Alternative Insurgency

[Jafar Ironclad]

One of the biggest drawbacks I've observed with the insurgency game mode in my months of playing the mod is that has been naturally difficult to get an organized insurgent team (particularly on Iraqi Insurgent maps). While this does not directly affect the overall balance, I feel it does detract from the teamwork atmosphere present in conventional force situations; many insurgent teams resolve as many bands or lone wolves roaming around the map, with a few squads parked on known caches to defend them.
My hypothesis on this is that the insurgents lack a proactive, offensive objective beyond "kill Blufor", which is extremely general and freeform. In addition, the limitless tickets for insurgents (beyond the intel cost of death) often promote maneuvers with minimal self-preservation (not including, of course, suicide vehicles). Conventional forces, on the other hand, have only proactive, offensive objectives: search for caches, kill opfor, arrest collaborators and some insurgents, destroy caches.

The solution I propose involves mixing in a bit of AAS flavor while retaining the search-and-destroy objective.
-Cache deployment and destruction system remains essentially the same.
-Insurgents start with a ticket count that is substantially larger than that of Blufor, reflecting the asymmetrical balance of the game-type and the defensive nature of the insurgent position.

-Several control points (3+ on small maps, 5+ on 2km and 4km maps) are (randomly?) distributed throughout the important areas of the map. These start neutral.
-Collaborators and unarmed insurgents cannot influence flag capture. However, collaborators and unarmed arrested inside Blufor-controlled areas only return normal intel points (same as killing an armed insurgent). Armed insurgents always return heavy intel when arrested.
-There is no direct gameplay consequence for Blufor capturing a point.
-If the Insurgents capture a point from Blufor, they gain 30 tickets.
-While Blufor controls more than half the points on a map, intel rewards are doubled.
-While the Insurgents control more than half the points on a map, Blufor suffers minor-light ticket bleed. The bleed increases proportionally (but only slightly) with the number of lost caches.

-When a cache is destroyed, Blufor gains 30 tickets.
-When two caches are destroyed, Insurgents suffer permanent, minor ticket bleed.
-When four caches are destroyed, Insurgents suffer permanent, light ticket bleed.
-While Blufor controls more than half the points on a map, if six or more caches are destroyed, Insurgents suffer moderate ticket bleed.
-When nine caches are destroyed, Insurgents suffer catastrophic ticket bleed.

The idea is to provide an additional concrete offensive objective for the insurgents and defensive objective for Blufor.

Thoughts?

[Doc.Pock]

how would insurgents get some tickets back

[KP]

Refer to Gaz' announcement as to why the Suggestions section is locked (https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr ... ments.html).
The work that's obviously gone into making this thread is appreciated, but we still don't take suggestions outside the Suggestions section. I'm closing this for now, but if you want, either copy it or shoot me a PM so I can move it to the Suggestions section when that opens again.

Cheers,
KP

[KP]

Moved and reopened as agreed with the OP.

[Jafar Ironclad]

Much appreciated, thank you!

Thoughts, folks?

[Redamare]

yeah i agree there should be an ALT insurgency especially for insurgents faction. Could there be . . when a flag is taken a cache is automatically visible to the enemy? simulating ( an insurgent HQ location has been over run and locations on where caches are stored is now in the open for hunting down ) that would make some sense with a sort of Gain intel points not from arrests but from taking over Information rich locations. such as bunkers and head quarters.

[Wakain]

interesting idea, and frankly, I like it. I concur.
being an insurgent can be a lot of fun, but most of the time it's of dubious or very mild amusement because of the general lack of coordination and team spirit.

[Hulabi]

I love this. I really do.

[Bringerof_D]

@op: here's an idea, what if instead of ticket related. we make those flags cache related. Caches will fall within certain flag zones across the map, and the Known marker will not appear for the Blufor until that area's flag has been captured by blufor.

vice versa if recapped by the insurgency/taliban, the cache marker disappears.

ticket bleed if the Blufor currently holds no flags on the map.

[Lugi]

Nice idea bringerof but this:

vice versa if recapped by the insurgency/taliban, the cache marker disappears.

Disappearance of the marker won't help much if the cache location has been revealed.

[Trooper909]

No just no

[Mouthpiece]

@op: here's an idea, what if instead of ticket related. we make those flags cache related. Caches will fall within certain flag zones across the map, and the Known marker will not appear for the Blufor until that area's flag has been captured by blufor.

I like OP's idea only if it's combined with Bringerof_D idea.

vice versa if recapped by the insurgency/taliban, the cache marker disappears.

Maybe If recapped the cache location should change in few minutes? Can it be coded? This way capping a flag would be more important. It would probably make the game a lot harder for BLUFOR. But I like a challange.

[badmojo420]

I don't like the idea. Giving insurgents more offensive objectives will leave the caches undefended.

I think we need more non-respawning heavy assets(like tank on basrah) and mapper placed strong points (Like VCP on Basrah) which don't affect the results of the match directly, but have some affect on the morale and effectiveness of the blufor teams if the insurgents take or destroy them.

Another thing that could improve insurgency is easier spawn points for Opfor. Forget shoveling up hideouts. Increase the limit of possible hideouts. Reduce the overrun area. Allow emplacements to be built anywhere on the map. Allow any squad leader to place a hideout, regardless of kit. Let the whole team use any squads rally points.

And the biggest thing, make it next to impossible to destroy an unexposed cache with AT rockets/missiles. Make incendiary grenades the only thing that will destroy them, why not?


I think there needs to be another version of insurgency, but I don't think it should be like the OP suggested, simply adding AAS style flags to the cache system will only make the gameplay more spammy, chaotic and frustrating.

[Bringerof_D]

@Lugi: good point

Maybe If recapped the cache location should change in few minutes? Can it be coded? This way capping a flag would be more important. It would probably make the game a lot harder for BLUFOR. But I like a challange.

and thus a solution XD awesome idea mouthpiece. i had thought of that too but figured that might make things a little too complicated. realistically it would make sense that once the insurgency regains control of an area to relocate it's cache, however i felt that might become too complicated for a game.

perhaps the cache will only change location within that flag zone. so once recapped by INS/TAL, the cache after 1 minute would change to somewhere within the same area. Once captured by blufor 1 minute will pass before the marker shows up.

with this system we can remove the whole "intel" aspect of insurgency and make capping the flags represent scouting and patrolling an area as well as winning over that area's locals and gaining that intel. as it is now all the blufor do once they destroy the known caches is sit back and mow down anything they see with a machine gun or search common cache spawn points.

[Trooper909]

*snip*

Now we are cooking with gas..
My short and rather useless post above was due to the fact I didn't like the OP's idea but couldn't think of an alternative that didnt involve random spawn point's and such things that the devs have already stated will never return.Mojo's Idea is the best idea iv heard in awhile.

[ryan d ale]

I like the initial it is really something to consider.

Whilst the subject of improving TW among the insurgents is often raised this suggestion and thread seems to have some good ideas/discussion.

The drawback on this would be testing.

I'm assuming testers play together on a TS server.

What would really be needed would be a BETA game mode (rather than event) because it is obviously about random people coming together and trying to improve the teamwork and cohesion.

[killonsight95]

99% sure this is a re-suggestion.

bassically it boils down to, do it yourself:

why don't you make the map then? or edit some of the old maps, show us what you mean, and then we can talk more:
Community Maps - Project Reality Forums
PR:BF2 Community Modding - Project Reality Forums
Modding Tutorials - Project Reality Forums

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f189-m ... audit.html

There we go.

/Thread

[TheComedian]

99% sure this is a re-suggestion.

bassically it boils down to, do it yourself:

why don't you make the map then? or edit some of the old maps, show us what you mean, and then we can talk more:
Community Maps - Project Reality Forums
PR:BF2 Community Modding - Project Reality Forums
Modding Tutorials - Project Reality Forums

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f189-m ... audit.html

There we go.

/Thread

You forgot coding in a special layer that has caches and flags with python. Reconstructing intel gathering linked to flag radius.

Would you volunteer for python coding? I didn't think so.

@OP suggestion:

We would need brand new maps in order to do this. It will be nigh impossible for opfor to attack a flag with limited to no cover on maps such as Op Archer, Karbala Kokan, Albasrah.

[Sgt. Mahi]

I like the idea combined with Bringerof_D's idea also... Very much so... But I wonder if it's possible? It would be so much more dynamic gameplay for both teams if it could be done.

And yeah.. Killonsight95 this isn't a simple map layer issue, it's a question of python coding as TheComedian already said.

So yeah... there we go.

[ytman]

Jafar, from what I understand, certainly knows how to code so I don't doubt that he could at least attempt it.

Personally I like the core concept behind the suggestion but I dislike the implementation. Bleeding the Insurgents is like a bleeding caveman trapped between a dark dank cave of doing nothing and that big giant bear that chased him here. Either way he'll die.

Also you can't make the defending team split himself between multiple CPs and have to defend multiple Caches.

Personally, I think combining the bests of CnC-INS-AAS into a new INS mode would be the best bet to making it interesting and more symbolic of what real insurgency is. I personally have hopes that this is on track as the PR:ArmA manual mentions:

Randomly placed caches, requiring defending by Insurgents and intel gathering, then
destruction by Coalition side.

There is also an additional secondary objective which is like an objective in AAS, but
slightly different in result. It’s considered to be a Watchtower or Observation Post.
When this special zone is held by coalition, it will give them some additional IP and
the ticket bleed (caused from this zone) will stop, but if it is held by insurgents, then
it will become a ticket bleed to coalition with no IP benefits. So it’s in the interests of
insurgents to hold this zone too.

This is personally what I think the current PR:BF2 version of Insurgency needs. A single (at most 2) large CPs that should be held for a slow source of intel but if its lost the Blu-Force begins to bleed.