Insurgents can't win

[illidur]

im interested in what the good players do with that 1/4'th problem. Mr. New Player doesn't effect the gameplay as much as Mr. c4 ninja in this case. agree?

i like the idea of intel actually doing something like spawning the unknown onto the map. but that is up to the devs to decide what direction this gamemode takes... or how much effort to put into it.

insurgency is supposed to be complicated, thats why i like it most. it has an almost sandbox feel to it when you are new. but after a while you realize its limitations... and its flaws. this complicated gameplay probably makes it hard for proper feedback/suggestions. but i believe that intel should be a bigger part of the game. same with unknowns and civis.

[SGT.Ice]

And could you tell me why didn't we face such massive problems in the past? As said many many times before, those major changes to the Insurgency gamemode were made prior to 0.9, yet people started complaining in the past 6 months (more or less, as rant threads always existed but never in this magnitude).

What else could be the reason but the playerbase when no gamechanges were adapted and included recently.

Hmm. Man speaks truth.

what the above post has anything to do with the topic?

Has to do with why PR is awesome and telling some guy that went off topic why he's wrong.

I'd argue it being the most organized, i've seen better but that was years ago. As for recently it's pretty good.

If we don't try and say 'this is BS, we can do better' then we'll never get anywhere. If people just insist I'm a jerk cause I'm calling out the bad parts of our community then they're not interested in making things better. I don't know what they're doing to help, I just know they're wrong cause... well I am a bit arrogant and think I'm right.

I feel like we were seperated at birth sometimes.

So just because someone sucks at flying, you have to simplify it, because someone can't hit shit and doesn't know how to use a weapon, remove the recoil+deviation, because someone has the strong urge to derp around, have a gamemode dumbed down. Absolutely NOT! I'm fine with changes and an overhaul but I'm sick of dumbing down an already easy game.

Fact is, it works, it has been showed often, it's not some kind of impossibility to overcome. A bit of adaptation and deliberation should do the trick, excoriate the gamemode for the player's inability to master it, is nothing but a lame excuse.

Ah, people finally see thing's from my perspective. Excellent.

im interested in what the good players do with that 1/4'th problem. Mr. New Player doesn't effect the gameplay as much as Mr. c4 ninja in this case. agree?

i like the idea of intel actually doing something like spawning the unknown onto the map. but that is up to the devs to decide what direction this gamemode takes... or how much effort to put into it.

insurgency is supposed to be complicated, thats why i like it most. it has an almost sandbox feel to it when you are new. but after a while you realize its limitations... and its flaws. this complicated gameplay probably makes it hard for proper feedback/suggestions. but i believe that intel should be a bigger part of the game. same with unknowns and civis.

You just gave me an idea.

[Brainlaag]

does anyone here play card games. the definition of a good card game like poker as oposed to go fish! or shithead is that it hasnt got easily understood exploits! ok both sides although not created equal within the context of the game have an equal footing. people state insurgency teamwork in defence of its good. i state the fact that if u play it any amount of time ull understand all the ACES blufor holds and play them do you get it its not the player base !!!!!!!!!!!!

And you seem not to understand that in the PRT, the best PR had to offer, PR the way is meant to be played, showed how unbalanced the gamemode is towards Redfor.

[=-=kittykiller]

Hmm. Man speaks truth.




Has to do with why PR is awesome and telling some guy that went off topic why he's wrong.

I'd argue it being the most organized, i've seen better but that was years ago. As for recently it's pretty good.




I feel like we were seperated at birth sometimes.




Ah, people finally see thing's from my perspective. Excellent.

listen to me the difference between a respected card game and a kids one is that in poker both sides are equal within the rules. With **** card games or KIDS games its a case of some easily understood exploit being the decider of each match get it! in insurgency
the blufor players if they arnt dumb as shut know that a cache spawns 200m away from last cache and where do YOU UNDERSTAND.You quote teamwork and cite PRTA as the example id say these people rarely play ins, as its so SNAFU please try to get the picture in PR terms ins is Sh1thead whereas AAS is poker now do u get it

please for the love of god introduce capping of caches befroe destroy or whatever u devs have in ure wisdom decided soon.

[Brainlaag]

listen to me the difference between a respected card game and a kids one is that in poker both sides are equal within the rules. With **** card games or KIDS games its a case of some easily understood exploit being the decider of each match get it! in insurgency
the blufor players if they arnt dumb as shut know that a cache spawns 200m away from last cache and where do YOU UNDERSTAND.You quote teamwork and cite PRTA as the example id say these people rarely play ins, as its so SNAFU please try to get the picture in PR terms ins is Sh1thead whereas AAS is poker now do u get it

please for the love of god introduce capping of caches befroe destroy or whatever u devs have in ure wisdom decided soon.

It's not PRTA

PRTA = Project Reality Teamwork Alliance, a community of dedicated players striving for the best of PR.
PRT = Project Reality Tournament, a tournament started by the DEV team to provide the best PR experience and how they believed it should be played.

Stating that those, who have spent hours over hours for weeks, over many many months through out years can't play Insurgency or simply don't understand how this game works is just insulting. How dare you putting your assumption and personal thoughts over straight out facts. We've tried to master the game and even saw it as some kind of job, we really put effort into this whole thing and took it as a duty or commitment.

[=-=kittykiller]

truth is mastering a simple game thats flawed is simple. creates leaders and a player base working on exploits. we need civis to be standardized and the intel system to be "player acountable" and simpPRT or hokey PRTA .

dontget personal
donget mad
ins is so easily exploited thats been the big thing devs been working on since it began
u master a ins well done bro
>plz insert tango and cash video

[Brainlaag]

Then why do so many suck at it if it's that easy to master, why do people get issues with deviation when it's a simple timer, why do people fail at understanding even the simplest tactics. Don't underestimate human stupidity.

[CommunistComma]

Roger that, over.
Italian women have some of the smallest breasts in the world.



....



over.

[=-=kittykiller]

brainlagg this >>Then why do so many suck at it if it's that easy to master, why do people get issues with deviation when it's a simple timer, why do people fail at understanding even the simplest tactics. Don't underestimate human stupidity.

is the kind of smug superior attitude that can ruin any kind of discussion on #PR's limits
a certain set of people view PR as theirs as they dedicate time to it and its the kinda small community u can infiltrate rather easily and whats more it talks to you as well (via forums i hope lolz)

INS has majAA faults accept it bro
most players dont have trouble using deviation its pretty simple u wait 2 secs, bam done 90% of ppl get it.

[Brainlaag]

brainlagg this >>Then why do so many suck at it if it's that easy to master, why do people get issues with deviation when it's a simple timer, why do people fail at understanding even the simplest tactics. Don't underestimate human stupidity.

is the kind of smug superior attitude that can ruin any kind of discussion on #PR's limits
a certain set of people view PR as theirs as they dedicate time to it and its the kinda small community u can infiltrate rather easily and whats more it talks to you as well (via forums i hope lolz)

INS has majAA faults accept it bro
most players dont have trouble using deviation its pretty simple u wait 2 secs, bam done 90% of ppl get it.

I'm not saying Insurgency is flawless, it has it's problems, even major ones that need to be ironed out but at end of the day, its still up to the players if they fail or succeed.

And no, people don't get deviation, thats why so many threads about it exist (go 2 section down into the forum). Compared to the "old" PR community, this one is absolutely green and unexperienced. Not saying that all are idiots but there are way to many new guys who are NOT willing to learn and rather complain about faulty game mechanics.

And I'm not being smugish, it's just I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

[Murphy]

there are way to many new guys who are NOT willing to learn and rather complain about faulty game mechanics

This is the single most aggravating issue, it's as if the newer players somehow believe they are entitled to an easier time then those of us who have been around for many years. If you have problems with a certain aspect and your knee jerk reaction is to jump on these forums and start a topic about how X and Y are broken and need to be fixed, don't be surprised when people like brain and I get somewhat worked up about your perceived laziness. If some posters around here spent more time in-game actually becoming accustomed to the standards maybe there would be a heightened skill level for the entire community in general.

[illidur]

im not sure, but are you guys implying those saying real issues are noobs? im pretty sure we can all agree that if you suck you are gonna lose either way against a team thats good. the gamemode is not THAT messed up. but it does have some problems.

i have some new reasons perhaps on why some would complain here. perhaps they are biased to insurgents and like to play them more? so they like the opfor to win perhaps?

but realistically if you had to choose which side was easier to win on i guess i would have to choose blufor. IT SUCKS WAY TOO MUCH when the blufor dont attack the known. or they get stomped making the round last 2 hrs while mortaring the known marker for nothing. that is way more annoying than them just rampaging your caches (atleast you get action). but that could be personal preference... ive just stated the problems that i dislike.

[thedarkhorse]

I think insurg should be tweaked so there are never 2 unknowns. The game starts with either 1 known & 1 unknown or the game starts with just 1 unknown. In the second scenario as soon as the 1 unknown becomes known the other unknown then spawns. If the known goes down no new(unknown) cache spawns until the remaining unknown becomes known.

[Arnoldio]

Yes people cannot play insurgency, or even PR as a whole for shit. But given 100% players are good, insurgency could be better. It has some faults, primarily unknowns, but all in all, its players who cant do stuff.

[SGT.Ice]

listen to me the difference between a respected card game and a kids one is that in poker both sides are equal within the rules. With **** card games or KIDS games its a case of some easily understood exploit being the decider of each match get it! in insurgency
the blufor players if they arnt dumb as shut know that a cache spawns 200m away from last cache and where do YOU UNDERSTAND.You quote teamwork and cite PRTA as the example id say these people rarely play ins, as its so SNAFU please try to get the picture in PR terms ins is Sh1thead whereas AAS is poker now do u get it

please for the love of god introduce capping of caches befroe destroy or whatever u devs have in ure wisdom decided soon.

You don't understand the gamemode I can see that already. Caches can spawn across the map. Bam. Insurgents are easy to win as if played right. Bam.

Poker is not fair it's all about luck, I use to play poker religiously and 2 of my relatives were dealers. Your arguement is invalid.

This is the single most aggravating issue, it's as if the newer players somehow believe they are entitled to an easier time then those of us who have been around for many years. If you have problems with a certain aspect and your knee jerk reaction is to jump on these forums and start a topic about how X and Y are broken and need to be fixed, don't be surprised when people like brain and I get somewhat worked up about your perceived laziness. If some posters around here spent more time in-game actually becoming accustomed to the standards maybe there would be a heightened skill level for the entire community in general.

Even those of us who have been doing it for half a decade now?

[Murphy]

If you still can't adapt and overcome after that much experience you may have to go back to basics and work from there. No need for excuses or metaphors, after years of playing if you still cannot come to terms with the game mechanics it might be time to reconsider how you pass your time.

If INS was such a bad game mode how are there servers that run pretty much only INS maps and are very popular and widely considered good communities. If the mode were as broken as this thread paints it to be would everyone not be in accordance with the need to remove it?

I do agree there are glaring faults with how things pan out in-game, but overall it is still a decently satisfying game mode and as far as other games go it is fairly original. There are threads suggesting solutions, this feels more like griping from players who have played one to many games where the unknowns are the only caches destroyed. We have all had these rounds, and been on both sides of the conflict not everyone has come here posting how unfair it appears to be at times.

[badmojo420]

If INS was such a bad game mode how are there servers that run pretty much only INS maps and are very popular and widely considered good communities. If the mode were as broken as this thread paints it to be would everyone not be in accordance with the need to remove it?

I think the problem is people still love the game mode and have lots of fun playing it, but they are constantly being disappointed by the games outcome at the end of the 3hr round.

I think it all boils down to the fact that a few good blufor players can run a match, while a few good opfor players can only watch as a match is slowly lost.

It is indeed a player problem, but it needs fixing on the code side, because players are hardcoded, and these are PUBLIC games.

[Truism]

Obligatory post by me ripping on INSY on the grounds that capabilities are overmatched instead of properly asymmetrical.

Edit: And again pointing out that INS could win every game by not spawning, which signals something pretty seriously wrong with a game mode (protip: the problem isn't that they should be forced to spawn, it's that the only viable models for INS winning involve doing things that you can most effectively do by not even being on the map).

[Web_cole]

Yes, Insurgency is flawed. Deeply flawed, in my eyes. Yes, it is also unique and different and interesting enough that even people like me, who think its flawed, can play it and have "fun".

Brain and kitty I only skimmed your discussion, but I feel like whats missing from is it is the recognition that player behavior and game mechanics are not two separate entities that exist in completely different spaces and never the twain shall meet. Players take their cues from the dynamics of the game.

If it seems that the level of the playerbase has degraded, I can only assume that in the last year or so more and more of the experienced players have left or play less (like me) and therefore it seems like there are more new guys about, when there probably aren't.

And finally, its entirely possible for something to be "balanced" for public play, but not for the top level of play, in this case the PRT. One example would be Starcraft 2, where whats balanced "on the ladder" (public) needn't be the case at the pro level. When it comes to INS its actually a little more weirdly skewed in my eyes, where Blufor has the advantage in public play, but Ins in organized play.

[Navo]

Insurgency mode actually works really well on Korengal Valley, and more or less on Lashkar Valley, but the common consensus is that those maps are boring. That says something.

Talking about Korengal: The CROW humvees should be removed.