Civilians and how we feel when we kill them

[goguapsy]

^Great post, Stoickk. Let me just reiterate a few points:

In my opinion civis take alot away from the combat experience of the game.

Honestly, that statement makes no sense at all. As Stoickk pointed out, Insurgency is all about Limited Warfare. If anything, civies are a fundamental part of the game. And we are discussing here harsher penalties to those who do not understand it (ie. people who shoot them almost every time they see one, for example).

i compare them to draft dodgers/hippies. Its simply choosing not to fight and to watch.

Exactly! Ever pictured if cops starting shooting any hippies they saw? The Hippie team would win big time, both score-wise (cops would have loads of negative points) and they would also have very few IPs (for, say, the Manhattan Project, if that happened some years before the actual Flower-Power era).

This is a combat based sim, you throw a peace loving civi in the mix your messing up the flow of things.

Hmm. Again, makes no sense - BF2 is a combat-based game. COD4 is a combat-based game. Project Reality, as you yourself stated, is a "sim" (or at least a very good approach on the BF2 engine). A "combat-based sim" basically means you you play in Combat Roles, but not necessarily that you should kill everything that breaths.

Its like having a giant killing factory ( best way to describe US) and your producing kills but your throwing Wrenches into the gears which slow you down.

But in reality US team is not getting slowed down, the insurgent team loses out every time some one picks that kit and is dedicated to it.

What? Really?

On MY experience, at least, civi-massacre is the 2nd biggest factor for a lost round to the BLUFOR (loses to a fail BLUFOR team as a losing factor). The biggest win factor to the BLUFOR team, though, are people using limited kits from uknown caches. Guys, you MUST understand... APCs and vehicles RESPAWN if you kill them! Caches don't, so protect the KNOWN ones, don't reveal the UKNOWN ones!


@Ninjam3rc, your statement describes PR's Fallujah perfectly. There are very few civies around. But still, they are there.

[Stoickk]

Apology accepted, and I will apologize for the name calling as well. It was done very tongue in cheek, but I don't want to derail the conversation either.

My statement is not false. I am former U.S. Army, and served for four years as an infantryman. I deployed to the middle east twice, both prior to the current conflicts. I have spent several hours in ROE classes, and I can guarantee you that I personally have never been presented with rules of engagement authorizing me to fire on a target for looking at me with a pair of binoculars or for carrying a cell phone. As a caveat to this, I did not deploy to Fallujah in '04, and am not claiming to be a rules of engagement specialist for the entire U.S. military, therefore, I can not give you a 100% definitive answer as to that specific ROE. I am merely basing this off of my own years of military service, and my own experience with limited warfare ROE and ROE classes and instruction as they were presented to me as an enlisted infantryman.

Bottom line is, current ROE the Blufor forces in Project Reality are operating under prohibit firing on Collaborators unless the Collaborators have done one of the three things mentioned in my previous post. Period. End of story. Binoculars and cell phones do not violate that ROE in the current build of PR.

I can and have justified harsher penalties for blufor soldiers and teams that continually and willfully violate the ROE because the current penalties are not sufficient to enforce the rules of engagement. If they were, you would not have players with attitudes like, oh let's say, stealth420. Players like him kill every collaborator they see, every round, and have absolutely no problem doing so. The fact that they are able to do so without repercussions is proof positive that the system needs adjustment.

I am not backing all of the suggestions that were in this thread. If you read back over some of my earlier posts in this thread, I am just as quick to jump on players that want the penalties to be too over the top, such as instant death for shooting a collaborator outside of ROE. I am looking for balance. The point of the discussion is brainstorming. The more ideas that are out there, the better the odds of finding a few good ones and improving the game mode as a whole.

If you don't think anyone is going out of their way to harm the "innocent" (I use that term very loosely, as we all know that collaborators are in no way innocent) read back over stealth420's posts, as well as several others in this discussion. Or for that matter, play a round or two of insurgency as a collaborator and see how many times you get killed outside of ROE. It just might change your mind.

As for the arresting, that's exactly what you should be doing. Keep having fun with it.

[Pvt.LHeureux]

I didn't read the whole thread but I hope that you guys realise that killing a civi = -10 intel points?

Arresting civi = 10 intel points
Killing civi = -10 intel points
Killing insurgent = 1 intel point

You can kill civies if they :

Used epipen/reanimate in the last 60 seconds
They spawned in the last 60 seconds
They grabed a kit in the last 60 seconds
Went in a vehicle in the last 60 seconds
Used a weapon in the last 60 seconds

So if you manage to kill 6 civies don't dare to think about having another cache intel this round...

[MoshPanda]

Specialist Shotgun incoming~ at least the civi wont be dead. but waiting for 60 sec spawn time is kinda nasty thing in the whole game(well if u wanna take a pee pee) LOL

[Ninjam3rc]

Disregard this.

[Stoickk]

Thank you for your service. My brother in law recently (in the last few years) exited the Corps, and completed three tours as an 0331. I've talked with him for hours on the subject. I understand where you are coming from. The fact still remains that we are trying to figure out ways to enforce the ROE that are in PR right now. Real world, I agree with you 100%. If you have a guy watching with binos and a cell phone, wax his ***. Real world, that guy could have had ten other guys setting up his ied's and all he has to do is sit up on a balcony somewhere watching and waiting to hit a specific number on speed dial.

In PR, we have a much more simplified version of Insurgency. The Collaborator, even with binos and a cell phone, is not a direct threat in PR. His cell phone can not be used to detonate IED's (which is the primary reason that U.S. forces were authorized to fire on guys with cell phones, I talked to my brother in law) or do anything directly harmful to Blufor forces. This is why binos and cell phones do not violate PR's ROE.

As for the SKS/Enfield thoughts, I think it is more of a balance issue. The sapper kit is already powerful enough. Do you really want those guys to have AK's too?

[goguapsy]

I didn't read the whole thread but I hope that you guys realise that killing a civi = -10 intel points?

Arresting civi = 10 intel points
Killing civi = -10 intel points
Killing insurgent = 1 intel point

You can kill civies if they :

Used epipen/reanimate in the last 60 seconds
They spawned in the last 60 seconds
They grabed a kit in the last 60 seconds
Went in a vehicle in the last 60 seconds
Used a weapon in the last 60 seconds

So if you manage to kill 6 civies don't dare to think about having another cache intel this round...

Yeah we do realize that. THAT's why we want a harsher punishment to those that violate the ROE and thus harm the team.

I am just as quick to jump on players that want the penalties to be too over the top, such as instant death for shooting a collaborator outside of ROE.

HEY!!!

It's not instant death, it's instant-wounded-state (read: insta-dead, not insta-dead-dead).

For me that makes sense because:

1. BLUFOR loses 1 ticket
2. Squad is delayed

I don't see how's that over the top (Note the crewmen and pilots exception - they would have time to RTB).


EDIT: Off-topic - Which servers do you play in, Stoickk? I'd love to have a match with you.

[Stoickk]

Off Topic

I spend most of my gaming time either in clan matches/skirmishes or pubbing on TAR Texas on the weekend. If I am not there, I play on tacticalgamer, teamplayergaming, and sometimes on NWA UK Reality. Occasionally I will play on HOG Muttrah City or on CIA's Kokan and Hookers server, but I get really bored with servers that run the same map over and over. That last one is getting better about adding different maps in spite of the name though.

During the week, I spend most of my PR time working on training materials and developing and teaching training courses (hence the "TRADOC NCO" thing in my signature) for my clan, but I do pop into the occasional game evenings my time (GMT-6) time permitting. I am also a father of two, so family comes first, and I don't always have time to game during the week.

In game, I will always be on my clan account which is CPL [508th_PIR]Ice. The rank may change, as I am coming up for a promotion soon.

[MoshPanda]

Off Topic

I spend most of my gaming time either in clan matches/skirmishes or pubbing on TAR Texas on the weekend. If I am not there, I play on tacticalgamer, teamplayergaming, and sometimes on NWA UK Reality. Occasionally I will play on HOG Muttrah City or on CIA's Kokan and Hookers server, but I get really bored with servers that run the same map over and over. That last one is getting better about adding different maps in spite of the name though.

During the week, I spend most of my PR time working on training materials and developing and teaching training courses (hence the "TRADOC NCO" thing in my signature) for my clan, but I do pop into the occasional game evenings my time (GMT-6) time permitting. I am also a father of two, so family comes first, and I don't always have time to game during the week.

In game, I will always be on my clan account which is CPL [508th_PIR]Ice. The rank may change, as I am coming up for a promotion soon.

yea agree with u hopefully thoes hot serve can add the christmas maps pack in their serves