of gaming in PR. Typically I find that unless it's Mumble than people tend to shy away or down it and hence not use it. Ventrilo and Teamspeak are excellent programs that achieve the same goal.
It's always such a let down to be playing on a team that has a empty voip channel. It 99% or so of the time ends in a loss. But I find that when I'm in the team that is "stacked" it is a freakin great time and we whoop *** 99% of the time. Imagine what a game would be like, outside of a tournament, if both channels were full most of the time. The games would be ridiculously funner than they already are. It doesn't seem to me like its that big of a task to get a larger amount of the community on the ball with this idea. This would definitely end the "team stacking" non-sense complaints.

There is only one advantage of using VOIP programs. COMMUNICATION! Superior Communication! and that's what gives winning rounds and extremely fun games. Not to say that PR is not fun on it's own because it is.
But when you are working on a more realistic level of a multi-squad level than you realize the potential that this game offers. I think that was, is and always will be the true ideal of this game and the community.

Yes, I understand that not all who need to read this will and not all who read this will listen. But I know that this will affect some and that is what matters. Because when you assist one, two or three people to see a brighter light than they too will motivate others to do the same.

And, Furst, I commend you on your posts. You are definitely an advocate and an ally.

[Pedz]

As an avid squad leader I do find it sometimes annoying when im trying to work closely with a squad and there is no commander(as most of the time there is not) and I cannot communicate with them without typing. This usually leads to a quick death as an insurgent, or otherwise, comes round the corner and kills me. This is why mumble is a useful tool. It can be used by all (even slow internet speeds, I live in rural Britain the speeds are awful but I get by), and it promotes talking to others and working together rather than 'rambo'ing', or attempting to run back to your squad on your own/hold ground. Even if your left behind after your squad has all died, just running and finding the closest mumble squad and hanging with them till the rest catch up, can save tickets and you get to work with more people and assist them by informing them of what just happened to your squad.

[DenvH]

As an avid squad leader I do find it sometimes annoying when im trying to work closely with a squad and there is no commander(as most of the time there is not) and I cannot communicate with them without typing. This usually leads to a quick death as an insurgent, or otherwise, comes round the corner and kills me. This is why mumble is a useful tool. It can be used by all (even slow internet speeds, I live in rural Britain the speeds are awful but I get by), and it promotes talking to others and working together rather than 'rambo'ing', or attempting to run back to your squad on your own/hold ground. Even if your left behind after your squad has all died, just running and finding the closest mumble squad and hanging with them till the rest catch up, can save tickets and you get to work with more people and assist them by informing them of what just happened to your squad.

In that situation, mumble is indeed the best. I find myself playing more, if not only on servers that force mumble. It's like 10x more effective and fun, being a medic it saves quite a lot of epipens trying to revive a dead guy as well. It's a relieve to finally be able to speak to the blue guy and in my opinion it should be merged into PR but there's other treads on that one.

As for pubbers not understanding "proper" teamwork, I think it's not that bad. Overall there is a good number of players that play as a squad, which is the first step. When a squad sticks together and follows orders, they rely on the SL to work together with the other squads if you ask me. Now at SL level the communications, within PR itself, to other squads are limited to chat and the commander. The chat gets messed up more then often and your message will not always be read ect so my conclusion is that with the limits of the BF2 voip system, there must either be a commander doing it's job or a 3rd party program that enables SL's to talk to each other like mumble or teamspeak for "Proper Teamwork" to work.

[Furst]

I by no means expect that EVERYONE will follow this suggestion that I have posted here. That would be a ridiculous expectation.

i dont expect it either... but unfortunately it also seems that the main idea and concept behind this thread is completely misunderstood by most people. the majority of the answers leads into the wrong direction.

every person responding here seems to have pretty much of a clue about the game at all. they all know how to work as a squad and use or choose the tools of communication which they think is most efficient for them.

...and thats where the problem arise: the addressees are those who do not understand it or simply do not want to understand it. its for those players who start flaming and almost force stopping the game by screaming, shouting and accusing in the global chat for ages, because the enemy team seems to be sooo overpowered caused by the use of external communication (assumption caused by clan / community prefixes). whether newbie or advanced players.

maybe its because only a handful of people reading the forums ever got in touch with that situation.
edit: or they do not read the thread properly

[=]H[=[Amish]Kommando]

Unless you have some sort of leverage you can not make other people do what you want.

[=]H[=CubCadet1972]

I squadlead so much and give orders/requests/spot/plan so much that I sometimes forget I have a gun. But nevertheless, my squad always kicks ***, why? Because its not how many guns you have, its how well you use the ones you have. Because I love the tactical aspect of the game much more than the combat aspect, so its always awesome if I can find a game where at least all the SL's use mumble, so I can yell at them and don't have to be the only squad doing all the work. One game, I think its a failure in communication, we were getting out *** whooped but the Germans on Silent Eagle.
My squad: 55 kills 25 deaths, destroyed 2 tanks (we got lucky), 3 AFV's, and 1 helo, enemy defensive FOB's twice, built 3 FOB's (they were the only ones in the game for our side), captured central village twice, and killed a whole lot of infantry.
Other squads: totals less than a third of my squad's points, kept losing the hill, keep losing heavy assets, and scattered like noobs.

You and I think alike. I've gone whole rounds firing less than a handful of rounds down range.
Add Vent, mumble or TS to the mix, and you have a team that can not be beaten. The players that are joining now are more in it for personal glory, rather than the team in general.


"My squad is my weapon"


PS: To any DEV reading this, I'd really like it if you made an AAS mode for Ramiel for Christmas. I've been good this year.

[BenHamish]

As a pure pubber, there is just a lack of good SL's. I tend to try to join clan tagged squads if there is room as I know there will be a level of teamwork and cooperation.

I'm not comfortable SL'ing myself, but always want to be a part of a good squad to listen, participate, and contribute. It's just hit and miss (lately seems to be more misses than hits) when hopping into squads these days.

Teamwork is easy - leadership is hard (and often hard to find).

Canuck mate, we all prefer to be 'led' rather than lead, but look between your legs, recognise you have testicles, and behave accordingly.

I'm beginning to SL, as a 'newly' experienced player, and like everything else it just requires practise.

The biggest PIA is dealing with bad squad members, in terms of people who basically troll your squad for weapons or security but really lone-wolf. I'm still learning how to deal with them.

Come join the ranks of those willing to take the next step though, we NEED ya!


EDIT - Btw I think mumble is essential, with all the other SL's on it. It brought a huge grin to my face as Ins on Karbala when we started acting like a team and swarming on the enemy.

Also, I'm starting to realise that as mentioned a good Squad Leader is really a radio-man/comms guy, (as well as telling his squad where to go). I seem to spend 50% of my time on the Map screen, and the other 50% directing my squad and communicating/spotting to other SL's - It's not all a bayonet charge

[Cassius]

I strongly disagree with that.

I've never been in a clan, never wanted to, and never plan to join one, and I've still been able to find a great deal of teamwork and success playing with people I don't know.

To be honest, I've often seen less teamwork from clans, who simply create their own special clan locked squad, and then ignore requests from other squads and the commander, since they only cooperate with eachother.



Uh, yeah, it would be.
I've done exactly that before, and it was a lot of fun.

I am not in a clan per se, even if I wear a tag. I play regularly on the same 2 servers, with many people who do the same.

However I must agree that I have sometimes seen more willingness to cooperate from people not in a clan than from people in a clan, who will oftentimes only aknowledge clanmates or people they know well, however most pub games have been disastrous as far as coordination is concerned.

[ma21212]

The thing I would like to see is that clans (and friends) stop using clan tags, it intimidates other players, for example when ever I play with my friends (tbh I never play PR w/o friends) we never use the same tags (were all in the PRT in NATO) but each one of us has something different, one uses NATO tags, the other uses a former clan tag, the other 2 dont use tags.

[Zoddom]

The thing I would like to see is that clans (and friends) stop using clan tags, it intimidates other players, for example when ever I play with my friends (tbh I never play PR w/o friends) we never use the same tags (were all in the PRT in NATO) but each one of us has something different, one uses NATO tags, the other uses a former clan tag, the other 2 dont use tags.

no one forces you to not use clan tags. if you dont use them, you wont get teamswitched as easily as with clan tag. its much better for an admin to manage a team which uses clan tags, cause he knows who belongs to who.
if someones annoyed by clan tags then hes probably a total online shooter newbie, and then its totally normal.

[Furst]

The thing I would like to see is that clans (and friends) stop using clan tags, it intimidates other players, for example when ever I play with my friends (tbh I never play PR w/o friends) we never use the same tags (were all in the PRT in NATO) but each one of us has something different, one uses NATO tags, the other uses a former clan tag, the other 2 dont use tags.

i would prefer a modification of your basic idea. the perfect solution for me would be, that you can not see who is playing in the enemy team at all. all you know is the number of players, but not who is playing. killing two birds with one stone, eh? who cares about stats anyway?

...and to comment your suggestion a lil more: the concept of a smart- or switchlist would be totally obsolete then. not to mention the loss of overwiew and team management.