Insurgent Missdirection

[mockingbird0901]

Give insurgent type factions homemade versions of wire or foxholes. Really how hard is it for them to dig a hole or pile up random junk. Also if a HMG nest is too heavy, why not make a LMG nest? I'm sure an experienced insurgent could figure out how to set one up. Deployable assets require people to work together and are fun to use. Plus who doesn't want to defend their homeland from defences they made from hand?

I was thinking just the same thing the other day. Being that they would be using stuff they would find, it wouldnt be as fast to build, nor as effective, but it would be possible.

[Rudd]

Well you see a lot of maps in the community section, but if no body puts them in their map list or it won't be included in a patch why should we bother to make a map that won't be played at all?

Ghost Recon, have you had some kind of traumatic head injury recently?

When a map is finished and of acceptable quality, it goes in the mod; not before.

I spent alot of free time advising and helping community mappers, so sort out your attitude.

[Bob of Mage]

I was thinking just the same thing the other day. Being that they would be using stuff they would find, it wouldnt be as fast to build, nor as effective, but it would be possible.

Don't forget that if the insurgents could take some unlucky guy's car, add it to the pile and set it on fire. The burnt wreck (plus maybe a few other cars) would make a nice core from which to build around. If anything the insurgent barrier could be much denser than a roll of wire plus some tank traps. It would hopeful last longer than 10 second when faced with a single infantryman and a magic nade of super fire.

[Pronck]

Don't forget that if the insurgents could take some unlucky guy's car, add it to the pile and set it on fire. The burnt wreck (plus maybe a few other cars) would make a nice core from which to build around. If anything the insurgent barrier could be much denser than a roll of wire plus some tank traps. It would hopeful last longer than 10 second when faced with a single infantryman and a magic nade of super fire.

They should make it so that only fire from mortars, armored vehicles or c4 could destroy it.

[Bob of Mage]

Super fire should still work but it takes like five nade for one barrier. There could be a lighter barrier which function just like wire and a heavy barrier full of car wrecks. The light barrier's job would be to stop people, while the heavy barriers are meant for tanks and cost more (mostly in time and effort).

[ToonS]

Being able to deploy barriers would be a fantastic addition for the insurgents.
Yes, they should be stronger then the wire barricade, but you should be able to jump over them. They should not be a means to completely block off an area to infantry, just to slow them down and to provide some cover.
I don't think deployable mg's are needed though.

As for insurgency mode as a whole, I quite enjoy it as it is. Yes there is the issue of people lone wolfing, useless squads doing useless things, spawning on and giving away unknown caches, and just generally being yards. But honestly, some of this happens in aas to.
It changes from round to round. And probably server to server.

A lot of the arguments that I've read so far relating to the game mode/faction/weapons really don't hold a lot of water to me. Honestly people, your an insurgent, not regular forces. If something does not work as you expected (tactic, weapon, vehicle) then you try something else. You make do with what is available.

Imho, the server the I predominantly play on I would say it is reasonably even as to who wins.

[Stoickk]

I like the idea of new deployables for insurgents, however the Devs have outlawed many of these ideas for insurgent factions, according to the disallowed suggestions list.

We are not allowed to suggest that the insurgents be given roadblocks or barricades of any kind, machine gun nests, and static antiaircraft emplacements, per the disallowed suggestions list in the PR suggestions forum. I do not know what release PR was at when that decision was made, but in all fairness, it might be time to revisit that decision.

Barricades alone would be extremely helpful to an insurgent team, and as one poster said earlier, how hard is it to stack up a bunch of junk?

As for a machine gun nest, it does not need to be set up like the conventional machinegun emplacement. A system similar to the recoilless rifle would work well. The weapon would have a limited arc of fire, but be able to traverse through 360 degrees in an open emplacement, making the position very vulnerable to grenades and small arms fire. Add limited magnification, as necessary to preserve balance, and you have a functional static. Fifty caliber/12.7mm machine guns have been in use for well over the last century, are hardly a modern marvel of technology, and finding a tripod mounting system for one in a third world country does not seem to stretch the boundaries of reality.

Another tweak to the insurgent team that would help greatly is currently in discussion in the PR Vehicle Feedback section. I am not attempting to hijack this thread, just trying to keep from multiposting. https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f254-v0-95-vehicles/94453-technicals-ammo-boxes.html Short version: Trade one seat in techies for a single ammo box. Read the full thread for pros and cons.

Changing the Insurgent faction to a kit request faction rather than a pickup kit faction will help as well. One of the biggest problems on an insurgent team is keeping an unknown cache hidden. Without fail, you get players spawning on an unknown to grab that kit and run after blufor. By changing the Insurgent faction to a kit request faction rather than a pickup kit faction, you eliminate a big chunk of the incentive to spawn at an unknown cache.

Changing the Insurgent team to a kit request faction will address a number of gameplay issues as well. Currently, if a Cell Leader leaves the game, the next player in line can not get a Cell Leader kit without dying and respawning, unless the outgoing player happened to have one. A player can not just grab a medic kit to heal or revive squad members, etc. Basic squad member functionality can not be accessed without a death (not a huge deal because tickets are irrelevant) and waiting on a respawn (can be a huge issue depending on respawn time, respawn point, and current transportation situation).

Other than this, there are some map-specific issues that need to be addressed, such as ammo techies that are set to not respawn, maps that do not have certain kits such as arty ied, and other things of that nature, but I think that this thread is more about the game mode as a whole, so I am attempting to keep my thoughts focused on that ideal.

Insurgency is by far my favorite game mode in PR, and I truly love it from both sides of the fence. It just needs some love.

[Pronck]

@Stoick +100, you know what we want! We had a topic about techies if i am right, it was about new types of techies for example: AA20mm on the back or an 88mm canon. And maybe they should make the kits only spawning at main or at the KNOWN cache, so you can only request them at the unknown cache/main/known cache although they won't spawn at the unknown.

[Rudd]

We are not allowed to suggest that the insurgents be given roadblocks or barricades of any kind, machine gun nests, and static antiaircraft emplacements, per the disallowed suggestions list in the PR suggestions forum. I do not know what release PR was at when that decision was made, but in all fairness, it might be time to revisit that decision.

you have missed the point of disallowed suggestions completely and utterly.
Already suggested suggestions are disallowed because we heard it the first time; but you don't understand what that means, it covers several possibilities.
1) the suggestion was ****
2) the suggestion cannot be done
3) the suggestion was good

regarding number 3, this means that if someone gets the time and effort to make the damned thing, I'll happen.
and regarding insurgent deployables, infering from my conversations with team members its number 3)

I'm getting a bad vibe towards the developers recently, please keep in mind the realities of modding.

Other than this, there are some map-specific issues that need to be addressed, such as ammo techies that are set to not respawn, maps that do not have certain kits such as arty ied, and other things of that nature, but I think that this thread is more about the game mode as a whole, so I am attempting to keep my thoughts focused on that ideal.

as far as I know each insurgency map should have at the very least 1 respawning ammo techie, several have a non respawning techie as well.

[Pronck]

@Rudd, and what is the reason for the arty IED kits not spawning on certain maps?

[Rudd]

tell me which maps lack them

[Pronck]

tell me which maps lack them

Karbala and Ramiel. They will never spawn.

[Rudd]

I'll add them

[Tim270]

Albasrah and Karbala are the only two I can think of without arty IED kits in the main. All the other ones either have them around the main spawn-points or request-able.


Edit; Ninja'd

[Rudd]

You're incorrect about al basrah

ObjectTemplate.setObjectTemplate 1 meinsurgent_engineer_pickup
ObjectTemplate.minSpawnDelay 300
ObjectTemplate.maxSpawnDelay 300

[Psyko]

Ghost Recon, have you had some kind of traumatic head injury recently?

When a map is finished and of acceptable quality, it goes in the mod; not before.

I spent alot of free time advising and helping community mappers, so sort out your attitude.

I've heard that you are one of those who really care about PR. You have spent loads of time on the public forums explaining stuff to people when theres a huge DEV forum where everything has been said time and again. but this is important stuff for the mod. All the devs combined would have scanned accross all the possible problems, but that doesnt mean they have talked to each other about it and that cumulativly everybody knows everything. so its better to hear it from the pubbies who spend more time playing than modding. every player is a tester, and testers are enoying soul sucking leaches. but its good to benifit from their whining. PR needs some optomisation before more stuff is chucked on the pile, dont you think? Id start with insurgency.

you have missed the point of disallowed suggestions completely and utterly.
Already suggested suggestions are disallowed because we heard it the first time; but you don't understand what that means, it covers several possibilities.
1) the suggestion was ****
2) the suggestion cannot be done
3) the suggestion was good

That doesnt mean that the DEVs revisit those ideas. once the ideas are thrown on the **** pile they get a stigma and reviting them can be met with drama, so it might discourage people from bringing them up again. im not saying it to you Rud, i'm saying to everyone.
pick and chose all the jobs you want but in the end of the day theres important stuff to be revised. how far off am i?
this is really the heart of the problem, you can only optomise insurgency like a dictator.

[Stoickk]

you have missed the point of disallowed suggestions completely and utterly.
Already suggested suggestions are disallowed because we heard it the first time; but you don't understand what that means, it covers several possibilities.
1) the suggestion was ****
2) the suggestion cannot be done
3) the suggestion was good

regarding number 3, this means that if someone gets the time and effort to make the damned thing, I'll happen.
and regarding insurgent deployables, infering from my conversations with team members its number 3)

I'm getting a bad vibe towards the developers recently, please keep in mind the realities of modding.



as far as I know each insurgency map should have at the very least 1 respawning ammo techie, several have a non respawning techie as well.

First off Rudd, my post was not intended as Dev bashing. I apologize that it came across that way. I am a blunt *******. I will continue to be one. Every time I have ever seen a disallowed suggestion posted onto any other forum the poster has been smacked a bit. Understandably so, as it is a disallowed suggestion. In all fairness, you can tell by my post count that I do not live on these forums, therefore, I have not read every thread of every forum. I spend most of my PR time out in the game world. I should probably get around to updating my signature, but anybody familiar to the TAR Texas server has probably been IED'ed by CPL [508th_PIR] Ice. That's me.

I truly love this game, and I love insurgency game play. I would just like to see the game mode get a little love too. I know you guys have your hands full. I am just trying to help the best way I can: hours and hours of testing and coherent feedback. I don't just play, I run local servers and actually test as well with clan members. This is the best way I know of to contribute to the community.

As for the non respawning ammo techies, I would ask you to give that one some thought. Insurgents are already shortchanged in the asset department. Is it really necessary to put a supply technical at the same value as an MBT or Bradley, which is the non-respawning Blufor vehicle in most insurgency maps?

Arty IED kits have been covered by a previous poster. Especially on maps with an armor layer, not having that kit available hurts the insurgents badly.

If the devs are not willing to make the Insurgent faction a full kit request faction would they be willing to at least allow civilian, warrior, and cell leader kits at the cache? The cache is a weapons dump, therefore, insurgents should be able to turn in their weapons and quit fighting there. Additionally, they should be able to grab an AK and an ammo bag or a throw away cell phone. Those three kits are just too vital to not be available at all times.

Rudd, I'm not trying to bash, I'm trying to help.

[Rudd]

Rudd, I'm not trying to bash, I'm trying to help.

its fine, and not really you, its just some other people are working themselves in to lathers over very small details and making assumptions about the DEV's intentions.

the thing about the ammo techie is that its supposed to encourage you to have fake caches etc, but your primary ammo suppy is still the cache.

The reasoning being is that the cache is the point of the gamemode and that insurgents are at their most effective when defending a cache.

If we put more ammo techies in, that becomes less prominent. But consider this please, the ammo techie has a respawn of 5 minutes...Tanks are 20....bradleys are 20. the non-respawn system is usually used to prevent catastrophic fail in the first few minutes, so if the first ammo techie goes boom, theres a new one in 5 minutes, if you keep the first one alive, good for you since you have 2 now until that first one is destroyed.

imo the pickup system wouldn't solve people spawning on purple caches...since they'd stil request kits there.

The cache system has serious problems that have been highlighted by new tactics of players. some in blufors favour others in opfor's favour. It takes super coders to find alternatives to it, so I wouldn't hold your breath there; but how can players actually assist and improve insurgency?

simple, if you see an inconsistency such as the lack of demo kits on a ins map, say so, if you play a round where there is a cache that is either impossible to attack or impossible to defend, post up and we'll move/remove it etc! I get the feeling that some people are getting really really riled up before posting about an issue with teh mistaken impression that the DEVs knew exactly how everything would play out.

[Psyko]

I get the feeling that some people are getting really really riled up before posting about an issue with teh mistaken impression that the DEVs knew exactly how everything would play out.

lets digress a bit. Insurgency is so complex now its hard not to talk about the overall picture without having to deal with specifics.

Rudd, what things would you change in the insurgency system? Im asking instead of assuming you'll air your opinion, as it seems the Devs walk on eggshells these days. I dont see why you's dont just throw ideas out in the open. maybe thats part of the problem.

[Rudd]

Rudd, what things would you change in the insurgency system? Im asking instead of assuming you'll air your opinion, as it seems the Devs walk on eggshells these days. I dont see why you's dont just throw ideas out in the open. maybe thats part of the problem.

alright, though this is only my opinion; but the mod moved away from this feature some time ago.

What insugency needs to be more fun is a counter objective for insurgents.
Blufor want the cache, but insurgents could have an objective of their own as well as defending. E.G. holding a mapper placed flag.
I really enjoyed the lanyial flag and VCP flags in the past, I don't agree with putting huge amounts of bleed on, as that turns the game in to a king of the hill rather than a liquid game, but gaining assets as the result of aflag hold (i.e. propaganda victory or something) might be nice. at the same time, that flag could benefit blufor with intel points. When there are no suspected caches, blufor need something to do to get the game moving - a flag would provide this. When insurgents need to open a new front, gain some equipment, or otherwise just need an objective other than 'wait for blufor to arrive' a flag would provide this. Each map has some good locations for a randomised selection where only 1 flag may be chosen per round.

so basically, my wish would be for there to have flags featuring to an extent as a side objective, kinda arma2 style where victory does not depend on them, but they can help or hinder you.