Fire extinguishers?

[Ninja2dan]

we would have to look at what nations use what for their vehicle extinguishers as i'm pretty sure Halon has never been used in the UK (in extinguishers at least) i think it would either be Powder or CO2 but someone from Bovi would be able to confirm.

E: Fire extinguishers with up to 79% discount and Next Day Delivery seems you can even get extinguishers that shoot chrome

From what I've seen in the past, Halon was used by a few other nations like the UK for limited periods of time. I think the final "Full Ban" on the use of Halon in the UK took place in 2003, but partial bans were already being put in place in the early 90's. This is all due to the Montreal Protocol and other similar bans around the globe at the time.

Places like the US have prohibited new manufacture of Halon systems, but it's still legal here to use "recycled" or refurbished units. We also have Halotron and other alternatives, although they don't work as well. In the UK, there are a few places that are still legally authorized to carry/use Halon 1211 and 1301 systems, notably certain aircraft systems. I also heard that some famous tunnel in the UK still uses Halon 1301 systems, just can't remember what the tunnel was called. From what I remember, FM-200 was very popular there as a viable alternative. The UK has also been a heavy user of CO2 systems.

No country would be dumb enough to use dry chemical agents on military equipment, nor would they use most liquid-based systems around sensitive equipment. The same type of extinguisher you might find in a home kitchen or under your car seat do not meet military or government standards. There are plenty of Halon alternatives available to anyone, even China.




I think this whole discussion really comes down to a few specific factors:

1) Can a hand-held fire suppression (extinguishers) system be done properly, in that it functions as intended (to stop vehicle burn) without allowing exploit of that system?

OR

2) If a hand-held unit can't be made to function as intended, can a vehicle-based system be used as an alternative and still avoid any exploitation?

AND

3) If either a hand-held or vehicle-based system can be done correctly, and avoid most exploit risk, can it be done easily enough to actually warrant the time/effort required to integrate as a new feature?






And no, you can't shoot chrome from an extinguisher

The only time I have really seen people using chrome extinguishers are the hot-rodders doing car shows, or maybe on a specialized parade/display vehicle. Personally, I prefer the red body color over silver/chrome.

[Hotrod525]

I think this whole discussion really comes down to a few specific factors:

1) Can a hand-held fire suppression (extinguishers) system be done properly, in that it functions as intended (to stop vehicle burn) without allowing exploit of that system?

Well a AFESS weapon slot with only 2 Discharge could fix the problem, actualy it dont "repair the vehicle" it just stop the "bleed"

2) If a hand-held unit can't be made to function as intended, can a vehicle-based system be used as an alternative and still avoid any exploitation?

Why make it handheld... just alof of trouble for nothing nah ?

3) If either a hand-held or vehicle-based system can be done correctly, and avoid most exploit risk, can it be done easily enough to actually warrant the time/effort required to integrate as a new feature?

Only a CODER can provide us a real answer no ?

[Rudd]

a driver controlled weapon that gives a X% boost of health to the vehicle wouldn't be hugely exploitable imo, since yes...you could use it to repair a bit in the field when not bleeding - but then you'd have to return to main before you could use it again since vehicles don't rearm in the field.

[Spec]

But is that worth being added? Does that have any impact on gameplay other than that you press a certain button when you're hit and then wait for a logi instead of just waiting for a logi? The handheld stuff at least would have some fancy animation and require you to expose yourself to save the vehicle...

[sylent/shooter]

IMO handheld would work better, minus the obvious exploits that could happen. I was thinking this...

Does anyone remember BFV? and how the shovel worked in the RFA coding. If you don't remember or never knew let me explain.

The shovel mechanism in BFV was always a slot in the specific kit. You could select it but you couldn't do anything with it... UNLESS, you happened to pick up the tunnel static(?) that was on the map by using the "G" key. This in turn would enable the shovel and now since it had ammo you could place the tunnel on the map using the shovel.

Much like that above idea, I propose that if we can do that in the refractor engine, have a mesh file of the extinguisher in the kit and available to be selected, then by placing "static objects" that act as the ammo for the extinguisher at the main one could spawn in, run over to the extinguisher ammo and select it using "G".

Now seeing as the only way to use the extinguisher would be with the crewman kit, that when the extinguisher is "loaded", pray tell, they would be able to heal the vehicle from the brink of breaking point.

Once the extinguisher is unloaded, they must go back to the main and select another "cartridge" for the device via the "G" button.

Now the obvious question, what stops the crewman from grabbing one per crewman ? and having potentially 3 for a tank.

If you only had say, one "ammo" spawn every 10 minutes or so, that overrides the other ammo there (if it spawns on the same spot) then only one would be available for pick up every 10 minutes.

dependant on the amount of vehicles maybe we could have 2 lockers that "spawn" the ammo from them. If we link text to the pick up of the ammo like in the "rally point now armed" it would let us know the invisible ammo in the lockers was picked up.

EG. " fire extinguisher acquired"


thoughts?

[Rhino]

And honestly, standing there for long times just spraying the tank with foam is certainly not realistic. These extinguishers don't have unlimited content in real life either, a crewman standing there and spraying the tank for 20 minutes until a logi arrives isn't more realistic than what we currently have.

Indeed, why its not my favourite idea I'm just putting it on the table for consideration.

How about you make a manual field dressing for vehicles? One that can only be obtained when your vehicle is below a certain HP level? The extinguisher would be a kit containing only the extinguisher, so you need someone outside the vehicle to pick it up and use it. It should not allow itself to be rearmed, and must be discarded after use as there is nothing else to do with it.

The extinguisher could only heal the vehicle by a certain amount, and a different number could be requested per vehicle; OR each vehicle could get its own extinguisher that heals the appropriate amount.

In either case a vehicle could only be healed a certain amount and then you need some more help to heal it further. Only a set number would be available for each vehicle, you could only get them from the damaged vehicle (not an undamaged vehicle near the damaged one), and only if the vehicle has a low enough health.

This still has the basic problem with it still being able to be reloaded from ammo sources, mainly the ammo boxes that are dumped out the back of the APC. But nice idea on getting python in the mix to only allow you to request it when the vehicle has low HP, but can't see it really working that well.

a driver controlled weapon that gives a X% boost of health to the vehicle wouldn't be hugely exploitable imo, since yes...you could use it to repair a bit in the field when not bleeding - but then you'd have to return to main before you could use it again since vehicles don't rearm in the field.

Like spec said, its not worth adding that as bailing out is much more realistic and better for gameplay than being able to still sit in your tank when its on fire and shoot back at the enemy tank, where in that situation you really should be getting the feck out of there

[Spec]

An idea (although I'm really coming up with weird stuff that probably isn't really useful now, but we're brain storming here, so I'll just post what I think):

Seperate 'driver' and 'crewman' kits. Driver gets the same equipment as the regular crewman, but can only be requested at the main repair station, is required to operate the driver seat (can operate all other seats however; you can still switch to the machine gun to turn off a tank engine for instance), and has an extinguisher. That extinguisher has a regular animation and stuff but doesn't actually do anything. It is however required to have the extinguisher in your hand to open the Q menu and request an invisible repair crate thing (perhaps, to know where it is, not make it invisible but have it be a new model that looks like some stuff that could logically be lying around next to a burning vehicle... I dunno what. Maybe a piece of debris covered in foam or so. Or just a pile of foam). This object has NO collision mesh at all, but heals vehicles that are very close to it. It needs to be 'shovelled' with the extinguisher.

That's a VEEEEEEERY complex work-around, but it means that only ONE crew member per vehicle can use it (who only can get his kit at main, so there's no chance of infantry or other crewmen helping out unless another vehicle driver happens to be close enough... Then you're lucky I guess, but you could still make a timer that doesn't allow another foam pile to be created in the area for a while), and it'd be limited in ammunition (it can only be deployed once every 30 minutes per kit or so, unless you went back to main or to a repair station/crate/thing, then it's available again).

I hope that was understandable. It could probably work, but it'd be... a lot of work just to get around that limitation. And it'd obviously look a bit weird. Also, drivers disconnecting would now leave the vehicle completely immobilized. (You could do the same with the gunner kit though, then the vehicle would at least be able to RTB - the gunner kit would then be required to operate the gunner position, while a regular crewman kit would work for driving and machine gunning).

[Rhino]

Way to complex to be useful and will just make the learning curve for new players even steeper with no real gain. Will also have a negative impact on gameplay where you end up with two players with either driver or gunner kits (as that is what they wanted to do but didn't communicate), but only one vehicle

[Hunt3r]

For some reason I think the simplest solution of just getting rid of the burning effect and adding a warning when at the critical threshold where the "bleed" began is enough of a cue to bail, in game people will still try to shoot to kill whatever was firing at it if it existed bleed or no bleed, but there should be no reason why a person that managed to escape and RTB should suddenly catch on fire because the track landed on the ground wrong while driving over a molehill.

In short, this suggestion wouldn't change gameplay at all, as it is for griefers/accidental out of bounds kills you still have to either run in and get back the tank by driving it back, or you have to destroy it. A driver/crewman kit just makes the entire system overcomplicated because all crewmembers are at least somewhat trained on all the positions. Fire extinguishers in real life are automatic, essentially instantaneous, and pretty much guarantee that anything short of a ammo rack hit will be put out.

In regards to the out of bounds issue, I suggest increasing the out of bounds limit to 30-60 seconds for all maps/modes to reduce the chance that a vehicle is lost out of bounds, and then at a certain point just put deep water if a vehicle is well past the boundary so it can be destroyed.

Vehicles left out on the combat area should stick around, it's the team's responsibility to make sure vehicles are recovered. That, and it introduces some incentive for the enemy team to try and kill all the crew but leave the vehicles intact.

[piepieonline]

...
Like spec said, its not worth adding that as bailing out is much more realistic and better for gameplay than being able to still sit in your tank when its on fire and shoot back at the enemy tank, where in that situation you really should be getting the feck out of there

Could it be possible to make it a driver 'weapon', of which the reload time is = to the repair time from start bleed% to 100%?

As to stop people being able to sit in the armour and shoot, code it so the gunner must be outside the vehicle for it to work? I'm thinking like the gunner needing a driver to change into that seat?

This would quite possibly be overkill/pointless, but I can't imagine any exploits off the top of my head, and I must say that I love the idea.

[Hjid]

Afaik you can prevent the ammo refilling on the extinguisher by using a (really) long reload time.

One thing you could do is to make the extinguisher it's own kit that is limited to being requested at the vehicle and is limited in number.

[Spec]

Afaik you can prevent the ammo refilling on the extinguisher by using a (really) long reload time.

Reload time can't differ from weapon to weapon, otherwise we wouldn't have the "ammo bag can refill itself" issue.

[Hjid]

I mean the time it takes for you to reload the magazine in a handgun which can differ pretty much.

This line:

Code: Select all

ObjectTemplate.ammo.reloadTime 999999

So you would just have to hope for the round to end before they are able to use the second magazine in their extinguisher.

[Spec]

Ah, you mean the actual reload time of the weapon. Yeah, true. But you can probably skip that somehow as well.

[Sgt.Desert Tiger[TR]]

how often is it that a vehicle is brought to burning where the crew has time to bail out, switch weapons, and stand there for 5 seconds to do something?

I can imagine all the situations mentioned which can sue this as an exploit but the situations to allow that exploit is so specific that it might never happen.

Here:
on board fire extinguisher, have it set as a weapon for the driver/pilot. it will last 10 seconds and only enough to counter act the burning of the vehicle. this will give enough time for crew and passengers to bail out, and increase the survivability of helicopters allowing them to crash land.

in previous versions the disable effect the choppers were supposed to create this possibility, however the burn and crash itself tended to make this very rare that it would even make it to the ground or not just explode on impact due to the health loss in the burn before the crash.

I have a video and so many time when I explode my arty ied while apc exactly on it apc burnt and stop than all crew run away and I didnt get any kill only apc down.

But with this both apc and crew will survive of opfors attacks.And this make this game even worst than this.You take techies gun zoom too so we lost last thing we have for attack bluefor from distance while even their inf take all of us down like sniper.

[maniac1031]

;1662609']I have a video and so many time when I explode my arty ied while apc exactly on it apc burnt and stop than all crew run away and I didnt get any kill only apc down.

But with this both apc and crew will survive of opfors attacks.And this make this game even worst than this.You take techies gun zoom too so we lost last thing we have for attack bluefor from distance while even their inf take all of us down like sniper.

You could always shoot the dismounted inf? They are kind of vulnerable with a fire extinguisher in there hands.

And that's the way it should be the ins should be extremely inferior to bluefor and should need to use ambush hit and run tactics to defeat them not full on frontal assaults that we see in pr.

[Bringerof_D]

;1662609']I have a video and so many time when I explode my arty ied while apc exactly on it apc burnt and stop than all crew run away and I didnt get any kill only apc down.

But with this both apc and crew will survive of opfors attacks.And this make this game even worst than this.You take techies gun zoom too so we lost last thing we have for attack bluefor from distance while even their inf take all of us down like sniper.

i've seen crews bail, but very rarely successfully. most times 80% of the occupants either dont bail out fast enough and die inside, or get killed by the blast immediately after bailing out.

thats a problem with your play style, i love playing on the insurgent side specifically because we are gimped. i cannot rely on my accuracy at range and i cannot rely on having more firepower or armor. work with the element of surprise in mind. i have out maneuvered and decimated entire blufor squads on my own before and on occasion doing so to APCs and CROWs humvees. it's not that hard.

On my own terms i will always win. remember that.

[lukeyu2005]

Any possibility of linking fire extinguisher = temporarily lowering point of when bleeding starts for say 5 mins.
So you have a chance to RTB.

Also about vehicles blowing up and not enough time to use fire extinguishers. I think not sure but i think vehicles last longer with people in it. I remember being in a btr60 that was on fire for 20 or 30 secs spamming the team chat for the logi to get it's arse over here. I lost my nerve and ran when it started exploding. And it exploded just as the logi arrived.

Anyway moral of the story. I think bleeding vehicles last longer with people inside. So have your gunner jump out and extinguish the fire with the driver waiting inside or vice versa.

[Sgt.Desert Tiger[TR]]

i've seen crews bail, but very rarely successfully. most times 80% of the occupants either dont bail out fast enough and die inside, or get killed by the blast immediately after bailing out.

thats a problem with your play style, i love playing on the insurgent side specifically because we are gimped. i cannot rely on my accuracy at range and i cannot rely on having more firepower or armor. work with the element of surprise in mind. i have out maneuvered and decimated entire blufor squads on my own before and on occasion doing so to APCs and CROWs humvees. it's not that hard.

On my own terms i will always win. remember that.

I dont say improve opfors long range fight power.I am saying decrease bluefors long range fight power little bit because they can act like sniper with their rifleman weapons.

I recorded video.In that video arty ied expolded under apc and apc move 100-125m more than this and crew bail out and nobody died because of injury or apc explode.Even they open fire on me after leave apc.

Do you think any apc survive in real life when masive explotion accure under of it???

This mod going unreal more than real in last few patches and if this going on like this nobody want to play on insurgency maps as opfor.

[chilean]

when the fire extinguishers is used on a vehicle, disable its turrent so it would force them to RTB anyway (the thing is to able to save somehow the vehicle). once in the repair station the turrent is usable again.