.95 Armor

[Nebsif]

This thread is like "western tanks, even the abrams (lol) are invincible and should take 1kk ap shells to destroy..." w/o any sauce.

[ytman]

Is this the area to talk about the ticket disparity between certain assets and their actually gameplay value?

Best example:

M113 = Styker = BTR-90 <<<<<< MTLB ATGM
Light APC = APC = IFV [All Less than] Light APC w/ old AT capabilities (no thermals)


Another Example:

Supply Truck = Transport Truck = Human Being = VN-3 Batcar

[Hunt3r]

This thread is like "western tanks, even the abrams (lol) are invincible and should take 1kk ap shells to destroy..." w/o any sauce.

This is actually more like "Any tank with blowout ammo storage shouldn't instantly die if you sneeze on it"

The Ukrainians will get this overpowered realism if they're ever a faction in PR.

T-72s and T-80s will send their turrets flying for any variant that has the carousel autoloader. Leopard 2s will send their turrets flying if the hull ammunition is detonated, unless more recent variants have rectified this issue. Pretty much the single biggest cause of any one-shot kills in tanks are from detonation of ammo in tanks that don't seal off the ammo rack from the crew compartment.

Crewmen pretty much have to be killed off by spall or direct hits by shells, unless an artillery shell comes smashing through the turret roof.

Sure I don't have a source, but it doesn't take much to say that today's MBTs are pretty heavily armored if a tandem 105mm HEAT warhead can only penetrate the sides and lower hull of a CR2 or M1A2 SEP. I just think that it should take lots of shells to defeat a tank from it's strongest point.

And yes, I think it's necessary to look at the ticket value of some assets, a BTR-80 is worth far less than a BTR-80A, and a VN3 is worth a lot more than a jeep.

[ShockUnitBlack]

My current classification of combat vehicles relevant to the discussion, in order of value (in response to yt's post) -

MBT - Self-explanatory.

Infantry Fighting Vehicle (Bradleys, BMPs, Namers, LAVs, WZ551s with autocannons, etc). An APC with an autocannon, quite possibly a TOW, and enough seats for an entire infantry squad. The Namer has heavy enough armour to be classified here.

Tank Hunters (BRDM-2s with Spandrels, AT MT-LBs). Vehicles with TOWs or similar weapons and nothing else.

APC (Stryker, M113s, BTRs, AAV7PA1s, .50 cal MT-LBs, etc). Defined by me as a vehicle with enough seats for an entire infantry squad and a .50 cal weapon or similar (which is generally not exposed to fire).

Armoured Car (VN-3s, BRDM-2s, etc). Defined by me as an Infantry Mobility Vehicle without an exposed gunner. Requires a crewman kit (something I disagree with, to be honest).

Infantry Mobility Vehicle (HMMWVs, Chinese FAVs, Land Rovers, Technicals, etc). Defined by me as a vehicle with a .50 cal gun or similar, an exposed gunner, and too few seats for an entire infantry squad.

Vehicles I'm not sure how to classify -
The BTR-80A and 30mm MT-LB - their weapon are too powerful to make them APCs but they're probably too weak to be called Infantry Fighting Vehicles.

The Scimitar - doesn't fall into any of the above categories (two-man crew with only an autocannon as a weapon).

The TOW HMMWV - an anti-tank vehicle that doesn't require a crewman kit.

CROWS HMMWV - doesn't require a crewman kit but falls into the Armoured Car category.

Loads of other vehicles I can't think of off the top of my head.

[Hunt3r]

Light vehicles should cost 5 tickets, so any vehicle that weighs less than 10 tons is automatically this. Any vehicle that's in the 10-20 ton range should cost 10 tickets. Any vehicle in the 20-30 ton range is 13, any in the 30-40 range is 15, any in the 40-60 range is 20. So this would basically set anything that makes infantry motorized be worth about 10 tickets, anything that makes a light mechanized unit is around 15, anything that makes a heavy mechanized unit is 20.

Anything that's not bigger than a Stryker is worth 5 tickets, anything about as big as a Stryker is 10, anything about as big as a Bradley is 15, anything about as big as an Abrams is 20.

[KnightFandragon]

Well, I DL'd this mod like 3 days ago and now that im actually playing it and figuring it out, im having great fun with it. However, the only real thing I dont like and would like to see changed or atleast an explantion as to why is the vehicles spontaneously combusting from out of nowhere and the Paper Mache vehicles. What im talking about is how when my Uncle and I crewed the Abrams, we go aways then stop to guard or take a post, I will commonly get out of the driver seat to man the AA 50cal for cover. However, after a few minutes our tank will light on fire and send us and our tank flying in various little parts all over the field. Next, the Paper Mache vehicles that im talking about is how easily these vehicles just fall apart and die. I was on Karbala driving a Stryker APC and there are center medians that appear to be not much higher then a normal US Curb and I drove up over one and next thing I know my right side is riding on rims because the curb apparently ripped my wheels off. That sorta makes sense but id think the US armywould not have a Vehicle that falls apart like Lincoln logs or legos to a curb. Also, I drove the same Stryker on Karbala and while looking for a back way into the city I found what I thought to be a suitable hole but instead I ran into a garbage can, a few small barrels or something and side swiped a building........I exploded trying to back up....I mean why do the vehicles just explode to the most minor collisions? Also, in Vanilla BF I hated how the vehicles would burn up and die at below 20 Health..I really wish it would just be done away with.......or be made ALOT slower so we actually have a chance to make it back to main base to repair seeings as we dont have field repair kits. This mod is awesome and after playing so many Run and Gun pointless shooters for so long its nice to finally have found a mod or something which is slower and ACTUALLY allows for teamplay since its not uber fast paced and whatever else RnG shooters are....

[dtacs]

What im talking about is how when my Uncle and I crewed the Abrams, we go aways then stop to guard or take a post, I will commonly get out of the driver seat to man the AA 50cal for cover. However, after a few minutes our tank will light on fire and send us and our tank flying in various little parts all over the field.

Re-read what you just said. You are either leaving something out (IE getting shot by a tank/HAT kit), or you simply made this up. To clarify:

> You get in tank
> You drive to a position and hold there, scanning for contact
> You get into the .50 cal
> A few minutes later, your tank sets on fire regardless of any environmental influence (IE enemies shooting you..) and your tank dies, with you in it.

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

I was on Karbala driving a Stryker APC and there are center medians that appear to be not much higher then a normal US Curb and I drove up over one and next thing I know my right side is riding on rims because the curb apparently ripped my wheels off.

I would assume you are talking about the walls in the middle of the road in this image? If so, when you go off on a sharp angle, the weight of the APC will shift making you significantly more top-heavy, and flipping it. The vehicle weight ratios are entirely realistic in PR bar the Canadian LAV-III. You cannot go off every single cliff or go over every obstacle expecting the vehicle to right itself. Explain this in more detail, or come to terms that you made a stupid mistake.

[KnightFandragon]

Well, my first part, I should add we had engaged some BMP's and a tank or two.....but after each engagement we would usually drive to North Bunker on Kashan. I then would drive in the bunker to ensure nothing could hit us.......then yes...I would hop in the 50cal and my tank would light up. Other times I would be sitting outside the wall and unless Tank rounds impacting my armor just make no sound at all then yes, I would be sitting there and my tank would light on fire. I would have my uncle check to see if the engine was smoking, which in Vanilla BF was a signifier of if we had taken alot of damage, see none, other then the dirt the tracks were throwing up. We then arrive with nothing going on, I would have the 50 zoomed looking for stuff, my uncle is scanning for tanks in the main gun and then we just light on fire, its as amazingly retarded and hard to believe as it is to say it happened but yeah...it does. I do know in Vanilla BF if ur vehicle got to like a little less then half the same thing would happen if someone was not in the drivers seat but still, I had figured this mod got rid of that seeings as it is a realism mod and tanks dont just ignite out of nowhere.

As for the Stryker, no, I did not go over any walls, I did not flip the vehicle. If you look in the middle of the road on Karbala...the Center Median in the middle of the road...I zig zagged from the left to right side of the road and drove over a center median, they are not that high, anyway once I did that my wheels on the right side came off.....If it wasnt that then idk what else coulda done it. I had stopped for a second then was told to go chase down a Technical going for factory...it was then I realized we had no wheels on the right side as the vehicle was tilted and driving in circles.....Once again, unless impacting Rockets and tank rounds make no sound, we didnt get shot at.

As for the wall, I was on the back side of the city looking for a rear way in that was not stright up main street. There was an alley in between 2 buildings and not those big gates that let us drive through, just 2 buildings seperated wide enough for the Stryker. I then slowed down, backed up and drove in, however, once I drove around the corner I realized I couldnt fit but was going fast enough I bumped the trash bin and I guess drove up on the small barrels. My uncle, who was gunning for me said there was a fence there as well. Realizing I was going nowhere I started to back up but then exploded, I guess bumping houses kills?

Yeah, I didnt make this up....I dont make up stupid stuff like this, it happened and im just as lost as everyone else. Ive even seen Humvees and British Jeeps just light on fire if you sit there to long, even manned.....

[dtacs]

Well, my first part, I should add we had engaged some BMP's and a tank or two.....but after each engagement we would usually drive to North Bunker on Kashan. I then would drive in the bunker to ensure nothing could hit us.......then yes...I would hop in the 50cal and my tank would light up. Other times I would be sitting outside the wall and unless Tank rounds impacting my armor just make no sound at all then yes, I would be sitting there and my tank would light on fire. I would have my uncle check to see if the engine was smoking, which in Vanilla BF was a signifier of if we had taken alot of damage, see none, other then the dirt the tracks were throwing up. We then arrive with nothing going on, I would have the 50 zoomed looking for stuff, my uncle is scanning for tanks in the main gun and then we just light on fire, its as amazingly retarded and hard to believe as it is to say it happened but yeah...it does. I do know in Vanilla BF if ur vehicle got to like a little less then half the same thing would happen if someone was not in the drivers seat but still, I had figured this mod got rid of that seeings as it is a realism mod and tanks dont just ignite out of nowhere.

In that case I would assume you were on black smoke, which after time (up to something like a couple of minutes) goes to fire, and after about 6 seconds of fire, explodes. Its simply impossible to not be on smoke, then suddenly explode.

As for the Stryker, no, I did not go over any walls, I did not flip the vehicle. If you look in the middle of the road on Karbala...the Center Median in the middle of the road...I zig zagged from the left to right side of the road and drove over a center median, they are not that high, anyway once I did that my wheels on the right side came off.....If it wasnt that then idk what else coulda done it. I had stopped for a second then was told to go chase down a Technical going for factory...it was then I realized we had no wheels on the right side as the vehicle was tilted and driving in circles.....Once again, unless impacting Rockets and tank rounds make no sound, we didnt get shot at.

Thats called being 'tracked' also known as a mobility kill. you were clearly hit by an RPG, IED or simply took too much terrain damage driving too aggressively. If you think something is clearly wrong with the mod, explain yourself properly. You weren't 'driving on your rims' at all.

As for the wall, I was on the back side of the city looking for a rear way in that was not stright up main street. There was an alley in between 2 buildings and not those big gates that let us drive through, just 2 buildings seperated wide enough for the Stryker. I then slowed down, backed up and drove in, however, once I drove around the corner I realized I couldnt fit but was going fast enough I bumped the trash bin and I guess drove up on the small barrels. My uncle, who was gunning for me said there was a fence there as well. Realizing I was going nowhere I started to back up but then exploded, I guess bumping houses kills?

A problem of the BF2 engine. A dynamic object (an object that interacts with its environment, IE a tank or an explosive barrel) glitches around when put between two static objects (EG a tree, buildings, railings etc.), the power simply doubles each time it hits the objects on its sides, causing it to take terrain damage extremely quickly and explode. Its happened to me on numerous occasions and its really unavoidable unless you specifically take caution to stay away from confined spaces.

One thing you will notice is that there are a significant amount of unrealistic things in PR. These are unavoidable, either to make gameplay (which is the most important thing, even over realism) more accessible, or it simply can't be edited. When it can't be edited, its called 'hardcoded'. Examples of hardcoded features are the VOIP system, and the maximum amount of people in vehicles (eight)

[KnightFandragon]

Hmmm.......I did not see any smoke...I have my settings on High.......it was weird for sure, cuz if we did have black smoke I certainly would have returned to base. There is a way to keep the tanks from blowing up and the change is quite simple in deed.......I have edited BF stats for weapons and vehiclesa little....there is a line that reads something like armor.hplostwhilecritical: 18....I simply change that to 0....it prevents the vehicle from blowing up like that, which I kinda wish would be changed or lowered to like 2 haha. As for the Stryker Mobility kill, I was actually not dead and drove around for like a minute or so more before the wheeless vehicle blew up, I was trying to make it back to base which is why the critical dmg should be set lower or to 0 to give us time ot make it back to base and have atleast a chance.. I saw a friendly bot stryker on the same map on my 1st day of this mod when I was testing stuff out...he did in fact have no wheels and was driving on round at an angle screaming for repairs. Do the impacts simply make no sounds?

[ma21212]

The MEC T72 should be replace with a T72B, its more "equal" to the the Abrams and more modern tanks in PR than the old T72 that MEC has.

[Rudd]

whats the difference between the two? both in equipment and in looks?

[ma21212]

I think the B version has better armor, reactive armor on the sides, 9M119 ATGM, a new cannon and a better FCS.

edit: and a new turret.

[Rudd]

I was kinda hoping your previous statement had some kind of sourced research behind it...

[Rhino]

The T-72M1M is the most appropriate version of the T-72 for the MEC according to our MAs.

[ma21212]

edit: forget what I said lol I did some more reading.

[Hunt3r]

T-72s should be able to stop APFSDS to the turret, and for realism, heavy Western MBTs should have this feature for the front glacis too, but all tanks should be easily killed by flank and rear shots to the hull and rear turret.

If this is about making tanks balanced by making them the same, I'd rather have them all behave as if it were an Abrams or Chally 2 in the way of mobility and armor.

[ytman]

I'd personally appritiate asymetrical armored battles.

The biggest amount of asymetry is seen if the IFV/APC landscape thought the tanks do have their fair share of differences. Really if any tank is 'lower' than another I suggest the mapper take this into account when deciding assets and maybe mix and match the two teams so that they each have weaknesses and strengths. Maybe even use terrain of a 'side' of a map to benifit a specific tank design....


Oh and I just want to say I approve of the TOW turret lock of the Bradely! I was still able to use the bradely as an effective tool today in Kashan on TG server. We came out with two bradelys dead but four tanks due to ATGMs

[Nebsif]

agree with ytman.. its cool when tanks feel different, as u'd not want every tank ingame to be an abrams u also dont want all the tanks to perform the same.
As I wrote in my leet thread, PR tanks are far from being as good as they are IRL due to engine limitations + to that there are fixable things like unrealistic 1 shot 1 kill hitboxes/materials and overall low armor like hunt3r wrote (can any modern MBT get destroyed by 10 normal RPG7 warheads?)

[KnightFandragon]

Worst thing about tanks and vehicles is how every little bump and minor dirt mound on the maps damages them.....I was driving the Merkava through Gaza streets and would tap a pot hole, damage....bump a car frame, damage.....Then in Kashan, the Abrams is probably half dead before im to the first post, the sand on that map kills. I can see fast driving and going over rough terrain wrecking a Humvee or the Jeeps and trucks but a tank, really...what does a pot hole do to a tank? Maybe a Panther or King TIger from WWII wrecking the drive train or front suspension, but modern tanks, im sure dont have that issue.

But just for the Record, the Merkava is like awesome, how many RPGs can the Abrams take? In game the Merkava takes like 7 hits, thats sweet lol. Merkava is a good tank.