Insurgent Missdirection

[Pronck]

To be honest, a full kit request system might be just as much of a problem with people going to the unknown for kits, so a partial request system, such as only allowing Cell leader, Collaborator, and Warrior (AK-47/74 and Ammo Bag) to be requestable at the cache might be the way to go. I elaborated on the logic and projected impact of this idea a couple of pages back, but can link to the post if necessary.

Well what about making all the standard kits request able. That will not hurt the insurgent team I think. They should adjust the request menu so you can request all standard kits. Because I don't how many times I needed an AK to kill enemies while defending a cache with a RPG.

[Rudd]

Perhaps bring a friend with an AK next time?

[Pronck]

Perhaps bring a friend with an AK next time?

Uhm ever heard of RPG squad? Think, and think more and then you'll find a scenario that you won't have an AK ready.

[Rudd]

So, you had a squad of only RPGs, and then you're suprised when you needed an AK?

[Stoickk]

I like you Rudd. I would totally give you a man-hug right now.

I have a question for you. Have you had a chance to look through the thread on civilian RoE yet? I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but at the moment, you seem to be the most responsive member of the dev team on this issue in terms of talking with the community via these forums. I know there is probably a lot of talk and debate behind the scenes, but it can be frustrating for us to be in the dark. If we aren't seeing the talking and debates, we have no idea what is going on. For those of us that are former military, we used to call it being mushrooms. Some of you know what I mean. Thank you, and to the other devs that are popping in and posting as well, for continuing to come in here and talk to us. It means a lot, at least to me.

[Rudd]

Remember fellas, while not all DEVs are posting - have faith that the DEVs are reading and considering; and a team member will take up any valuable points in the team section so that the relevant DEVs (i.e. the relevant skillsets, coders etc) will see it.

I'm just a player who really liked a mod and taught himself mapping with the tuts and help of DEVs/forum members here, I'm here to have fun like everyone else

[Pronck]

So, you had a squad of only RPGs, and then you're suprised when you needed an AK?

Who said that I was the leader of that squad, and as a squadmember I have to follow my orders. And sometime you will get surprised by the enemy smartguy *ough*

[Rudd]

I'm so sorry, I shall ammend my post, may your infinite wisdom show me the light

here is the comment as it should have been

So, you were in a squad of only RPGs, and then you're suprised when you needed an AK?

oh wait, it changes nothing

[Pronck]

I'm so sorry, I shall ammend my post, may your infinite wisdom show me the light

here is the comment as it should have been



oh wait, it changes nothing

You just won't understand it.

[Psyko]

You just won't understand it.

RPG squads are neither epic, intelligent or effective. A good tactical squqad could be extremely effective with the tools at their disposal, but on pubby teams, squads just end up being disposable tools *guffaw!*

My consern is that if you give the ins team too much leeway then they become overpowered. what can be done to avoid the over-poweredness?

[Mellanbror]

First off, like alot of what I've read. Some of what I've wrote is a few days old and so not in context to...alot realy hehe. Just putting some additional thoughts out there.

Here it goes.

Ins funfactor: They need more stuff to do. Lets give them the ability to build more.

Instead of foxholes, how about 2 broken cars placed parallell to eachother with a 1,5m between them? Giving good cover but not as good as a foxhole.

Instead of wires, how about some burning tires? Good deturrent against nme infantry but not towards vehicles. But then again, fire is hard to see through...rpg behind the (foxhole-)cars?

Instead of HMG-nest, I could imagine a small sandbagwall, open from all but one direction, with a heavy caliber topfed (ensured low ammocount) mg.

Give civi-kit a knife. This will make bluefor loners think twice before running carlessly after one. Tactic to be used would be to have one man holding gun at civi while an other makes the arrest. Civi with knife in hand is a legit target. So he has to be wize about how to use it. This will no doubt make civi a more fun class to play.

Also, like the idea of giving techys an ammocrate.
On maps with aerialassets; yes to a techy with an anti airgun. Maybe with one of those old with magazines;low ammocount (saw one at a museum once hehe). Needs to be rearmed often.
Yes to removing pickup-weapons from unknown caches.

Rallypoint tweak. They are no longer dropped, but built. An ammocrate needs to be present? Or RP they can be built anywhere but needs to be maintained to work. Having a good rally enables a squad to have their own private spawn. More chance of keeping it secret for advances and many times a good choise for mortarsquad.

Rally can be built anywhere (by a squad of at least 4?) but needs a present squad for it to work, i.e it will need to be shovled some for each spawn. This will prevent SL and one more from holding themselves disengaged and spamming rallys.

In my book a rallypoint is for gameplay reasons. You won the fight but have a man down. No fun in waiting for him, or for him to run a mile to catch up. Rallypoints make up for this.
The though behind this idea is that if you can maintain the rally the nme doesnt own you enough to not warrent a spawn. One nme inf close by will not effect rally.

This ruleset will prevent sniperteam from having a constant spawn on e.g muttrah mountains. They go down, they stay down.

This is the part where it will seem out of context :/

Checkpoints - gives bluefor intel (hold one for 10 minutes reveales a cache?) Checkpoint areas are at random locations and must be shoveled. Checkpoints are immediatley revealed to Ins when up. Will keep gameplay more fluent and fun.

Gamemode change: what if holding e.g 3 checkpoints for say 15 minutes expanded a dome of death throughout city,
simulating that an area was under bluefors control. Bluefor can then move up and nme area for possible cachespawn is decreased. Bluefor gets 3 new checkpoints to hold and so on. This will ensure a frontline on both sides and fighting getting more concentrated and fun.

The checkpoint thoughts are a little out of date but maybe someone can use them for better ideas.

Cheers

[Psyko]

@ Mellan,

Good ideas. some like the domb of death are a bit out there, but not bad imo. I really like the idea of having to shovel the rally for each member. it gives each member worth! but whats stopping insurgent squads from ignoring their fellow squad members?

[stealth420]

you have to remember taliban and insurgents get about 5% of the training that US forces receive.

How to compare it....


Taliban = Pre schoolers/Grade school students ( un organized and think 5 min into future )


US forces = College Students ( Always Planning for the future and Remembering that Leader calls the shots)


Thats the difference between the training.

[Stoickk]

you have to remember taliban and insurgents get about 5% of the training that US forces receive.

How to compare it....


Taliban = Pre schoolers/Grade school students ( un organized and think 5 min into future )


US forces = College Students ( Always Planning for the future and Remembering that Leader calls the shots)


Thats the difference between the training.

Your statement is very inaccurate. Groups such as Hamas and the Taliban are highly trained and organized paramilitary organizations with numerous training facilities, instructors with real world training (often from other military organizations) and experience, and advisors that are well versed in a wide variety of warfare techniques, both conventional and unconventional. That is why those groups, as well as the generic Militia are represented as they are in PR.

If you intended to remark on Insurgents, you would be somewhat closer to the mark in regards to formal training, to an extent. however you are ignoring the massive amount of informal training and real world experience that is prevalent in forces of that type. Training facilities and materials are routinely found and recovered, indicating organized training of personnel in combat techniques.

Warfare and conscription are also very common in the middle east, leading to a very large percentage of the population having formal military training and potential combat experience. Add to this the fact that there has been ongoing conflict with western forces for the past ten years consecutively, and you have no shortage of combat hardened insurgents that are well versed in combat techniques that are efficient enough to keep them in a fight.

To state that they are unable to think more than five minutes into the future is just insulting.

[stealth420]

Your statement is very inaccurate. Groups such as Hamas and the Taliban are highly trained and organized paramilitary organizations with numerous training facilities, instructors with real world training (often from other military organizations) and experience, and advisors that are well versed in a wide variety of warfare techniques, both conventional and unconventional. That is why those groups, as well as the generic Militia are represented as they are in PR.

If you intended to remark on Insurgents, you would be somewhat closer to the mark in regards to formal training, to an extent. however you are ignoring the massive amount of informal training and real world experience that is prevalent in forces of that type. Training facilities and materials are routinely found and recovered, indicating organized training of personnel in combat techniques.

Warfare and conscription are also very common in the middle east, leading to a very large percentage of the population having formal military training and potential combat experience. Add to this the fact that there has been ongoing conflict with western forces for the past ten years consecutively, and you have no shortage of combat hardened insurgents that are well versed in combat techniques that are efficient enough to keep them in a fight.

To state that they are unable to think more than five minutes into the future is just insulting.

Im just expressing the "Level" of training, US military tactics VS Taliban Training. How far indepth it goes i dont know, but i assure you US forces receive more training on all tacticts in warfare. You took my post 100% way to seriously.

[calstifer]

Im just expressing the "Level" of training, US military tactics VS Taliban Training. How far indepth it goes i dont know, but i assure you US forces receive more training on all tacticts in warfare. You took my post 100% way to seriously.

I would like to counter on two fronts:

First of all, you make an accerate reprosentation of the US army, and under estimate Taliban training, but then go on to say that this is an equel ratio. This is incorrect.

Secondly, the US forces are not the most highly trained forces in the world. Overall, they have the largest military power, but not as indeviduels. For instance, the Australian Specal forces (As it is to my knowlege) are the greatest in the world. They outmatch in skill, but not in numbers. This is one of many examples to show that the US may not be as specalised, but they are the best all round.

[Psyko]

you have to remember taliban and insurgents get about 5% of the training that US forces receive.

can you get a source of reference for that please? you know you guys have been at war with them for many years now yea? thats a lot of combat experiance from my perrspective.

edit:
afaik all the terrorist organisations (ETA IRA TALIBAN etc,) use cross border trainers. there were a couple of IRA guys found out in the south american rainforest last year training those columbian rebels.

And also, how does that change how the players in PR should think. you cant honustly tell me that every time you play as insurgent you dont (A) consider team switching, and (B) Rage quit often. and (C) Eventually become frustrated.

[Slightchance]

Wow, some great ideas. I like where these are going. To follow through on a few other ideas that could change insurgency to where it is different, but also fun, consider these.

I know it would be a lot of work, and I want to make it clear this is mostly for Iraqi insurgents rather than Taliban or Hamas.

Allow Insurgent squad leaders to place caches using rally point logic. IE have 5 other squad members nearby and can deploy. Perhaps require building, or otherwise, it just appears and takes a few minutes to become active to avoid many exploits.

Otherwise, perhaps just using it as a deployable structure with a full squad nearby and x number of crates or whatever could also work.

It could work by having the round start with 2 caches and with the insurgents having the option to place a third. By placing a third cache the insurgents gain access to more weapons, and another staging area, but must defend it. There is currently a system ingame where if there are fewer than 2 caches another one will spawn at a certain point, and distance away from other caches. Therefore, if one is destroyed, there will not be another one spawning if there is another cache placed by the insurgents in that time.

So after having the first two caches being destroyed, it would be possible for the insurgents to place all the other caches in the game.

I'm not sure if IP could be tweaked to reveal these new caches, or if there is a problem there. Furthermore, something would have to be done to remove the glitching effects of placing caches. Using deployable structures and building them could work, but these do not work indoors as of right now, which would be a big problem for hiding caches.

Nevertheless, I think there needs to be some way for insurgents to better use the terrain to their advantages and to pick their own battlefields more than a random cache spawner.

Anyways, at least its an idea.

Another idea, for the insurgent commander, how about allowing him to place a small stack of burning tires, similar to an informant, that after a certain time activates by creating a fire with a very tall plume of smoke to warn people of advancing enemies. Something like that has been used in the past and could be a unique way of gaining intelligence, especially if combined with current informant options.

Another odd idea, I mentioned a long time ago, but just before the .91 release, is limiting the ability of people to spot for the entire team. Wow, that's a bit drastic, but would instead represent the cell style nature of insurgents as the squads would therefore be more of their own independent teams if they could not easily relay information to other squads. Yes, I know, mumble and team chat can be used, but by not being able to mark targets on the map for the team, it would make the commander absolutely vital.

It would change the teamwork dynamic of insurgency to make them work as squads instead of teams as opposed to how conventional forces should act.

Finally, how about adding some type of rally point to the squads for insurgency, they last longer, but can be overrun and take a longer time to respawn. Also, could it be possible to require a collaborator to be in the squad in order to place the spawn, to simulate the help of the local population hiding, supporting, and aiding fighters...

Random ideas, that could change how the game is played, while being slightly realistic.

Otherwise, finding a way to move the ammo boxes from technicals after they are dropped indoors could be a wonderful way to create fake caches. There was a thread on that long ago, but it would also be a good idea to try to find a way to make that work.

I know it's a lot to ask for, but I think these ideas could transform insurgency into something more unique, but perhaps not necessarily for the better.

[Mellanbror]

@ Mellan,

Good ideas. some like the domb of death are a bit out there, but not bad imo. I really like the idea of having to shovel the rally for each member. it gives each member worth! but whats stopping insurgent squads from ignoring their fellow squad members?

Good question. What keeps a squad together in regular units?
Really 2 things come to mind; being in a squad ensures better weapons (cool and fun) and having a medic provides life (gives you the chance of having fun and being cool longer hehe). There is more to it but remaining factors lies with individual player charachteristics. Hardcoded they say

The two is nothing that is granted to the teamworking Insurgent. He can get his "cool" gun anywhere and finding a hard working civi being an effective medic hard. Big ups to you few who do it!

So lets brake it down. We all know that to succesfully defend a cache a squad needs to have eyes on. In many cases only one squad does this, and its the same squad over and over again. This squad will not have an enjoyable game during most rounds. Why? The other squads are on their search and destroy missions having fun and more or less succesfully denying nme access to cache. Sure defending squad could just join in the hunt but then the odd USMC soldier will get through and take out cache. Leading to a loss.

For defending squad to have more to do then counting bricks I refer to my earlier post with deployable assets. I'll add that I realize that amount of suggested INS variant of foxholes and wires would have to be lowered in comparison to regular units.

This is allready a teamwork-oriented squad obviously due to the fact that they take on the boring job. So their need to be conditioned towards TW is not needed. They just need something to do while waiting.

What about the others?
Say we remove pickup-weapons or they can only be picked up by SM by same rules as for a regular unit. Some kits require 4 men, some 2 in squad. What would happen?

Many would join a squad. Same as for regular units, I guess. However it does not guaranty they don't just run of with their kit. In a regular unit the SL would kick such a member and an admin can kick for stealing squads kit or for players not being in a squad. Why can't not be so on INS side?

How to deal with it?
First off: If you are not in a squad you are a civi. You can not pickup a weapon. Only if you are in a squad are you allowed to have a weaponskit. This will make many join squads and work with SL. They get booted from squad they have 15 sec to drop kit. That will ensure them not running away I think.

But then might not players just become SL's and do what they want?
Solution is simple (big words I know). Restrict SL-kit. He to has to be dependent on his squad to care about them. Mandatory Civi-SL-kit is an excellent choice in this context. For fighting he is dependent on squad and due to being civi he gets space to focus on leading squad effectively. Squad also dependend to stay close to their leader for medical treatment. Think that there is a reality aspect to this aswell. Guessing most terrorist leaders are not the ones doing the actuall fighting.

Civi-SL-kit for SL to boring for some?
Maybe...then lets put a rightclick for a diffrent SL-kit.
Pretty much the same kit but, remove civistatus and give him an UZI (think I've watched too much TV, but when I was young all terrorists had UZI's hehe). The scorpion is allready ingame so that might be more simple to implement. Keep magcount low though as he need to be dependant on his squad for substained firefights.

If some don't like the idea of not being able to pickup kits from a weapons cache due to realism aspects they can always be changed to piles of opium/heroin. Soldiers confiscate alot of drugs in afghanistan etc. They burn seizured drugs I've heard...incendiarys

Glad you like my thoughts on rallypoints. Thought it was pretty good myself =)

Cheers

[Bob of Mage]

The lack of armed medics really hurts teamplay for the Insurgents. Since the only medical aid comes from a highly specialised (think sniper kit), and unarmed kit, most players find it easier to give up than ask the one medic 500m away for help. It's also very hard to play any sort of role in combat if you don't want to be a human shield or throw rocks. As someone who aways loves to take the medic kit, I found myself looting any BLUFOR kit to try and find a combat medic kit. Forcing even people who like to play medic to jump through so many hoop can kill the feel of the game. Even just a 9mm handgun would be wonderful!

While read some of the newer posts I had an idea for how to upgrade Cell Leaders' rally points. Since the Insurgent faction only fights in or near cities, it stand to reason that they could have groups of men hiding in any closed off building. This is somewhat represented for the current outposts, but they function on a team, not cell, level. If each cell had it's own private hideout it would shift the gameplay more to the cell level, which I feel would be better for this faction's style. There would be only minor changes in balance (team hideouts will need to be lowered) since right now any CL can make one wherever he feels like. Since most of the hideouts would only be for people in cells, it would reward people for playing in them.

Anyways this is two more cents (CAN$:cool worth of ideas (well one was sort of reused). I hope they help.