FOB Ninja'ing

[Xander[nl]]

Hai thar,

not really a specific .97 issue, but it is something vital to gameplay and IMO something that should be looked into. It's more of a discussion than actual feedback but I didn't know where else to post it.

FOBs are a vital part of the game as we all know. Without FOBs, you lose. With tons of FOBs, you'll very likely win. However, keeping PR's squad focussed gameplay in mind, there is a problem. FOBs are too vulnurable to 'Ninjas'.

People who set out on their own, sneak in and quickly knife the FOB. One single person is hard to spot and will almost always succeed and if he doesn't he'll just try again and again untill he does.

This really ruins gameplay sometimes. I'd like to know if more people feel this way, and what their suggestions are. I could eventually make a suggestion in the appropiate forum, but I'd like to share and discuss some ideas and opinions here first.


Personnally, I'd like a system that is squadbased. A squad (for example 3-4 or more people) must overrun the Firebase. We could even include (if possible) some sort of capping to take place; the squad must remain and secure/defend the area for two minutes. This simulates how the enemy would have to break down or destroy the FOB and gives the opposite team time to react.

This also prevents FOBs getting destroyed by a long distance shot from a vehicle or a HAT. I think it's more realistic, and eventually more fun to have to secure the area to overrun a FOB instead of the ninja tactics that are employed right now.

This could also finally make FOBs on Insurgency actually usefull. Only rarely are full insurgent squads on the move able to effecively overrun a FOB. Usually it's just one or two guys that find it and ninja knife it. On most city maps this means Blufor cannot really use FOBs, unless they're well hidden or defended. A squad system could improve gameplay for this.

[PLODDITHANLEY]

I agree:

For a FOB to be destroyed it needs 4 people within a close radius. Remove knife and incendiary damage and have auto overrun and destroy with 4+ guys within 20m for one minute - something similar to the overrun unspawnable FOB logic in place at present.

Would encourage teamwork all round I can't see any negative apart from lowering 'recon' squad usefulness which is pretty low in most cases anyway.

Hard to 'nerf' HAT with out nerfing all other types of heavy arms

Anyway this smells like suggestion.

[MaSSive]

Lots of suggestion are being made lately on this matter. We had remove mortar damage, remove fob bleed system, make fob available to build by request to commander without crate, make it possible to build without crate in presence of APC / armored VC, now remove knifing radio, and remove incendiary damage, auto destroy when NN people present.

Huh that's a lot of suggestions, so why not add one. Make it hard to destroy as weapons cache on insurgency, remove knife radio and bleedout. Make it direct hit by mortar shell, tank or APC rounds destroyable ( sure CAS ), also incendiary as much needed as on cache, or C4. Also increase the number of players needed to disable spawn on it ( double the amount ) and make it possible to be built by request to commander without crate in first NN minutes of round only and then afterward rearming like rally or more?

[Mikemonster]

Agree that it's a problem.

[Swaggzor]

Something I've been thinking about for quite a while aswell.. I feel a lot for the idea that FOB's have to be overtaken, in a way that enemies need to be close(100m) to the fob for an X amount of time(disableing the spawning but not destroying the fob), and after the X amount of time the fob is held, the FOB wil automaticcaly destroy (when c4 is at hand, I find it realistic that this would instantly kill the FOB).. Problem however here is that when the FOBs team comes back to reclaim it, do they need to kill every enemy within a 100m radius, or just 1 dude etc etc....

[Rudd]

FOB ninjas aren't that good for gameplay I agree, but then again...undefended FOBs kinda deserve to die

[Bufl4x]

If armor is unable to kill the FOB from a distance, that will result in spawn camping.

[Xander[nl]]

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Rudd;1703675']but then again...undefended FOBs kinda deserve to die[/quote]

Surely, I'm not saying they should be invincible. What I am concerned with however is how the current system encourages lone wolfing and how effective this is. I'd say at least 50% of the FOBs that get destroyed are because of one guy stumbling into it. It'd be cooler and more realistic if that guy would have to call in a squad to neutralize it.

Current system makes the FOB simply spawnpoints instead of a forward base it tries to resemble. Such a base shouldn't be overrun by one single guy. Defending a FOB is a nice ideal, but with only 32 players it's really too much to ask to defend every single FOB.


You've got a point on spawncamping armor. Maybe vehicles should be able to kill them.
I'm just not sure about a HAT. Seems kinda stupid that one rocket can destroy an entire forward base. Maybe make decrease the damage so it takes multiple rockets to destroy.

[quote="PLODDITHANLEY""]
Anyway this smells like suggestion.[/quote]

I guess I will post it as a suggestion in the end, but I want to check out other people's points of view and suggestions first before coming up with a finalized plan. Hence why I posted it here, to start a discussion and work from the ground up.

[badmojo420]

I agree with Rudd, if you can't defend a FOB from 1 guy, it should go down. FFS you can't even be overrun by 1 enemy, so even if he kills you, you can just respawn and keep defending.

And I dislike anything that forces insurgents into groups. Why do you want insurgents to use blufor tactics? It's called insurgency for a reason.

[illidur]

yes, but you will also have a new problem... SPAWNKILLING. its worse than not having the fob there at all... people will spawn on it, get owned by tank's heat round instantly.

[Arc_Shielder]

FOB ninjas aren't that good for gameplay I agree, but then again...undefended FOBs kinda deserve to die

Is it just me that notice some indirect contradictions, if I can call them that?

How is it possible to defend a "hidden FOB" when you don't want to draw attention to it?
The mortar issue still persists as defensive assets are thin as paper.

[Stoickk]

There are a few problems here.

1. As mentioned, the indirect fire damage versus fob asset issue is extremely valid. It is currently a waste of time in most cases to build up a good defensive set (wire, foxholes, MG nests, etc.) because a few mortar rounds will start the whole setup bleeding. Where a few soldiers can hold down a fob like that, given proper asset layout, once it is bleeding, instead of defending, they are playing whack-a-mole trying to shovel everything back up before it "bleeds out" and disintegrates.

2. Lone wolves are indeed bad for gameplay in most cases, and should not be able to completely destroy a FOB on their own. That being said, the remark about "recon" squads is not accurate nor valid. When properly employed and utilized, e.g. providing reconnaissance to and supporting the actions of the team, rather than trying to be 1337 n1nj4z, are a valuable asset. In insurgency gameplay especially, smaller units and guerrilla tactics are without a doubt beneficial to the overall goals of the team, and Insurgent players should definitely not be forced into BluFor tactics only, as this will hurt tactical options as well as the overall flavor of Insurgency mode.

3. Vehicles, MBT's especially should definitely be able to destroy a FOB. Real world, they can level entire buildings. FOB's should be no problem. Also as previously mentioned, removing the ability for vehicles to destroy FOB's will encourage spawn camping/raping, which already is somewhat of an issue.

4. HAT versus FOB is a problem, but I do not know if there is any way to resolve this without nerfing HAT, which should definitely not happen. Possibly increasing FOB health could help, which would make it take more rounds for a vehicle to destroy. This is not entirely a bad thing, but could lead to the aforementioned FOB camping.

Some possible starting points (I hesitate to call them solutions due to feasibility/ease of implementation/gameplay issues) might be as follows:

1. When a radio is knifed, have it cause a specific amount of damage to the FOB, but not destroy the FOB. Keep the damage to the player intact. The reason this will help is that it will take multiple stabs to the radio to destroy a FOB, causing a player to bleed out in the absence of a medic. At a minimum, a player would need to be in a two man squad with a Squad Leader (1 patch on basic kit plus 3 on Squad Leader, or Combat Medic in squad) or Medic to keep from dying after ninja raping a fob. To take it one step farther, FOB health could be adjusted high enough so that enough stabs to kill the FOB will also kill the player. This will eliminate lone wolf FOB ninja elimination completely, as even with one patch, a lone player will bleed out long before he will be able to reach a friendly medic, and will be forced to traverse the front lines while bleeding and coughing. This will make him easier to track down.

2. Increase FOB health. This ties directly to point 1, and will also reduce HAT/LAT/RPG/Incendiary effectiveness against a FOB. If it takes four incendiary grenades to make a pile of ammunition and explosives explode, it seems counter-intuitive to me that only one will destroy a pile of sandbags and a radio.

3. Adjust FOB spawn attributes so that a FOB is not spawnable if FOB health is below 100%. By adding this measure, single players and small squads will still have an effect on gameplay, as saboteurs operating behind the front lines should. However, it will require much more time and effort on the part of these small squads to completely destroy a FOB, allowing the opposing team time to react. In contrast, the saboteurs can opt to disrupt supply lines by damaging the FOB and then move out to avoid retaliation. The opposing team may miss the raiders, but they retain their asset, which requires minimal repairs to become functional again.

4. Remove asset bleed. Assets do not have a circulatory system. While man-made objects will tend to deteriorate and break down over time, that mechanic is far too accelerated in PR. With all due respect to the Dev's, fixed asset bleed is detrimental to gameplay, and should be removed. This is a critical point to all of the above points, and will also address the mortar fire versus fixed assets problem which has been an ongoing debate in the community for quite some time.

As with anything that I post, I welcome any constructive criticism, ideas, etc. Feel free to take my ideas and run with them. My only goal here is to give back to the game and community which has provided me with countless hours of entertainment.

[Himalde]

Make it easier to build fobs, (add crate to trans truck and/or APC, and reduce the time it takes to construct it).
Making it impossible for one man to destroy a fob will just lead to camping of some sort or another. I can imagine someone C4ing the fob, waiting for spawners, and rearming from the fresh rifleman kits, repeat and profit. That is BAD gameplay.

[MaSSive]

I think you see it wrong. Its not lone wolfs that are doing this, its highly organized squads or experienced individuals who like to call themselves recon. Lone wolfs usually don't get very far alone on battlefield, and from experience I have in this game it is like this.

Just a heads up and a note not to flag this improperly.

[Stoickk]

Make it easier to build fobs, (add crate to trans truck and/or APC, and reduce the time it takes to construct it).
Making it impossible for one man to destroy a fob will just lead to camping of some sort or another. I can imagine someone C4ing the fob, waiting for spawners, and rearming from the fresh rifleman kits, repeat and profit. That is BAD gameplay.

And what is stopping an Insurgent Sapper from doing this very same thing right now with IED's? Absolutely nothing. In my system, any damage to the FOB will render it unspawnable. Therefore, one C4 strike will remove anyone's ability to spawn there. Next question.

I think you see it wrong. Its not lone wolfs that are doing this, its highly organized squads or experienced individuals who like to call themselves recon. Lone wolfs usually don't get very far alone on battlefield, and from experience I have in this game it is like this.

Just a heads up and a note not to flag this improperly.

A single player, operating independently of any other players, is commonly referred to as a Lone Wolf. The Lone Wolf play style, regardless of the individual player's level of experience, is not the type of play that is encouraged by PR, and is generally bad for game play in PR for a variety of reasons. These reasons include, but are not limited to, a lack of teamwork, kit theft (Lone Wolves are notorious for joining a squad, grabbing a kit, and leaving), and general CoD style game play, which is not what PR is designed around.

As I generally operate with one of the highly organized squads that moves behind the lines and eliminates FOB's, I understand first hand exactly what the changes that I am proposing would do, and how it would impact this style of game play. When operating in a proper squad with a Combat Medic, there will be no issue. If my squad wants to completely eliminate the FOB, it will take more incendiaries, or C4 (maybe even two shots of C4 to represent how tough a FOB should be), meaning more time spent in the area. If we want to merely disrupt supply and reinforcement lines, we move in, stab the radio a couple of times, the medic heals the soldier that sabotaged the communications equipment, and we move on.

What this will cut down on is single players ninjaing FOB's, as it stands in the current system, which is a problem.

[Mikemonster]

As a fairly experienced player it is easy to lonewolf on a lot of maps and cause disproportionate damage, not really ok in my book (but where do you draw the line?).

Stoickk great suggestions mate.

[Xander[nl]]

Whether or not small recon squads would still be able to damage FOBs is up to the devs; it depends if they want to focus on pure conventional warfare or still want to allow some sorts of 'speco ops gameplay'.

[xambone]

I am a FOB Ninja, I used to build as a squad leader and had twice as many points according to gametracker as the 2nd place guy. I did a great job and when I was in Muttrah City, my team always one. Just a fact.

Then I started grabbing Rope kit and my friend would take medic and we would dominate fobs and squads and rinse/repeat until opposing team got rolled because we destroyed their fobs.

I dont build any assets with FOB because it :

A. Gives it away
B. Mortar makes it pointless to put anything down
C. I usually have to put all other fobs up and that takes my squad away from assets.

Mortar is worse then FOB ninja, at least with FOB Ninja you can wait and hold the fob, with mortar you are dead especially if you are in AA/HMG/MORTAR/TOW...

If we get mortared on Mec i Grab Jeep and go to docks and take them out...blah blah blah

Basically I think Mortars are way more destructive to gameplay than My FOB Ninjas

I once Flew from(Just My Soldier no hueys) GAs Station to Mosque and lived. I am what some call, Omega Ninja. I trained Chuck Norris

[ComradeHX]

I think we should implement a system in which a player without another player on his team within 100m radius start filling some sort of "stress meter" that gets the player's screen blurry when past 75%/black if full. Only when the player is not in main/in capture zone of friendly flag, of course.

This will make lonewolfing just a stupid idea by forcing people to at least form a 2 person ft to accomplish anything AND is somewhat realistic(real people, not rambo/solid snake, should be more stressed when walking in a quiet place where every bush looked like there is an enemy hiding behind it). People whose teammates are all killed should have the time to disengage and RTB(I recall that 50% or more losses for a real life military unit = more than enough reason to gtfo).

[Mikemonster]

Interesting point comrade.. Good thinking.

The FOB system should also be modified in some way so that you can only build them behind friendly lines. It's not tickets that lose a round, it's a lack of FOBs. Ninjas amplify this.

To win any round just make a squad and tirelessly build secret fobs around each objective. All you need is a logi truck and another guy with you. This is worth more than a cohesive team based effort because it allows each flag to be rushed once you have the enemy on the back foot.

It's not just a ninja problem, the whole FOB system needs looking at.