Fools Road

[Hannes_Sbg]

I want to suggest some minor changes in Fools Road. In my opinion Fools Road is a good but somehow strange map. On one hand it is asymmetrical: Militia has inferior equipment (cant choose between scopes/unscoped weapons), emplacement (spg-9 vs. tow, no hmg) and assets (no tanks). On the other hand the map is symmetrical: Both teams spawn in main and having the same distance to flags.
The map seems not unbalanced, because GB players tend to do two mistakes: a) Wasting their assets and thereby loosing a lot of tickets and b) always using scoped weapons loosing gunfights in the woods.
If a GB team aviods these basic mistakes, Milita does struggle. The Challenger 2 is a strong tank and if played well Milita will have a hard time to destroy it. The GB range superiority limits Milita movement to the woodlands, while GB controls the open space.

However I dont want to suggest to change assets. I want to suggest to give Milita an asymmetrical map advantage to balance the GB equipment advantage. Lets take a look at the map:



This map seems perfect for a scenario: GB just got control of the Brige and established a brigedhead in enemy territory (Dylum Village). Their task is to defend the brige and secure the area (meaning map). Milita has control over the rest of the map, having time to prepare ambushes and fortifications. Their task is to stop GBs advance and to push them on the other side of the river.

All I suggest to give GB a 5min spawn point in Dylum Village and Milita 5min spawn points in Train Depot, Helicopter Base and Hill Estate plus some light vehicles on those points. I think this will give Milita an early advantage in terms of map control. If Milita does play well, GB will be stuck in the Dylum Village bottleneck. However, if Milita fails, GB will capture the flags, rip of Militas tickets and gain the battlefield width to take advantage of their assets.

Im not a modder and only have a basic understanding of control points and spawn points. Forgive me if Im wrong, but afaik those changes should be easy.

[Stealthgato]

Milita should be getting BMPs on the next big release. At least I hope so.

[Mouthpiece]

Actually I really like the suggestion (in a feedback section; how crazy!). IMO the map would play more Kozelsk-like where Militians aren't so underpowered as in Fools Road. Maybe adding a few more AT gun emplacements thus simulating that the defenders (Militia) are dug in more deeper (it's their territory, they have a villa ffs)? Now that they have zoom I find them a lot more useful.

Anyway, now It's like any AAS map, but IMO it should be like OP said - because of the asymmetrical balance we should give Militia something more to counter the massive british firepower potential.

[Nixy23]

There's two sides to this map, as you've already said.

Either the GB forces do not use their assets properly (using the Warriors as transport.. for one!) which can make them lose the battle pretty quickly. The other side of that statement is true as well: If the Militia do not use their assets properly, they will lose pretty quickly.

What assets am I talking about? The BRDM Spandrel and the SPG-9 technical. The Spandrel needs to take out the Challengers, because otherwise the round can be pretty much lost already. The SPG-9 must be used in a versatile role to engage in hit-and-run tactics against the GB Warriors, and in some extreme cases use FRAG rounds as mortars on a concentration of infantry. I never see the 14.5mm BRDM's being used either.. I guess people also do not know how to use them in ambushes.

The thing with adding static spawn points however, is that they beat the purpose of AASv4? I think this map got updated, because I'm always getting pretty straight forward capture zones. A: Diagonally from Militia to GB base. B: West Ridge - Train Depot - Mining Facility, aka the south road. Or C: North Road, Helicopter Base and East Ridge, aka the northern road (of course, other flags around these roads are also possible, it's just to give a general indication).

If the Militia faction has all the flags except for the Bridge/Village, and can spawn on the front lines it would mainly be a single sided battle like Kozelsk, with the exception of there being no tunnel complex which can't be captured. I think it's good the way it is.. with the exception of maybe a few changes in Militia assets.

- One or two more field cannons (as proposed by OP): One covering the southern road. Maybe somewhere west in the hills of Train Depot.

- Swapping the 14.5mm BRDM's for something with a little more fire power. Perhaps even a second Spandrel. I'm well aware that if used properly, two of these beauties working together can take out a Warrior.. but sadly they are never used like that.

- Give the Militia team one barrage of Area Attack. One time use, no recharging. They are defending their lands here. Wouldn't they have some heavy counter measures?

Also: I do think this belongs partially in the suggestions forum, but it is also constructive feedback of the map.. hm.. decisions..


Also 2:

Now that they have zoom I find them a lot more useful.

The field cannons already had zoom.

Also 3:

emplacement (spg-9 vs. tow, no hmg)

Militia do have HMGs to deploy at FOBs.

[Maverick]

On a small note, you can choose between scoped/ironsights(if the weapon allows it) Just left click for the scoped version, right click for the ironsight version(When your requesting your kit at a crate, not when you spawn in)

[Rudd]

Perhaps this would be a good oppotunity to use the 32 layer in this map

64 - defensive based militia team (kozelsk style, first and possible 2nd tier flags in Militia hands already) with temp spawn points at strategic locations (such as AT gun positions) without the spandrel etc. Decrease the number of Brit vehicles slightly (perhaps offsetting with a landy or two to ensure transport) to compensate for loss of Militia AT vehicles (so like 1 C2, and 3 Warriors, perhaps 1 of the 3 warriors on delayed spawn)

32 - A more aggressive militia team including the Spandrel, SPG-9 and perhaps even the T62 (62?), rejiggle it with teh BMP when its read for a more symmetrical layout, with Brits as they are now, flags as they are now.

or 32 being 64 or vice versa

Hanne Sbg shouldn't really be making suggestions with his postcount, but the thread has merit, so I'm happy to discuss it

[PLODDITHANLEY]

Nice idea Rudd:

64(std) for normal play
32(alt) for hardcore mega TW kind of thing.

[Hannes_Sbg]

Thanks for all the replies.

Rudd]Hanne Sbg shouldn't really be making suggestions with his postcount

I?m aware of the post count you need to have to post in "PR:BF2 Suggestions". I couldnt find any suggestions concerning flags or spawn points on already existing maps in the "Already Suggested Suggestions". Seems to me more like a place to suggest new addons to the mod (like the "Fire extinguishers" right now). Thats why I decided to post this in the feedback forum. In my opinien feedback should provide some suggestions in the sense of constructive criticism. Im still unsure if this is the right place, didnt intent to bypass the post count rule. ops:

The BRDM Spandrel and the SPG-9 technical. The Spandrel needs to take out the Challengers, because otherwise the round can be pretty much lost already. The SPG-9 must be used in a versatile role to engage in hit-and-run tactics against the GB Warriors, and in some extreme cases use FRAG rounds as mortars on a concentration of infantry. I never see the 14.5mm BRDM's being used either.. I guess people also do not know how to use them in ambushes.

The Militia has assets to counter the GB assets. The GB assets are mulit purpose and strong against vehicles and infantry. Spandrel and SPG-9 technical are limited (armor, ammunition, capability against infantry) and therefor harder to play.

The thing with adding static spawn points however, is that they beat the purpose of AASv4? I think this map got updated, because I'm always getting pretty straight forward capture zones. A: Diagonally from Militia to GB base. B: West Ridge - Train Depot - Mining Facility, aka the south road. Or C: North Road, Helicopter Base and East Ridge, aka the northern road (of course, other flags around these roads are also possible, it's just to give a general indication).

Look at the picture I posted above. The color lines indicate the four routes. You will always play one of them. As far as I know you cant link (temp) spawn points to the route, meaning if you play the red route you get a spawn point at helicopter base, playing the yellow you get one at train depot. Thats why I suggested one spawn point per route. Could be that player will spawn at the wrong spawn point. Some do that on Silent Eagle and cant find the way out of Tunnel Complex .

Militia do have HMGs to deploy at FOBs.

You are right, should have checked that before posting.

On a small note, you can choose between scoped/ironsights(if the weapon allows it) Just left click for the scoped version, right click for the ironsight version(When your requesting your kit at a crate, not when you spawn in)

Depends on the fraction. You wont get a scpoed milita rifleman. Only marksmen and sniper are scoped.

[Rudd]

Im still unsure if this is the right place, didnt intent to bypass the post count rule.

its ok, generally you require 25 posts before being able to post suggestions (it avoids alot of resuggestions etc as most new users aren't as considerate as you have been) but you clearly have the consideration required to post suggestions once you reach 25 posts you'll be able to post in the suggestions area properly

[AFsoccer]

I think using the 32 layer is a good idea. That way if it doesn't work as planned, we can choose not to load it.

However... maybe it's just my experience... but this is one map that most closely meets the 50/50 balance we strive for. Meaning that I've seen the Brits win about half of the time and I've seen Militia win half of the time, so I'm not sure it really needs more DEV time and energy whereas other maps still do.

[Mantak08]

Perhaps this would be a good oppotunity to use the 32 layer in this map

64 - defensive based militia team (kozelsk style, first and possible 2nd tier flags in Militia hands already) with temp spawn points at strategic locations (such as AT gun positions) without the spandrel etc. Decrease the number of Brit vehicles slightly (perhaps offsetting with a landy or two to ensure transport) to compensate for loss of Militia AT vehicles (so like 1 C2, and 3 Warriors, perhaps 1 of the 3 warriors on delayed spawn)

32 - A more aggressive militia team including the Spandrel, SPG-9 and perhaps even the T62 (62?), rejiggle it with teh BMP when its read for a more symmetrical layout, with Brits as they are now, flags as they are now.

or 32 being 64 or vice versa

Hanne Sbg shouldn't really be making suggestions with his postcount, but the thread has merit, so I'm happy to discuss it

could it be offset with a Panther, the 7.62 crows thing? i would like to see this asset used on more maps.

[stealth420]

For the love of RAPTOR JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




please put helicopters on the 32 layer of fools road


This map is beuitful and i would like to experience it from the air doing CAS or Transport missions for the team

"
GB could use 1 Lynx and 1 Apache only if Militia has BMPs and AA Vehicles in the 32 layer



Thats a big if but i think some helos on this map would work nice just like Al Basrah.

[PFunk]

In my experience the flag layouts actually had the tendency to be slanted against the Brits in recent versions. This only started however with the addition of those middle-of-nowhere flags that occupied strange positions. Flags like Hill 122 and Hill 90 which could offer the Brits a seriously slower initial cap seeing as how there is no fast way to get there in vehicles. On the other side the Militia would have a much easier job of getting to their flags because of the fact that Techies are fantastic offroad vehicles mixed with the fact that the hills are less sheer approaching the centre from their main whereas the Brits are faced with impassable terrain for much of the way.

I believe I read that this was changed recently but I can't confirm because this favourite map of mine isn't on server rotations nearly often enough for my taste. Without those issues however I see Fool's Road as being one of the most absolutely well balanced maps ever put in PR.

In many respects the Militia seem to have the on paper advantages. They sport the effective CQB weapon, they have faster vehicles which cost them less when lost and allow them to deploy quickly while the Brits are not afforded such luxurious mobility because armor is simply not designed to function in the trees and struggles on much of the hilly areas. There are certain areas which this armor can dominate but the Militia Spandrel does a fine job of checking Brit armored mobility when staging ambushes from high in the treeline facing bends in the roads, such as the one which approaches train depot.

A smart and well organized militia team can be devastating against armor at just about any part of the map where there isnt a strong Brit infantry presence to root out flanking AT ambushes.

Fact is that in many cases Fool's Road is the Militia's to lose. They do not attack as well past the middle of the map but excel in engaging infantry in the trees and can do a good job of keeping the armor from pushing past the SE corner of the map.

I don't think that we should take things like the expectation of the sloppy loss of assets as being a part of balancing a map. Its something that is part of the dynamic of a round and not really a concern for the map designer unless they feel that someone losing one asset could shatter the entire side's ability to even hold ground (such as if the US lost the TOW Humvee in the final iteration of EJOD before it was removed).

The best thing that can be done for Fool's Road is to place it on a pedestal and say 'thats the model, we must aim to do that more often' and leave it be. Nothing can be accomplished except to annoy this PR player by further tinkering with the game. A fancy new 32 layer would be nice, but the traditional balance of the 64 layer since the Brits were re-introduced is PR gold to me.

[Hannes_Sbg]

However... maybe it's just my experience... but this is one map that most closely meets the 50/50 balance we strive for.

Is there any empirical data regarding map balance? Without them we are all more or less limited to guess if its balanced. I made my guess in the first post. I want to add that fools road is - in my experience - a below avarage played map. Unbalance could be a reason for that.

I would offer you my help to create a 32 layer. Im just completly unexperienced. I only played around with the GamePlayObjects.con to get some basic understanding of Control Points and I have no idea how much work this could be...

[AFsoccer]

We don't have empirical data but are working on a program that will do just that. Rudd brought up the idea in the DEV forum to track which maps are played, which team wins, by how much, etc. So the DEVs are trying to resurect an old program that might possibly provide this (if we're able to tweak it).

Creating a layer isn't that hard to do. We just try to keep the patch sizes down and thus don't create layers unless there is a benefit (i.e. it offers different gameplay, etc.). I'm not saying a 32/Alternate layer isn't needed, but that's why it wasn't already part of the map.

I think Fools Road isn't on the top of the play list any more because it's old and the preference nowadays seems to be on city maps. I love it (and always have) but that's probably why we don't see it played that much.

I'll take all of this into consideration prior to the next update. Thanks again.

[Bob of Mage]

The big issue is that the Militia is not an insurgent faction like HAMAS, the Taliban, or the Iraqi Insurgents, nor is it a regular faction like a NATO nation. The thing that the Militia seems to lack is anything that's between a soft skined vehicle and a MBT. If they had something like a BTR-60 or some MT-LBs (plus the upcoming BMP-1) and maybe a Hind if anyone gets around to it, in even small numbers it would make the faction seem to fit it's middle ground between random guys with guns and a world class army.

Also why did the Militia lose it's buildable AA? It's not like giving them a buildable AA is equal to giving them FLIR sights. As far as I know only Dragonfly has any aircaft in it.

[Rudd]

Also why did the Militia lose it's buildable AA? It's not like giving them a buildable AA is equal to giving them FLIR sights. As far as I know only Dragonfly has any aircaft in it.

1 lynx...such a formidable foe

[Kain888]

We don't have empirical data but are working on a program that will do just that. Rudd brought up the idea in the DEV forum to track which maps are played, which team wins, by how much, etc. So the DEVs are trying to resurect an old program that might possibly provide this (if we're able to tweak it).

Wow nice to hear it. My dream comes true.

PR has the biggest balance issues that I have seen in any game, especially on maps by some mappers, I really wish you the best and hope you will be successful in bringing some kind of balance standardization to the PR. ^^

[Hannes_Sbg]

We don't have empirical data but are working on a program that will do just that.

Thats great. I already planed to suggest that once Ive reached the post requirements to do so . Hope you get the coding done. I?m curious what the results will be.

I'll take all of this into consideration prior to the next update. Thanks again.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[Rudd]

Wow nice to hear it. My dream comes true.

PR has the biggest balance issues that I have seen in any game, especially on maps by some mappers, I really wish you the best and hope you will be successful in bringing some kind of balance standardization to the PR. ^^

MORE FEEDBACK MORE THREADS GOGOGOGO!

This is like the only good map feedback thread in ages, need MOAR!