"Teamwork" really needed?

[Zpoilt]

So here is a very cool story about todays exciting gameplay!

Me and my pal Snarreman.inf was playing on the CIA Kokan 24/7 server, as hajjs. I was trying to form a squad to defend with but failed because we missed the start of the round. The russian in our squad didn't speak english and ran around opening all the cache doors. The rest of the squad didn't talk on VOIP. So, without communications I gave up and said, fuck it let's just.. wait for it to end. Eventually we won, with 2 caches left at the round's end. The teams seemed pretty balanced.

Next round, Blufor! At this point I was very tired of squad leading because I couldn't get any real teamwork going with all the non-communicating heroes (I use to call them idiots) So instead of leading another group of Snarreman + 4 retards I made a Retard squad, called SUPERSPECOPS, and locked it with only me and Snarreman in it. Whenever I see such a squad I just laugh at it and say "HAHA Look at the retards in squad 6! 2 guys and locked HAHAHA they FAIL at PR! You need teamwork for this game HAHAHA!"

Anyway, I told Snarreman this time we would try something new. We would ignore the fact that we are playing Project Reality, adapt a very non-realistic super offensive rush tactics similar to vBF2 with only the two of us constantly rushing towards the caches at high speed with expendable humvees. Hah, yea let's fuckin do it! he said. Here is how it went:

1st cache

So I got me a C4 kit and Snarreman grabbed a medic. We got a humvee, waited for intel and just drove straight to the cache as soon as it turned red on the map, not stopping for anything. Facing almost no resistance due to sneakyness we were able to take it out (by planting C4 on the outside wall of the cache building, haha (please fix this, seriously)) Only 1 enemy there resisting us. Didn't even have to kill him.

2nd cache was killed by the others, good job!

3rd cache

Immediately headed for the southern VCP to regroup (with only 2 guys in the squad, regrouping wasn't that hard!) Second cache was a little harder; Just west of the VCP. We moved in aggresively with enemy AKs! Firing like gangstas we cleared the entire compound of 6 enemies + reinforcements rolling in on bikes and everything. Got the cache, got out. Had some help from Lt.Quint, I recall. Thanks man!

4th cache

New humvee, new ammo. Rolled in fast directly towards it in the centre of the map. Killed a couple of them on our way, managed to find the cache already damaged by something. It got destroyed by 2 Incendiaries. Didn't make it out as all the "defending" enemies rushed in AFTER the cache was long gone and wasted us both.

5th cache

Respawn, another humvee attacking the new known. Our team had failed on getting this for quite some time. They were lined up around it in a big half-moon formation, getting killed or unable to move due to suppression. It was heavily defended by the enemy. We just rolled right in with the humvee and managed to get inside a building for cover. We went in shooting our way through litteraly holding down mouse button 1 like idiots. Just the 2 of us against what seemed like the entire enemy team! I took a bullet to the head after finding the cache and giving it's position to Snarreman, and without giving up hope on snarreman.inf, the craziest infantryman I have ever known to play PR, somehow he managed to kill 4-5 guys on top of it, throw 4 incendiaries 15 feet with his own and my kit, destroying the cache and getting the hell out of there ALIVE with the humvee. That was the 5th cache we managed to take down on our own, out of 7. But is this the end of our ownage? No!

6th and 7th cache

New known, far up north. Unknown spotted just outside main to the East. I said let's go for the known, no one will be there. No one at known? That turned out to be exactly right! We faced 3 hostiles, took them down, got the cache and rushed towards the final cache with the rest of the team. Did participate in the destroying of it, however not able to solo it

Me and Snarreman were just ROFLing our asses of throughout the round and after. 2 man super duper squad, recieved alot of cheering in the chat (mostly from ourselves but whatever). Why bring a squad of 6 when 2 are just enough, with more flexibility and speed instead of greater firepower? Sure during some of the encounters the rest of the team acted target dummies. But sometimes we really were all alone against the enemy team. Is it really necessary to drag around a pack of retarded roleplayers every time you play PR? Super aggressive roflgaming seemed to work just as fine if the two of you know how to use your guns. I can't belive I havent' tried this shit before. Maybe this is'nt the way the game "should be played" but if it works then more people will find it useful and maybe that's a bad thing? I mean, this is supposed to be a military simulator where you have to use realistic gameplay to win.

I don't really know what to make of all this. Were we doing a good job, or were we destroying the PR experience?

[Spec]

You did a good job, imo. The enemy failed at stopping you. It's not that hard to take out two infantrymen.

Yes, the enemy fails quite often. But when both teams are actually playing at a higher level of teamwork, a two man squad won't be able to win the map alone. Stealth is not useless at all, but it's not the only thing there is.

Your point is valid though, pubbers need to be moar teamworky. Though especially the insurgent team sadly is often seen as "meh" by many good players who then switch over to the coalition. (With exceptions, of course!)

[Tartantyco]

Ah, lack teamwork succeeds due to lack of teamwork.

[HunterMed]

Ah, lack teamwork succeeds due to lack of teamwork.

exactly.

Still special ops squads can achieve much but with some training and discipline (like in tournament battles).

I'd hate to see people waiting in main though because you used "expendable" hmmvs to do exactly that. Rush in and then most of the time just die... (not in your case it seems)

[BenHamish]

Ahh, I've always thought that you could royally take the piss with any game if you wanted, vBF2 especially, and PR if you know what you're doing. (No offense meant, I never said I was above it myself!).

I have noticed on some insurgency maps that even with no comms between squads, the 'hive mind' becomes active, and despite giving away the Unknowns through retarded spawning a mediocre Blue team can get hammered by the lonewolfing Insurgents (once they lose their tank/Warriors).

Another way to take the mickey is to play Kokan as pilot, just using the Kiowa as an airtank. I've played a few games where the pilot has hovered above caches and destroyed them, despite heavy resistance (he was just dodging RPG's with l33t flying skills, and to be fair to him, it worked).


Whether it's repeatable as a tactic however is a different story. Another server, another day and the other team may be co-ordinated. I played PRTA last night and Blufor was raining down, they had a full-team convoy of vehicles! Also, they took out one of our caches with a lonewolf soldier who sneaked in under the noses of about 10 very bored Insurgents. Hell descended on him when he ran out of Incendaries, lol. But they whooped us.

[Zpoilt]

Well I suppose we managed to go through with our tactics partly because of bad opponents. But we didn't feel lucky or anything special that day. Teams seemed even and everything was pretty much played as normal. The reason me and Snarreman only play on the american servers is because we feel the american players are generally more fun to play with because they all speak english and therefor play alot better and are easier to coordinate. So bad opponents? Bad teamwork? All I can say is this seemed like a regular round on an American (a good) server

I think we succeeded because people in this game are given so many options and alternatives that they create random missions for themselves and getting sucked into the whole roleplaying thing, forgetting the real objective in this game; caches.

[Furst]

im pretty confused by the definition and interpretation of teamwork by many players. its not exactly concerning you, Zploit, since your squad or teammates avoided proper teamplay and not you.

examples of what i think could be teamwork:

- provide intel by marking threats and objectives on the map
- build FOBs
- prevent your team running into ambushes and threatening situations by announcing your sitrep
- provide ammunition and supply support
- support heavy assets by covering their flanks when moving into dangerous areas
- provide covering fire for engaging squads
- communicate with the team to understand whats going on and where you are needed
- defend and cover important areas and objectives
- scout and patrol instead of rushing to the frontline with assets
- provide AA support by escorting heavy assets

i miss things like these very often. in addition, its much more astonishing to me that people who are uninspired or have no clue of what to do with their presence in the team never get any of these ideas written above. none of this is that absurd, isnt it? all of these examples can be very interesting, intense and effective. most of them arent even time-consuming at all and can be done along the way. most of these things can be done by a squad of two players.

however, to get more ontopic again and connect to the headline of the thread i'd say that teamwork is needed. teamwork in my opinion consists pretty much of the things ive written above and its really enjoyable and thrilling to play in a team with those abilities.
it doesnt matter if you win or lose, its about having a great gaming experience by extending the game's features and possibilities.

[Zpoilt]

im pretty confused by the definition and interpretation of teamwork by many players. its not exactly concerning you, Zploit, since your squad or teammates avoided proper teamplay and not you.

examples of what i think could be teamwork:

- provide intel by marking threats and objectives on the map
- build FOBs
- prevent your team running into ambushes and threatening situations by announcing your sitrep
- provide ammunition and supply support
- support heavy assets by covering their flanks when moving into dangerous areas
- provide covering fire for engaging squads
- communicate with the team to understand whats going on and where you are needed
- defend and cover important areas and objectives
- scout and patrol instead of rushing to the frontline with assets
- provide AA support by escorting heavy assets

i miss things like these very often.

We were avoiding proper teamplay, you say? Doing NONE of these things you state above, we managed to take down 5 of the 7 caches on our own. Just 2 guys, using completely insane and unrealistic strategies. The rest of the team were too busy doing "proper teamplay". They seemed completely unaware of the fact that there is only 1 real objective as BLUFOR: The Cache.

So now I've come to think of this "Proper teamplay" as complete nonsense. Alot of it is just a waste of time, time is a waste of tickets (since everybody keep dying or getting wounded) and ticketloss equals FAIL. But then again, this seems to be what PR is all about. Wasting time on fobs, and chasing after ammo cars through the grass. Calling in mortar missions and correcting fire. Calling for CAS on the enemy bunker, etc etc. And while this is kinda fun and cool, all you REALLY have to do is to get your *** out of the damn foxhole and go get that cache! That's proper teamplay... Isn't it?

[dtacs]

all you REALLY have to do is to get your *** out of the damn foxhole and go get that cache! That's proper teamplay... Isn't it?

Success of the objective isn't teamwork. 'Its how you get there, not what the final result is'

There can be teamwork which leads to failure, but its still teamwork.

using completely insane and unrealistic strategies. The rest of the team were too busy doing "proper teamplay". They seemed completely unaware of the fact that there is only 1 real objective as BLUFOR: The Cache.

Honestly I'd prefer a round where we get our asses kicked but were working together, instead of the round where ninjas win the match, and I think most people would agree with me on that point.

[Zpoilt]

Success of the objective isn't teamwork. 'Its how you get there, not what the final result is'

There can be teamwork which leads to failure, but its still teamwork.


Honestly I'd prefer a round where we get our asses kicked but were working together, instead of the round where ninjas win the match, and I think most people would agree with me on that point.

IMO teamwork that leads to failure is not teamwork, it's just failure. Plain and simple

If it is true that most people think like you on this one, then it all makes sense to me; No wonder BLUFOR sucks if the team isn't even trying to win.

[boilerrat]

The part where you didn't kick your fail squad members is where you failed as a squad leader.

You need to keep your members in line, if they don't play correctly they should be kicked.

[Furst]

We were avoiding proper teamplay, you say? Doing NONE of these things you state above, we managed to take down 5 of the 7 caches on our own.

wrong, you didnt read my post carefully or i might have expressed myself a little incomprehensible. first of all, i wrote that my post does NOT concern you completely, but the squad or team that surrounded you. secondly, why should i blame you for bad play? you seem to have achieved all your goals without that many casualties.

to make it more simple: what i wrote is addressed to the people who hang around clueless and somehow waste a valuable player slots.

[Furst]

Honestly I'd prefer a round where we get our asses kicked but were working together, instead of the round where ninjas win the match, and I think most people would agree with me on that point.

full acknowledgement! victory or defeat.. i dont care, as long as the match was good and fulfilled all the attributes that i appreciate in PR. thats why i play it, im not interested in any other style of gameplay, otherwise i would play some other game where its not that much about playing and acting as a team including its complexity, i guess.

[goguapsy]

I do what you did.

But with 6 people, so we can face tougher enemies.

You know, one can only fire at one person at a time, except he has a grenade.

Which is hard to kill everyone because there are simply too many.


Strength in numbers.



EDIT: More fun getting pwned with another squad over mumble than getting ub3r-1337 high number of kills as a squad alone.

[Zegel]

dtacs said it best when he said that he would prefer a round where the team loses yet is in total sync, working together over nine locked two-man squads whoopin' ***. But, then again, I see his name (and a lot of others in this thread) on Tactical Gamer a lot of the time I play, and teamwork on that server goes far beyond a single six-man squad using VOIP with each other.

As an insurgent on TG, the only way caches get consistently taken down is when the blue force comes in with 18+ bodies with stryker cover. Also when undiscovered caches get accidentally stumbled upon.

Sometimes I do find that SL'ing a full squad as blue force on an insurgency map can be a bit cumbersome, and prefer to roll with only four.

If you and your buddy take this type of ownage to TG and it still flies.. then I'll be impressed. Until that happens, no, I don't think you've undermined the mechanics/gameplay PR espouses. Besides, I bet it was hella fun.

[mat552]

"Teamwork" in the context of the horrible blue blob usually loses Insurgency rounds. You and your friend took the logical approach and made the most of your resources (competent players)

If you and your buddy take this type of ownage to TG and it still flies.. then I'll be impressed.

People, myself included, do this all the time. It works especially well when we circle around behind and punch the cache in the back while the blob throw themselves forward in a frontal assault.

Your skills as a small, limited squad must increase directly with the skill of the players defending the cache, that's all there is to it. Fire discipline, map knowledge, and intel are crucial to the success of any ninja operation, you just need more of them on TG.

[Zegel]

"It works especially well when we circle around behind and punch the cache in the back while the blob throw themselves forward in a frontal assault.

That's my point. On TG, you're going up against 25+ insurgents pretty much every time you go for a cache. A lone spec-ops and a medic, no matter how disciplined and sneaky they are, will never pull that off. Not without the blue blob, or in other words, a coordinated team.

EDIT: TG isn't the only place for teamwork. It's just the only place for teamwork if you're in North America (No offense =]H[= dudes ) My ping doesn't fair to well over the pond. Besides, most Austrians/Europeans are asleep at 5am.

[Herbiie]

PRTA is the same as TG for teamwork so guys stop saying "On TG" Like it's the only place there's Team work UKWF has good Team Work most of the time too (Don't play on many other servers)

"The Blue Blob" isn't good, because there's no point in having more than one Squad! For e.g. played a round of Karbala on PRTA, within minutes we'd taken out a cache using mortars fire support & several strike teams moving into the area from different directions, I believe we only lost about 6/7 wounded & 0 Dead despite it being covered in IEDs, Mines, and Insurgents taking shots at us. (Uploading a video nao!)

But back to the point - team work is needed. Team work would of easily stopped your l33t 2 man "spec ops" squad, but people tend to give up with insurgents because they're not conventional and you have to think differently to the conventional guys.

but I agree with lots of people I enjoy teamwork & that, infact I think I prefer losing but having great teamwork, or at least hopeless stand stands etc. they always seem more fun, I think many will agree if they think about it, the fun times you have in PR is that moment when disaster strike & you get landed in a hot LZ, hearing the bullets ping off the helicopter, you jump out & some one goes down, rush to cover popping smoke etc. 'tis good fun!

[mat552]

People, myself included, do this all the time.

Your skills as a small, limited squad must increase directly with the skill of the players defending the cache, that's all there is to it. Fire discipline, map knowledge, and intel are crucial to the success of any ninja operation, you just need more of them on TG.

That's my point. On TG, you're going up against 25+ insurgents pretty much every time you go for a cache. A lone spec-ops and a medic, no matter how disciplined and sneaky they are, will never pull that off. Not without the blue blob, or in other words, a coordinated team.

I think you misunderstood. While having a blue blob at the front is nice, it isn't by any stretch required. It's helpful, sure, but not required. What is required is an even head and a steady finger, and you'll ninja 6 times out of 10. People run into trouble when they misidentify contacts, get jumpy, or what have you and give themselves away.

The trick to ninjaing a cache is catching your enemy off guard. If they're entrenched all over; low speed, low visibility, etc are required. If they're entrenched in lightly, or only right next to the cache building, rushing right in is usually the right way to go. You don't even need to exploit the C4 mechanics, just bring two shotguns or automatic weapons.

It's easy in theory, hard in game. Practice makes perfect. I still say that the large blob of bluefor is just going to get pinned down and destroyed before they get anywhere useful most of the time.

TG might not be the only place to get teamwork, but it is the only place I've found for consistent teamwork.

Edit:

There's nothing wrong with not going for the ninja, but it's usually necessary to put an end to those insurgency rounds that just draaaaaag ooooon for hours. It's all fun and whatnot, but spending 150 tickets to assault one cache is how you lose. I caution everyone to remember that bluefor cannot win on kills. Going 3450K-350D as a team means you still lose.

[dtacs]

IMO teamwork that leads to failure is not teamwork, it's just failure. Plain and simple

Seriously? Hypothetical: There are two squads platoon'ing. All members are on mumble, and they work solely as a group with a platoon commander. Now, they move up to a cache with one squad working as fire support/recon and another assaulting. They all die, but got sight of the cache and are working on a second go. Is that not teamwork? Did their failure constitute the whole operation meaningless?

PRTA is the same as TG for teamwork so guys stop saying "On TG" Like it's the only place there's Team work

That isn't true, but usually its the fault of non-English speaking players. I just raged about 5 minutes ago from PRTA after our squad was carrying the team on capping flags while they sat on the edge of docks on a firebase, doing absolutely nothing. At many different points we had docks neutral (as MEC), but the team wasn't pushing up. I know its not usual for PRTA to be like this, but the rather large influx of eastern European players has caused a change around this time. Give it a few hours and the western Europe players should be on.