Insurgent Missdirection

[Mikemonster]

Bob mate you forget that Collaborator Kit is really the weapon of choice for a good SL in Insurgency. A lot of new guys like the Cell Leader kit, because you can return fire and it's more familiar. But I believe a SL matures and realises eventually that he is essentially a radio-man/spotter for his guys.

Collaborator is a very good kit if used properly.. I think having an Cell Leader and a Collaborator in the same squad is a mistake and a duplication. A SL with Collaborator kit also encourages proper play, the SL is usually a player who has chosen to be more mature/responsible and fingers crossed he won't waste the kit (like some dickheads are prone to do 'trololololol').

[Anti]

I think the insurgents are good they way they are when it comes to medics. If you give the medical kit to someone else it destroys any purpose of being a civilian in the first place. It'd be nice if they had a weapon, but seeing as they are civi's it would defeat the purpose of calling 'em civilians.

[Slightchance]

Collaborators as medics isn't something I'm too fond of honestly. I can see why it was done, but I definitely preferred when insurgents had no medical equipment and when they went down they just died, which was back when I started in .7.

An idea that could work, in my mind anyways, is to remove the civilian from the spawn menu, and simply add binoculars to the unarmed insurgent kit. It already has a phone. Anyone could be a collaborator but would need to drop their kit and wait about 2 minutes.

Giving the rope to the SL or some other kit would work well for me. Adding a pickup doctor kit or something with medical aid could work to help medical aid, but since they all have bandages now, there is no big need for a medic for short falls.

Of course, the issue would be the collaborators would always go running back to their caches or things like that, but in this way every insurgent could be a collaborator when it is necessary or useful, for a few minutes, and then come back again.

There would probably have to be a rule about the binoculars that allows ROE otherwise every insurgent would just run around with binoculars and get shot or be considered to be a collaborator. This would make it tougher for bluefor too because not all collaborators will look alike.

It would make collaborators less useful, but, still effective spotters and would change insurgency in that there are fewer medics and abilities to get medical attention. As many people say right now, most people don't just give up anyways.

If there was a doctor, he would have to be completely unarmed, and would not be able to be shot even when using an epi pen or something like that. There could only be a few on a team, but arresting could work.

I don't think this'll happen, but it's another way to look at things...

[Psyko]

Allow Insurgent squad leaders to place caches using rally point logic. IE have 5 other squad members nearby and can deploy. Perhaps require building, or otherwise, it just appears and takes a few minutes to become active to avoid many exploits.

placing the caches was previously thrown out. but when i think of it now, i believe insurgents with the right MENTALITY would utalise them strategically. If i was an INS commander placing a cache i would put it in the most hard to readcch place possible. but this would mean repetitive placement throughout different games. and a method to simulate (lets say tunnels) carrying boxes of ammo to build a cache would be a long arguous process almost justifying these radical placements. so if insurgents were to carry ammo and then dig the cache in a difficult to reach location, this coupled with the actual process of trying to get to that location would be balanced. otherwise the cache wouldnt get built and it would expire.

so im talking about a structure like a firebase which starts off as a flat canvas or somthing lying on the ground, then as other insurgents drop ammo on it, it's ammo counter increases, and then a bunch of insurgents dig it (a squad, not a team) then the spawn becomes active, and the blue diamond appears.

and not until after this cache is built will a second cache become active. any thoughts, possible exploits?

[PLODDITHANLEY]

I think on the majority of servers people would get soo bored, maybe to have the Option of building one or two.

No idea if that'd be codable, but if you built one it takes the next auto cache of the list?

The build technique sounds good though, need like 40 shovel hits, 10 ammo boxes or 50 ammo bags kind of thing.

[Pronck]

Well about that medic kit, how should they be equipped? I was thinking about this: SKS/Skorpion/UZI (that's a pretty bad-*** weapon though), 5 Epipens , Medic Bag, 3 Patches and that is it. So they won't have a great weapon, and their amount of epipens is based on the fact that they would probably steal it from the BLUFOR or get it via the chinese.

[SoB-Rindee]

Wow that was a lot of reading, but it is a topic worth discussing. I find myself playing Insurgency less, because any time I join a game I always feel like "wow, the team raged... that is why I got in here".In AAS I get in a fair game more often, sometimes even on the winning team.

This is a problem because I love Insurgency so much.

It is odd at times it seems really unbalanced *like the OP said with Insurgents not working together* however at times I found the Insurgents REALLY kicked ***.

I have played on Fallujah a number of times where the Insurgents really used mortars VERY well. So well the entire game was won without my squad engaging more than 2 insurgents with small arms. The entire game was basically won with mortars (well lost for me).

I think there could be some changes to the Insurgents that would make them more playable, and a lot of great ones have been mentioned. I liked the lesser spawn time for rifleman especially.

I understand the concept behind random spawning of the cache, but I think I would rather have the insurgents choose where one goes. It would let them have more influence on the game. Perhaps it could be considered an asset like the armor, or air power? A squad needs to be designated as the "cache carrier"? Squad leader determines where to build the cache, squad mates build it.

People have made some great recommendations on that already, so I don't want to ramble when its already been done. I just want to nod in agreement with some things that have been said.

I like the idea of insurgents having more control of cache locations. Even if its just moving the cache to another location.

I also like the idea of shorter spawn times for rifleman.

Playing on Blufor is so fun because there is so much to do and build. Insurgents get boring because its just sit and wait for a cache. If its halfway across the map... you need to reposition.

[Bob of Mage]

I never meant to replace the collaborators with combat medics. I would like both with some sort of kit request system. If the combat medic is too powerful to have one per squad you could limit it like the LATs are for other factions.

I'm very much for some sort of request system (pickup kit have their place too) since it let you have more option for basic kits. With a request system all the spawnable kits could have little more than rifles, while you could request say a scout with a hook, or the adove exmaple of a combat medic. To keep people from running to caches, have kits only requestable at the main base (basic spawnable kits may be fine).

I hope this clears up what I'm trying to say.

[Psyko]

seeing as you mentioned medics and civies...
i always thought it would be helpful for an ambulance and a big cheese doctor with no weapons of any discription for the insurgents. however i can understand why an ambulance might look tacky. (but if done right, as in modeled well it could be done. just dont expect flashing blue lights with bf2's lighting capabilities.)

I really dont think civies should get weapons, it would destabilise things too much. civies should and will stay(becuase of the arresting game dynamic). but i think a limited "doctor" kit would be great with the ability to set up a medic tent (not an actual tent, but somthing like a big briefcase filled with stuff that heals slowly when you crouch against it. more like a deployable that you can undeploy and it doesnt show up on the map like other vehicles.)

mainly theres a kind of missuse of civies and a good use of civies and because insurgents are so liberal in what you can choose to do and how you choose to do it, people run rampant, getting themselves killed and refusing to blame themselves. but if civies had a clear cut reason to exist that was upfront and obvious they would funnel their efforts into more practical, useful, and safe ways. might take me a while to think of a way to do that though.

[Mouthpiece]

If civies get weapons of any kind they will be perceived as regular insurgents and therefore shot on sight. So no weapons for civies if you want to keep the ROE and the possible martyr statuss.

[Mellanbror]

Psykogundam, did you read my respons to your question after my first post?
Suggested reading before this one.

The idea of having 2 diffrent civi-sl-kits (where one is armed) is so that bluefor don't know if civi is a threat. Kinda like IRL. Remember, the small weapon is concealed when not in hands.

Armed civi-sl, that looks just like unarmed civi, bluefor can shoot inside ROE at all times. The kicker is that they just don't know. Think this could lead to some really interesting tactics. Scorpio/UZI/pistol with 2 spares mags is enough.

One plausable result of this is that it will force blufor TW aswell as INS-side TW. As bluefor you do not want to wander off alone facing civis. They might be a threat

Civi-SL should have the grapplinghook. That way he can place his men where he wants them.

The default civikit, the one (and only) kit you can have if you are not in a squad will not have a grapplinghook. Ensures him staying on the ground, mixing with more players.
2 post back (of mine) I debated that civi gets a knife. This would be the civi carrying it.
Pulling his knife makes him a legit target, same as with healing. Switching to unarmed it takes to 2 minutes before he's martyr status. So he has to think twice before pulling it.

All in all, there would be 3 diffrent civis: SL-civi with gun (never a martyrs death), SL-civi unarmed and regular civi with knife (can not be shot under ROE unless having pulled knife).

No to players placing caches. They will be placed at the same locations too often. And ofc in places that are pretty much impossible to get at.

Peace I'm a civi =)

[Rissien]

If there was a civi kit that could be shot at all times people would be even further encouraged to shoot every civi on sight.

[Pronck]

H[=Rissien;1566892']If there was a civi kit that could be shot at all times people would be even further encouraged to shoot every civi on sight.

+100000000000000! People should actually be punished all times when they shoot civilians, but they can only shoot them when the civilian is helping the enemy in front of him, so during the occasion. As the NATO troops won't start shooting at civilians when they walk out of an alley because maybe they did something.

[Mellanbror]

H[=Rissien;1566892']If there was a civi kit that could be shot at all times people would be even further encouraged to shoot every civi on sight.

The odd player might, in the beginning. They have a 1 in 3 chance it's an ok civi to shoot.
But seeing as this would lead to it being more "civis" around, you don't think players would learn fast when they more often get the spawntime penalty? I do.
Besides the spawntime-penalty team would suffer from loss of intel.

I believe this would lead to bluefor being more careful around civis, not less.

If it would be a problem, then change ROE, even armed civi could fall under ROE as is. I.e you get a penalty shooting him if he hasent had his gun up the last 2 minutes.

I would myself just be more careful around civis. Probably feel game was more exciting then now. The whole point is not knowing - harmless or not.

@Ghost and Rissen: It would be nice if you elaborated your thoughts a bit more.

[General Dragosh]

The odd player might, in the beginning. They have a 1 in 3 chance it's an ok civi to shoot.
But seeing as this would lead to it being more "civis" around, you don't think players would learn fast when they more often get the spawntime penalty? I do.
Besides the spawntime-penalty team would suffer from loss of intel.

I believe this would lead to bluefor being more careful around civis, not less.

If it would be a problem, then change ROE, even armed civi could fall under ROE as is. I.e you get a penalty shooting him if he hasent had his gun up the last 2 minutes.

I would myself just be more careful around civis. Probably feel game was more exciting then now. The whole point is not knowing - harmless or not.

@Ghost and Rissen: It would be nice if you elaborated your thoughts a bit more.

Yes yes,

we need the BLUFOR to use brains, not acting like john rambo

We need 2 civi kits, armed and not armed, this will mostly confuse blufor

Thats how it it IRL and thats how it should be here

Who's against this proposal is mostly someone who play's BLUFOR exclusively and is playing just to shoot Insurgents, for some personal reasons id say xD

=D

[Nebsif]

...

Epic idea!
People will learn, just like it took some time to adapt to non white shirt (empty kit) civis!

[Stoickk]

Adding some variety to the Collaborator kit may help, but we have to be careful not to overpower the kit and kill the feel of the game at the same time. The point of the game is not to have an entire insurgent team of "1337 n1nj45" running around trying to be civi assassins with armed collaborator kits. While I am obviously exaggerating for effect, with armed collaborator kits, this is a potential problem. The intent behind the collaborator is to be someone that is sympathetic to the insurgency, say to the extent of warning them when enemy soldiers are approaching, healing their wounded, or helping them escape. The Collaborator is not necessarily someone that is enough of a believer in their cause to pick up a weapon and fight. I am not sure that adding weapons to the kit is the right way to go to stay with the original intent and feel.

Either way, until the punishments for ROE violations are addressed the Collaborator game will continue to be a problem. There are a lot of good ideas here though. I can only hope the devs are giving this issue due consideration.

[Slightchance]

I like the ideas about collaborators, and I agree with Stoickk about the need for a better ROE. I have a few ideas about ROE that might help people avoid shooting civilians. I'm thinking about a mix of incentives vs. punishments.

These would stack with the current punishments already in game.

Incentives: Player arrests a collaborator.
-Shorter spawn time for player.
-Shorter spawn time for squad as a whole.
-Extra points for squad as a whole.

Punishments: Player kills a collaborator.
(Many of these have been suggested by other people before and are not MY ideas per se)
-Increase spawn time on entire squad.
-Remove points from the entire squad.
-Flash a warning to the entire team with the name of the collaborator killer.
-Reset kill counter to 0.
-Perhaps... reset kill counter for squad.
-Perhaps lose more IP.
-Perhaps have the player instantly die if 3 or more collaborators are killed in one life.


Basically, this system would encourage squad players to police their own, and for doing so would help the entire squad and team. One jerk could ruin it for the entire squad, but then, the squad would probably get angry and kick the player or if it was the SL, they would leave the squad and make their own. If someone plays outside of a squad, it would punish them severely alone, and would let the entire team know of someone violating ROE, and could also prove useful for admins.

[Psyko]

Psykogundam, did you read my respons to your question after my first post?

yea, i had a big response typed out yesterday but i lost it. in short. Anybody who disguards their kit and is unarmed is a civilian. anyone with ammo, medicinal supplies or a rope can be considered a militant. SO in a way you could give all the nessesary stuff to the squad leader and transfer the civi-kill penalties to people who dont carry kits. but then they would be useless so i suppose insurgents with no kit should at least have somthing. but i dont know what. maybe grapple hook with a 15 second life so the can individually climb a wall and cant supply a whole team or squad with access to a roof without serious work. i dont know, just an idea.

I have to remind myself to stick to broad ideas so talking about kit loadouts is the same as spamming the suggestion thread with kit loadout ideas. and im not saying your doing that but it doesnt hurt to remind.

[mosinmatt]

Ok. The civilian/collaborator.
The ingame ROE dont necessarily meet what they would be IRL I think. BUT! That doesnt really matter all that much.
Look at some of the more left-wing reporting on the war in Iraq. Even if the "civilian" is helping a group of guys with AKs and RPGs, they still report it as killing Innocent civilians.
So, while you shooting that unarmed guy may fall into actual ROE...it is OUTSIde the "hearts and minds" ROE of the common folk at home.
Insurgents, and especially the HAMAs are known for using human shields. When these human shields are killed, the BLUEFOR are blamed for it.

That is just my 2 cents. I like the ROE for the collaborator now. People are always going to whine about it though. It is not like the civilian can directly hurt you. Anyways....they are easily gotten rid of if you know what you are doing.
The old rules were HORRIBLE. I mean, you would spawn as a civilian. Stand around a bit... go out, get shot, then you would have to wait 120+second, JUST CAUSE you were that class, where as the blufor never got punished for it. It was a useless class. But now it is great, and can be a true asset to the INS team.