Insurgents can't win

[=LK= A.H.]

I meant in the past 6 months

I'll give you a hint: this is not what "within the last year" means.

[illidur]

lol so many inept or non tactical INS players here.

this is map to map specific. but the main problem with INS is unknowns, the problem with defending an unknown is this:
1. you can give it away by doing ANYTHING in that area.
2. if you plan on actually defending it that means 50% of your team.
3. you now have half a team defending the whole game. (obviously not intended for that) unless a dev can correct me.
4. making fake caches is THE ONLY WAY to defeat good experienced insurgency players.
5. making fake caches is too difficult teamwork wise, asset wise and also limited by the amount of cache location spawns. the higher the number of possible cache locations the higher number of times you can make a fake cache. currently 200m away from last cache REALLY limits this.

i can argue the "stare at a door and wait on unknown" comment. there isn't always a door and you could give it away. On that note, what if i built a fob in the area? you gonna kill it or keep it overrun ? either way i'll know. game over man.

[badmojo420]

So much wasted time reading all these rants about how to properly play as INS. It seems everyone has an opinion on the subject. But, the original post is about blufor having too many tickets, can we discuss that a bit more?

Is it even possible in organized clan matches to win as INS when the Blufor are playing carefully? I feel like too many tickets were added to make up for dumb blufor players wasting tickets and losing the game, the increase in tickets gives a better chance for the few good players to make up the difference and still pull off a victory. Do others disagree? Has the added tickets made for closer matches?

I meant in the past 6 months, since all the "rage and complaint threads" popped up (all within release of 0.973), read it out next time.

If you care to read it out yourself, you specifically say 'in the last year'. It's in that section I quoted. But even if you want to say six months, that's exactly how long ago PR was patched.

[Cassius]

I see decently balanced results. If an incompefent blueforce wins, then opfor was also quite disorganized.

[ShockUnitBlack]

absolute twaddle, whenever I'm holding one of those things, I feel so bad for the pain I'm inflicting

the only time I feel impotent with an RPG is when a tank is in play

I love the RPG-7 so much. Anti-infantry + anti-vehicle in one awesome package.

The main issue with Insurgency is only one side ever has the initiative which can make it extremely boring for the team that doesn't (the Insurgents) if BLUFOR decides to not do anything.

[illidur]

So much wasted time reading all these rants about how to properly play as INS. It seems everyone has an opinion on the subject. But, the original post is about blufor having too many tickets, can we discuss that a bit more?

saying its about tickets is a view in its own. ticket variation could work but it would have to take into account the problems i posted. how do you take map variations and these problems into consideration to find a number!?

2 caches for 16 players each means that a sophisticated assault/defense of both teams could mean 16 vs 32. its a start i guess, but far from typical. this is just player to cache allocation, not even the tip of it and its still very broad... That is why i say a ticket change wont fix it. will need a big gameplay change or 2

[badmojo420]

Saying a ticket change could improve the outcome of insurgency matches, isn't an opinion on how to play as an insurgent.

Why would a ticket change have to take into account all of the problems you listed? Should those problems not be addressed on their own? It's not going to help if we keep shooting down possible changes to the INS game mode with other problems that exist. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[Brainlaag]

So much wasted time reading all these rants about how to properly play as INS. It seems everyone has an opinion on the subject. But, the original post is about blufor having too many tickets, can we discuss that a bit more?

Is it even possible in organized clan matches to win as INS when the Blufor are playing carefully? I feel like too many tickets were added to make up for dumb blufor players wasting tickets and losing the game, the increase in tickets gives a better chance for the few good players to make up the difference and still pull off a victory. Do others disagree? Has the added tickets made for closer matches?



If you care to read it out yourself, you specifically say 'in the last year'. It's in that section I quoted. But even if you want to say six months, that's exactly how long ago PR was patched.

Weren't the changes made prior to 0.92? (which is way more than a year) If not I apologize for the missinformation.

However as me and PFunk have stated in almost every single organized scrim, event, match, tournament (you name it), we took part, the Redfor team was superior to the Blufor team in any matter. It just comes to down how people fail to realize what it means to play properly. Someone said defending an unknown is to put full 16 people on it, that is absolutely wrong. One squad one the cache itself is more than enough to hold off any potential ninjas or sneak attacks and the rest of the team does the harassing out in the field with the available assets. Also one of the major factors here is that the Redfor team reacts way too slowly. Sometimes it takes up to 5+ minutes after report until people realize the cache is in serious danger. All the vehicles available for the insurgents are there for one reason, fast travel across the map, learn to use them instead to chase down your kill.

Albeit we are talking mainly about public games and therefor a weaker and more unexperienced playerbase. So some changes in the gamemode are desperately required. WebCole made a very nice suggestion a while ago featuring one single spawnable and known cache which "relocates" after a certain amount of time. This should focuses the Blufor's attention to that one single position and at the same time giving the attacking side a fair chance of getting an "easier" cache every time it relocates (I think the proposal for the time was around 30min). I won't get into further detail as there is a full thread about this very subject and I recommend everybody to read through it.

[Tarranauha200]

INS can win, people just cant use the right tactics.

[Jolly]

lol so many inept or non tactical INS players here.

this is map to map specific. but the main problem with INS is unknowns, the problem with defending an unknown is this:
1. you can give it away by doing ANYTHING in that area.
2. if you plan on actually defending it that means 50% of your team.
3. you now have half a team defending the whole game. (obviously not intended for that) unless a dev can correct me.
4. making fake caches is THE ONLY WAY to defeat good experienced insurgency players.
5. making fake caches is too difficult teamwork wise, asset wise and also limited by the amount of cache location spawns. the higher the number of possible cache locations the higher number of times you can make a fake cache. currently 200m away from last cache REALLY limits this.

i can argue the "stare at a door and wait on unknown" comment. there isn't always a door and you could give it away. On that note, what if i built a fob in the area? you gonna kill it or keep it overrun ? either way i'll know. game over man.

You've got the point, but map like karbala won't be easy.
Soldiers perfer to find unknow rather than engage insurgents.(At least in Chinese server it is so.)
Even if you made one fake cache, and attracted enough soldiers and heavy assets.
There are still guys searching for unknown, you might lost the battle when they find all 7 caches.
Your tactic is useful only when one or none cache is known.
Conserve lives is vital for insurgents for your tactic. Once 2 caches are known, it's extremely hard to defence. Because you don't have enough men to defend the '3rd' cache.
Moving your men is not easy and takes time.

I agree with your opinion basicly, very useful.
But may not work in some cases.

[Bringerof_D]

do not mine the roads, use them. mine the fields around the caches. watch the roads with remote operated IEDs and RPGs.

[badmojo420]

Weren't the changes made prior to 0.92? (which is way more than a year) If not I apologize for the missinformation.

You're correct about the date, I was looking at the wrong patch. My apologies.

But I still feel like you guys aren't addressing the unbalance in the game mode. If the Opfor team need to play a perfect game to stand a chance of winning,(which most pubbers can't handle) why aren't we holding the blufor team to those same standards?

Or do you guys disagree and think the blufor are just as difficult to win as the opfor?

[Brainlaag]

You're correct about the date, I was looking at the wrong patch. My apologies.

But I still feel like you guys aren't addressing the unbalance in the game mode. If the Opfor team need to play a perfect game to stand a chance of winning,(which most pubbers can't handle) why aren't we holding the blufor team to those same standards?

Or do you guys disagree and think the blufor are just as difficult to win as the opfor?

I knew it, trying to make me look bad you bloody derp...just kidding

Its really hard to say, because the INS team requires more coordination than good players, while good players on a Blufor team can usually win the round "by themselves". In a organized environment, Blufor is clearly inferior, on public games and on most of the popular maps, Redfor is clearly the weak link. Don't think there is a proper way to fix this via game changes and tweaks to the current system.

We either have to overhaul the whole INS gamemode, or brainwash the players and teach them how to play properly and on the highest standards. Both of these task are incredibly hard to fulfill, therefor we are currently stuck .

[illidur]

However as me and PFunk have stated in almost every single organized scrim, event, match, tournament (you name it), we took part, the Redfor team was superior to the Blufor team in any matter. It just comes to down how people fail to realize what it means to play properly. Someone said defending an unknown is to put full 16 people on it, that is absolutely wrong. One squad one the cache itself is more than enough to hold off any potential ninjas or sneak attacks and the rest of the team does the harassing out in the field with the available assets.

i dont think you understand what "defending" an unknown really means. it means that the firebase i built in that area (because i KNOW a cache could be there) will either be overrun or you destroy it because of that squad. so your unknown ISN'T actually an unknown. i'd be bringing me with c4, my squad, my asset friends (tank, kiowa, apc) and any others that listened when i spammed teamchat. this is without a commander because wow gg with one.

even if i was just romping around in a squad with assets, you think that 1 squad vs 1 squad is good odds for your poor cache? if we fail, we'll be back. and now your unknown is probably overrun without any hideouts because you think you are hidden. or if you built one its sighted and known and now im not initially attacking with 1 squad. its just a fail strategy unless you put half and half meaning you still have bad odds.. but better than 6 vs ?

badmojo idk what you read but i was saying tickets isn't the solution.

[Brainlaag]

And while you try to move onto the cache with your fancy assets and superior power, you have almost half of the INS team shooting at you and destroying the assets. As said, one squad on the cache itself its a good deal, the rest in a perimeter around the cache, to make sure no Blufor units can make it into the vicinity of the cache in a coordinate matter and as such easily dealt with and ultimately wipped out.

A good triangle of hideouts around the cache ensures a constant stream of reinforcement and yet again, public gamers fail even at this very simple task, hideout placement. The most common thing you see, is a hideout right on the cache and another somewhere out in the field.

You underestimate a good coordinate INS team.

[stealth420]

It sad really, all these negative threads

"Insurgents cant win"'


You guys need to be more positive about life


All this negativity is gonna hold you down

[illidur]

It sad really, all these negative threads

"Insurgents cant win"'


You guys need to be more positive about life


All this negativity is gonna hold you down

this isn't a negative thread, this is a real thread of about the outcome of insurgency atm. please dont troll it.

INS is my favorite game mode.

[talkinBEERmug]

I have read the all the posts and some people have some good points, and I think I need to rename the topic to "Insurgents cant win on some maps", I came up with that topic "Insurgents cant win" after a bad Operation Marlin INS game, but after thinking about it Insurgents have some maps that are just torture on Bluefor.

Yes at first I wanted the ticket count for the bluefor reduced, but now I think the only way ticket count reduced will help is if its on a map for map basis.

Also after playing some really hard INS games on bluefor I almost feel like bluefor cant win on some maps, which leads me back to believe the set cache locations are so all over the place. Example Ramiel, some of the caches that spawn far north are hell even to get to, let alone destroying, but then a cache will spawn out by the docks or on the front of the city that are hard to defend. I really think the set cache locations need to be looked at from both sides Bluefor, and Insurgent and try make new set cache locations equally challenging for both sides.

[PFunk]

I have read the all the posts and some people have some good points, and I think I need to rename the topic to "Insurgents cant win on some maps", I came up with that topic "Insurgents cant win" after a bad Operation Marlin INS game, but after thinking about it Insurgents have some maps that are just torture on Bluefor.

Thats probably why most people reacted so strongly against your inital post. Without a doubt INS have it hard on some maps. But its just as often that we see the same thing for BLUFOR, the only difference is that often the maps that are preferred as a means to attract seeders are the popular ones and those tend to be BLUFOR friendly since... well you shouldn't need any help figuring that one out.

Example Ramiel, some of the caches that spawn far north hell even to get to, let alone destroying, but then a cache will spawn out by the docks or on the front of the city that are hard to defend.

Well see this is when organized PR really shows its salt. Standard tactics in the PRT for BLUFOR were to deliberately aim to acquire enough intel to reveal 2 active caches so that the insurgent team would have to split their defenses between the two since we could attack either one. On top of that you'd 'game' certain aspects of the system. For one if you found out that one cache was in a very bad spot not only would you just simply NOT attack it, something pubbies generally won't do without a Commander to tell them not to, but you'd actually use the minimum radius that caches have to spawn apart to your advantage here. With a cache deep inside a city like Ramiel or Karbala you could leave one there and know that you're far more likely to have a cache spawn away from the city centre where you'll have a much easier time assaulting it.

This is the kind of complex strategy that pubby teams fail at and not just because they're brain dead but also because the value of a commander is so marginalized in this community that you won't see him show up to sort out some of the balance issues on some maps, namely using a broader macro understanding of a map's dynamics to guide the efforts of a team not just towards a productive strategy but also to keep them from wasting tickets. This of course doesn't solve the balance problems for insurgent teams on their painful maps.

[illidur]

And while you try to move onto the cache with your fancy assets and superior power, you have almost half of the INS team shooting at you and destroying the assets. As said, one squad on the cache itself its a good deal, the rest in a perimeter around the cache, to make sure no Blufor units can make it into the vicinity of the cache in a coordinate matter and as such easily dealt with and ultimately wipped out.

A good triangle of hideouts around the cache ensures a constant stream of reinforcement and yet again, public gamers fail even at this very simple task, hideout placement. The most common thing you see, is a hideout right on the cache and another somewhere out in the field.

you can't have 6 on unknown and rest around it if there is another cache. you pretty much say 16 defending then. you really have no unknown at all at that point.

You underestimate a good coordinate INS team.

thats what it would require to win in that situation. the point is that doesn't usually happen. and if theres only 1 good squad on blufor it beats having only 1 good squad on opfor.