knives and bayonets

[Stoickk]

I remember reading that FM. Sentry Takedown section of the Combatives manual, if I am not mistaken.

[Mikemonster]

Yes, I am absolutely certain that that manual is wrong.

With the greatest respect, in a combat situation and against a resisting opponent getting a knife kill would take ages and be a very messy affair.

I suppose if you sneaked up behind someone and applied some of those methods then yes, within 20 or 30 seconds of holding them maybe they'd pass out. But there would be a lot of kicking and gurgling/screaming during that time. And that's if you actually were calm enough to get the artery/vein (i.e. you didn't panic and miss, doing something like 'just' cutting the windpipe).

Obviously I would hateto see that implemented. But back to my original point, I say make the knife/bayonet a fast firing weapon with a massive hit radius but only at close range. And make it take two or three hits to kill the enemy, leaving him reviveable.

No, I don't want simulated knife combat, but just want to see the knife as less of a l33t weapon and more effective as a last-minute desperate (but effective) slashing/stabbing furious assault tactic. I.e. when in a t-building near an enemy squad and they corner you, and you're out of ammo.

Edit: Also, when two players resort to knives, it shouldn't be vBF2 style 'first [landed] shot kills'. As the saying goes, after a knife-fight one man bleeds, the other gushes.

[Arc_Shielder]

I say make the knife/bayonet a fast firing weapon with a massive hit radius but only at close range. And make it take two or three hits to kill the enemy, leaving him reviveable.

No one would use it then.

Sometimes my clip goes empty and I run to another room. The enemy knows it and if I do the reload sound then he will certainly blast his way in. So I stick by the entrance and pull out my knife and take him out.

Now, in a situation like you're saying I have no choice but to reload my gun and hope for the best. If I pulled my knife I would certainly be killed since the 1st stab doesn't do the trick.

And really, the only situation that it would ever be used is if 2 opposing soldiers got no ammo (and I mean, NO AMMO), no kits around and would have to resort to the good old stabbing.

How many times would that happen? 1 in a 100 000?

[Stoickk]

Mikemonster, if you are going to state that information is wrong, it might be prudent to add source material backing up that claim. Especially when that information is published training material from one of the top national armies on the planet. Just trying to put that out there as a tip.

[Mikemonster]

Well it's just my personal interest in self protection .. generally a knife is not an instant kill, that's hollywood media. there are videos online to that effect as well, if you can stomach them.

A field manual is ok as a theoretical baseline, but if you read that you wouldn't know how to use a knife to kill silently. I have no idea as to what level soldiers are trained to kill with knives, but my guess would be 'next to none'. There are books and manuals online explaining how to kill with your bare hands, but the reality is that whilst it is theoretically possible to do, in reality it is both impractical and nigh on impossible.

I've not really got a problem with the field manual or your viewpoint, i'm just saying it's not that simple or straightforward.

Arcturus, if your clip runs empty but you have enough time to run into another room (disengage), surely in reality you'd have run away? Or if you were cornered, would you really wait with a knife, hoping to kill the soldier chasing you instantly with a bayonet?

I think in real life you'd be screwed, but you'd get as far away as possible and reload. Saving that, you'd either surrender (unlikely) or just throw in your hand and go balls-out-mental with a knife if you had it. but you're very unlikely to kill the soldier if he has his aim up. You will however most likely deal a horrible injury with a single stab before he guns you down.

I think the insta-death knife is vBF2, and PR should reflect a frienzied, desperate attack with little chance of scoring a fatal wound and no chance of scoring an instant kill. If you have your rifle aiming forwards and someone stabs you in the face, i'm fairly sure you would gun them down through reflexes and then deal with the horrific consequence. Failing that the flinch reflex might make you back off, and they'd be dominating you and going for more stabs (you would almost certainly 'lose'). But it wouldn't be an instant death for you by any means.

If it was made like I suggested (multiple hits in one second, large 'spread') then you could charge the enemy and spam the left-click 'fire' button. This WOULD allow killing people you creep up on - You'd probably get two hits before they reacted, and the third would kill. And it would get rid of this single shot 'lottery' that exists at the mo.


Edit: I'm sorry to be so tasteless, it's the only way I can illustate my viewpoint on this [horrible] subject.

[Arc_Shielder]

In real life it makes sense that one lucky stab won't put your enemy unconscious or kill him instantly. However, not even gunfire does. A few shots on an enemy and he might grab the gun and fire a few protective rounds as he drag his body away from the action.

It is insensible to portray that notion of real life physics in a game with the engine of BF2, so all that is left is thinking through linear parameters.

For gameplay purposes there's absolutely no benefit to underpower the knife since it would make it unusable as it is in real life. No one would grab it. So your suggestion is either keeping it or taking it out - even though I do agree that the fallen man should be revivable and not dead.

Also, I guess you plan on doing the same thing when arresting insurgents?
If you do that, then the civis at close to medium range will know that it's an equal fight from the start. It will make the handcuffs equally useless.

[Mikemonster]

The handcuffs would be more useful because there would be a higher hit chance. Also, firing a few rounds at an enemy and having him still alive is basically modelled in PR, we see it when we use the 5.56mm rounds in CQB.

If it was modelled how I suggested, someone with a knife could still assault someone with a gun, however they stand a slim chance of success. Indeed in real life a couple of shots could be fired into an assailant without stopping them getting upon you, but I see that as a far slimmer chance than stabbing someone and incapacitating them with the same amount of 'shots'.

I.e. Use 2x knife stabs in real life and the assailant would keep coming onto you if he was fully committed. However 2x rifle shots, I think there would be far less chance, especially if to the torso (yes it is possible, and I have heard accounts, but not as likely).

For gameplay purposes there's absolutely no benefit to underpower the knife since it would make it unusable as it is in real life. No one would grab it.

I'm not suggesting ultra-real grappling calculations or any BS like that - Just saying that the knife should reflect its use in reality. In reality if you are outgunned, alone and cornered and choose to use a knife you've already lost, why shouldn't PR reflect that?

And it's use to kill snip3rs silently would still remain - You could creep up on them and click quickly 3x times and he'd be dead.

I realise this is a game, but it's a huge gameplay concession to make the knife a nice little gamble for a guaranteed kill. If you saw a medic patching himself in real life would you fix a bayonet and then stab him? Also, if you ran out of ammo in CQB, would you stand a [slim] chance of being able to KO the armed and alert enemy soldier in one stab?

[Ninjam3rc]

I'm of the mind that the butt stroke makes more sense than pulling a knife out to cut a fool.

[Nixy23]

A firm hit to the head with the back of your rifle would indeed make a lot more sense in a tight situation, than pulling out a knife and going on a frenzy. That first jab isn't going to kill your opponent, but a fierce blow to the head might disorient him enough to keep on bashing? I can't really say I have experience with this sort of thing though..

[Mikemonster]

Why hadn't I considered that? That would be brilliant, instead of the dubious knife attack a smash over the head with the rifle butt would make perfect sense.

Could have a large sweep (big chance of hitting), do the same damage as a rifle shot (takes three to kill unless headshot) and no switch/animation/deploy time. And possibly make it a fairly fast firing thing?

[Nixy23]

Well, that animation is already in for the IDF. They use a stomp with the rifle butt to 'capture' civilians instead of restrainers. It's fairly quick as well. As it is, in it's current form, it's still a 1-hit-KO though. Just as a knife is, or a punch to the face with restrainers (but normal 'unarmed' punches take 5 hits to knock someone out? )

[Herbiie]

No reason to change it tbh - if someone rushes you with a knife and you nor your team mates shoot him, that's your fault not the game's.

[reozm]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned this yet:
You guys do realize that a knife isn't as strong as a bullet, right? And it kills in one hit anyway. If you want a quick slash, it shouldn't be a one hit kill.

[RealKail]

I think the knives might be a bit more useful if you could throw them at your opponent. I will admit, I've used a knife on enemies a very few times in deployment, but it was mostly luck.

The whole slashing then stabbing animation needs to go, it adds too much time for the enemy to react to if they manage to pick up on you getting ready to slice them. Make it a simple slash that registers a hit or make it a stab that registers a hit. As it was stated before, the whole animation's more about looking cool than effectiveness.

And the knife/bayonet deploy times are about the same currently, which shouldn't be the case at all. It doesn't take as long to draw a knife as it does to draw one and attach it to your rifle. In the bayonet attach animation, the troopers conveniently already have their bayonet in hand to attach.

The main issue with attempting to knife/bayonet somebody is it's pretty hard to approach somebody quickly yet silently. Also, they can always turn around to shoot you mid-slash. Unfortunately this game's engine won't allow you to get somebody in a hold and kill them that way. And since that's the case, there needs to be a more effective means to use these tools.

[RUSSIAN147]

I think the knives might be a bit more useful if you could throw them at your opponent. I will admit, I've used a knife on enemies a very few times in deployment, but it was mostly luck.

The whole slashing then stabbing animation needs to go, it adds too much time for the enemy to react to if they manage to pick up on you getting ready to slice them. Make it a simple slash that registers a hit or make it a stab that registers a hit. As it was stated before, the whole animation's more about looking cool than effectiveness.

And the knife/bayonet deploy times are about the same currently, which shouldn't be the case at all. It doesn't take as long to draw a knife as it does to draw one and attach it to your rifle. In the bayonet attach animation, the troopers conveniently already have their bayonet in hand to attach.

The main issue with attempting to knife/bayonet somebody is it's pretty hard to approach somebody quickly yet silently. Also, they can always turn around to shoot you mid-slash. Unfortunately this game's engine won't allow you to get somebody in a hold and kill them that way. And since that's the case, there needs to be a more effective means to use these tools.

I agree fully

[reozm]

I think the knives might be a bit more useful if you could throw them at your opponent. I will admit, I've used a knife on enemies a very few times in deployment, but it was mostly luck.

The whole slashing then stabbing animation needs to go, it adds too much time for the enemy to react to if they manage to pick up on you getting ready to slice them. Make it a simple slash that registers a hit or make it a stab that registers a hit. As it was stated before, the whole animation's more about looking cool than effectiveness.

And the knife/bayonet deploy times are about the same currently, which shouldn't be the case at all. It doesn't take as long to draw a knife as it does to draw one and attach it to your rifle. In the bayonet attach animation, the troopers conveniently already have their bayonet in hand to attach.

The main issue with attempting to knife/bayonet somebody is it's pretty hard to approach somebody quickly yet silently. Also, they can always turn around to shoot you mid-slash. Unfortunately this game's engine won't allow you to get somebody in a hold and kill them that way. And since that's the case, there needs to be a more effective means to use these tools.

I'm going to say it again:
if you stab someone like that, that shouldn't kill them.

Think about games where knives are instant kill and fast attacking. Think about vanilla BF2: in many situations, I've had more success with a knife than with a pistol. It'd just be silly to make a quick swipe a single hit kill.

I don't mind a shorter animation if the damage wasn't as big. I mean, after knifing someone, they're not even wounded: they're dead. This just supports that the purpose of the knife is to kill someone stealthily instead of in a fast engagement when the knife would be unrealistic to use.

[KorD_]

It would be cool if knife and bayonet attacks was a bit faster.

[Tarranauha200]

I stopped reading after someone mentioned trowing and knifes in the same sentence.
How many soldiers in real life knows how to trow knife so it kills enemy?

[Mikemonster]

I thought that was a bit fruit-loopy too tbh. Pretty much the opposite of my suggestion to make knives realistic.

And Herbie, 'if someone rushes you with a knife and you nor your team mates shoot him, that's your fault not the game's.' doesn't really make much sense. Seeing as the knife will be only used in CQB situations and let's be honest, being 'tactical' in PR is a step too far.

[Marian]

Knife:
- sneak
- Run faster
Bayonet:
- Run faster
- More range