Teamwork

[Durkie]

@thecomedian

If you don't want to read it all don't take part in the discussion.

Ontopic:

I have to agree with Pfunk on this without flags everybody will just be all across the map not working together at all. especially on 4km maps where the distances are just to large to quickly respond. You need some sort of objective where everybody is centred to get some good teamwork.

[Arc_Shielder]

How are you supposed to trust players more when this community is filled with untalented, bad players?

Sex, even if I shared that idea that most players are really bad, what does trust have anything to do with lack of skills?

If you're leading, then following your orders should be good enough. That's teamwork.

[saXoni]

How can you trust a player when you're not sure if he will be able to complete the tasks you give him?
Even though he tries, it doesn't mean that he will be able to complete them.

[PFunk]

@Pfunk

I find most of your posts too long to read. You should try to make your point as short and clear as possible.

I'm not talking to you, I'm talking to Wicca.

You don't wanna read thats fine by me.

[Mikemonster]

How can you trust a player when you're not sure if he will be able to complete the tasks you give him?
Even though he tries, it doesn't mean that he will be able to complete them.

The trouble I find is that the other SL's are invariably muted, so teamwork is nigh on impossible.

Bad SL's are usually either suicidal or immobile. If I know which one the bad SL is I can work around it.

And when you are talking to the other SL's, lack of cohesion can be a problem, but I believe it's lack of practise that causes it. I.e. two inf squads struggle to be co-ordinated in moving and attacking because the SL's haven't got many [any] hours of experience in doing that.

But I believe that will get better with time as the new Mumble system is taken up by everyone.

[PFunk]

Bad SL's are usually either suicidal or immobile. If I know which one the bad SL is I can work around it.

From the 'need a mic?' thread:

I am very opinionated while I'm playing. If the SL is stalling on a decision or we're in a bad spot I'm usually pissing and moaning "We gotta move or we're gonna get fucked".

You see? I can barely enjoy a round without being SL when I'm not playing with my friends.


Here's the ironic thing. Practice isn't popular, ever. Trying to get good at something... how many people can say that they've spent 4 straight hours in a local server trying to figure out the drop on LAT rounds? Most who say no probably aren't GODS with the LAT. I'm no god with an LAT but I was extremely unhappy with my confidence with it, so I went and put some practice in on it, so that I could look like a baws when I got my one LAT shot per round.

I think most people who play SL, at least a lot of the, aren't doing it cause they even really want to. A lot of the time its cause nobody will and so they just go with it. Sometimes they're pretty good, but they don't do it enough to be better than their natural inclination, you know how someone is naturally good but that just means they're better than someone else without any practice.

Maybe we need an SL school, run once a month. You look at heavy teamwork communities, like United Operations, they have regular training events. UO is interesting because its basically a server that acts like a community where its assumed you know what you're doing, but nobody is gonna stop you from being the CO or an SL. But if you don't know what the hell you're doing then you will ruin the whole team's time. They have trainings for the public on everything, from the ACRE radio mod, to basic tactics, etc. Its like a PR public server with 100% coordination. Kind of a wet dream scenario.

Maybe our SLs just need a bit of hand holding so they don't suck. I know when I started out SLing I looked for someone to teach me something. Basically I never found that in this community, not a single 'sign up here' thing.

[Tit4Tat]

Noobs is whats keeps PR alive people...wake up and smell the coffe. Everybody is jumping on the bandwagon saying "no more teamwork, pr vets retired etc etc" i have found a server that i enjoy and has everything i need too have a great PR experince with noobs and vets alike....this ia ALL i need in the couple(or more) hours that i play pr....most people on this thread sound more and more L33t uber vets like players, which cant play pr properly due to the fact that WE are all noobs........if thats the case.....this game shoudnt be for you

[Mikemonster]

Pfunk, I also struggle to be in a squad that is badly led, that's why I don't generally do it. It's all too easy to notice that the proposed charge into the enemy will just be suicide.

There is an information assymetry however (the SL's sometimes know more than is worth sharing), and as well as that as we know when SL it's easy to become 'overloaded' due to having lots of comms coming in (squad, team, CO, assets etc).

Recently I joined a squad because I had no time to make my own, and it was run by a mate who must have only led for 5 days max (he's new). He made tactical errors and micromanaged a bit too much, but essentially he had that 'spark' that is required to lead.

I know for a fact that in a fortnight he'll be twice as good as he was then, perhaps three times as good.

When it comes to practise, by 'practising' I just meant 'doing', ie. just getting in hours in that role. Nothing wrong with practising in Local servers, however I don't think it's abosolutely necessary.

My comment on co-ordinating with other SL's needing practise was much the same. Even on comms it's hard to co-ordinate a two squad inf attack, but with an hours experience it will undoubtedly get easier.


Personally, with regards to learning to SL, I started off just making squads called 'NEW SL' and explained to the guys joining what my position was. I learnt a lot of experienced guys just don't enjoy leading, personally I do and I got better with practise.

[Mikemonster]

Noobs is whats keeps PR alive people...wake up and smell the coffe. Everybody is jumping on the bandwagon saying "no more teamwork, pr vets retired etc etc" i have found a server that i enjoy and has everything i need too have a great PR experince with noobs and vets alike....this ia ALL i need in the couple(or more) hours that i play pr....most people on this thread sound more and more L33t uber vets like players, which cant play pr properly due to the fact that WE are all noobs........if thats the case.....this game shoudnt be for you

Thanks for giving your opinion, however what do you want from PR? What is your idea of a 'great PR experience'?

Everyone wants slightly different things (or very different things). I know that some people are happy to just fly a heli around and drop crates. Others (me included) want a co-ordinated battlefield, with squads working together in a fashion similar to what I feel a real battle would be.

There's no right and wrong and everyone has different expectations. PR wouldn't work if that was't true as nobody would fly trans, or be prepared to just play medic, etc etc.

But in general I feel that new guys should not lead squads until they are capable communicators [with other SL's].

[Mikemonster]

Personally I feel that teamwork needs two things to prosper in PR right now:

# Refreshing of the FOB structure. No more Logi trucks.
# Fewer assets and [proportionately] more infantry.

Simply put, I think there are too many 'toys' and the systems in place for FOB building are too time consuming and complex (for a team to co-ordinate).

K.I.S.S. - Is the game about teamwork and simulating a small battlefield, or is it about simulating a combined arms exercise?

I think at the moment there is a disproportionate emphasis on assets and that it is too tiring to play SL of an inf squad. This is fine if you drive a tank or fly a heli because they spawn at main, but if you want to play a footsoldier all to often the game is boring or you put in a lot of effort just to see it all torn down before you/not pay off. ALso, personally, I feel like a **** if I cannot give my SM's a fun round (which is not possible at the moment due to so many external failures of a team based on all of the enemies toys and a lack of Logis).

I would love to fight with three full Inf squads against three full Inf squads (with supporting assets). What I don't enjoy doing is being a 'Squad Leader Commanding Officer' entailing spending 30mins getting a crate to build a FOB to support my unilateral attack (because there is only one other Inf squad). And then if we fail w ehave to do it again.

It would work better if all of the assets were always on mumble, however I think there are too many assets in relation to us 'squishies' that build FOBs.

[Rudd]

Good post mike

[PFunk]

Simply put, I think there are too many 'toys' and the systems in place for FOB building are too time consuming and complex (for a team to co-ordinate).

K.I.S.S. - Is the game about teamwork and simulating a small battlefield, or is it about simulating a combined arms exercise?

Thats how I've started to feel about PR. Ironically as the Devs come closer to achieving their goal of creating a 'realistic' battlefield, or whatever can be done to bring it closer, the harder it gets to actually have fun when things aren't going right, which is sadly most of the time.

Assets are cool, but sometimes there are too many and it detracts from the value of just playing grunt. This is why I like INS so much. Most of the time there aren't THAT many assets involved out of an effort to keep it balanced for the Insurgents so you don't suffer as badly when they're not playing along properly.

PR is best realized in an organized tournament or clan match. Public play however, struggles to keep up with that. Where clans and teams spend time (hours sometimes) preparing plans for specific maps, not to mention countless more hours just playing together practicing all that lovely teamwork stuff, public players walk in and need to somehow generate that spontaneously.

The more complicated the requirements of a PR map are for effective teamwork, the more often it'll go haywire and it'll suck, even for those doing it right.

Maybe thats what changed from previous versions; the players stayed the same, but the curve just got proportionally sharper.

[Arc_Shielder]

Maybe thats what changed from previous versions; the players stayed the same, but the curve just got proportionally sharper.

I like this theory.

[Oskar]

I can only agree with Mikemonster and Pfunk on this.
I don't really feel like teamwork is declining in PR, but it sure as hell is a lot more difficult to make it work nowadays. I get bored quickly as a squad leader even with a fairly good team, with the amount of heavy assets that can easily turn a game around without much effort from the people behind the steel plates.

Now I myself enjoy playing with APCs and tanks and I find that aspect of this game, coordinating with armour and CAS to be the most immersive and unique aspect - there's just too many of them. It's an issue with balance.

[AFsoccer]

Remind your favorite server admins that almost every map has an alternate and infantry layer... so you don't have to worry about combined arms. The layers are there yet I rarely see them played.

[Wicca]

Problem is, i would love 1 jet. And 1 tank. And thats it. The rest can be light veichles like hummers and 50 cal apcs or trans helis.

It doesnt have to be the biggest badest shit, and then just 5 of each kind.

If perhaps the layers were aligned more to what sort of combat you would expect on the field, instead of the numbers of players.

Or have one layer that has 1 of each asset. Instead of making it so uniformal?

[KiloJules]

Totally agreeing with Mike aswell. "Too many toys!" is what Moe and I say for a long time now. Although I do understand why people like assets, I always have the feeling that another Infantry squad on my flank would be more helpful than the third tank...that is most likely not with us but somewhere else...mopping up some inf...that I would have loved to kill with my squad. Through team-/squadwork rather than HE-shells!

[Wicca]

Teamwork, smashing tanks down with communications since the first gulf war XD