For the millionth time... (Deviation)

[Arnoldio]

There is absolutely no damn problem with deviation. Yes it may screw you over in CQB when someone "ohmyfuckinggod" appears in your face. That happens in real life too.

To counder that, lately, devs have implemented reverse deviation, wich means you can move and the deviation goes up at the same rate it goes down. What does this tell you? It tells you you can wait behind the corner for 4 seconds and then move around it, wich will take you a second or so, and your aim is almost perfect and that my dear friend is sufficient for CQB.

Now shut the hell up and learn to play instead of bitching about this reasonably good system.

[PoisonBill]

Okay, there's something which you can't implement in PR or any bf2 mod, that is weapon sway.

Just played a bit of red orchestra 2 today, for the first time. This game has allot of weapon sway, and when the sway halters you get your indicator to fire.

An indicator would only be a compliment for deviation and it would show the amount of (IRL noticeable) sway (deviation) which exists. Would it not?

@arnoldio, who are you referring to?

[Arnoldio]

@arnoldio, who are you referring to?

To whom it may concern.

There was a POC visual indicator, wich would be kinda welcome but wasnt implemented, but counting to five isnt so hard aswell.

[AquaticPenguin]

Okay, there's something which you can't implement in PR or any bf2 mod, that is weapon sway.

Visual weapon sway akin to FH2 is possible, and it's something I would like to see in a fully polished PR. It doesn't effect the bullets path since it's just done in animation, but it has the same effect since the player doesn't know where the centre of the screen is and hence fire accuractely. IIRC it also has the disadvantage that it wouldn't be affected by deviation but I still reckon it could work as the 'base' deviation.

Another thing I'd quite like to see is the more realistic ballistics, because that in itself adds a slight unpredictability to where the shot will land, and I don't reckon we'd suffer for not having tracers as a consequence. (I believe that was the trade-off)

Overall I'm an advocate of reducing peak deviation ever so slightly, but maintaining the time it takes to reduce to a minimum, so there would be a bit less wild spray at CQC but long range combat would be unaffected. I think it would also improve the situation with suppression... Basic suppression could be achieved immediately and would actually have some effect, giving players greater chance to move to cover, so more organised ambushes and tactical thinking may be employed. Generally, with minute faked weapon sway and ballistics I think it would add a lot of polish and feel to the infantry combat.

An indicator would only be a compliment for deviation and it would show the amount of (IRL noticeable) sway (deviation) which exists. Would it not?

While I think an indicator is a good idea and would probably alleviate some fuss from players, I don't think it would stop anyone's complaints about the deviation system, and may reinforce the assumption that if you are settled, then you should be able to kill what's in your sights before it can run to cover. I think people should need to work together to pull off ambushes and overwhelm the enemy rather than focus on sharpshooting.

[Dev1200]

Not enough recoil, too much deviation in CQB ranges.

Not enough per shot deviation with LMG.

Movement deviation is fine, after firing/per shot deviation needs to be reduced and substituted with recoil.

[Arnoldio]

LMG acts as an assault rifle undeployed, so it should have same per shot deviation as any other rifle. For deployed stance, less spread is the point.

[Blizzard]

I dont think that RBS/Deviation is the correct aproach for this but an indicator would make it a lot better.

[PlaynCool]

I don't know why visual indicator of deviation was never implemented.I mean as a soldier you should really know when you are firing with the most accuracy.Also i would like to see thoose 2 boxes that most of HAT kits have on the russian HAT center where the weapon is zeroed. I cant seem to figure how to use that scope, i know you have to wait for deviation, and have to compensate for rocket drop but the two brakets coming togheter would really help(where the rocket comes from).I really hope that v1.0 deviation will be better(can't really tell from Falklands since most weapons have iron sights.

[Predator.v2]

I really hope that v1.0 deviation will be better(can't really tell from Falklands since most weapons have iron sights.

It will. We are working to change it in a way, that weapon behaviour feels less random and super inaccurate in CQB (after moving for a few seconds), but that rifles don't get super accurate laser rifles. Rifles (and most other weapons) should feel more reliable, but still have a realistic accuracy behaviour.

Some tipps to improve your assault rifle handling (in 0.973):

-After moving you have to wait 5-6 seconds until you reach maximum accuracy.
-Wait about 1-1.3 seconds between single shots for maximum accuracy.
-Dont go prone in CQB, unless you have at least 4 seconds to regain any accuracy at all (huge prone deviation penalty).
-After turning (mouse movement) you only have to wait around 0.5-0.6 seconds to regain full accuracy
-Always try to fire at least crouching, it is way more accurate than standing and it receives no penalty like going prone (standing devmodifier x1.5, crouching devmodifier 1, prone devmodifier 0.9)

These numbers are simply about maximum accuracy (or minimum deviation). You can even shoot weapons more or less accurate after waiting half of the mentioned times, as the deviation reduces linear from a maximum deviation value (for each category [movement, turning, firing, prone/jump]) until an overall minimum deviation value (zoom, stance modifiers are getting calculated in the end).

Good luck in PR!
Pred

[samogon100500]

Needed aim indicator.Curently see this only on HAT.

[MikeJT]

Two parallel lines will never meet, except for in PR.

Whilst holding my gun roughly parallel to the ground, or even slightly upwards from parallel, my bullets still manage to hit the ground a few meters infront of me.

This is unrealistic.

I haven't fired a real gun. Never had reason to.

I have played paintball though, and when sprinting around the field, and stopping to take shots at someone, I've never found my paintballs hitting the ground 5 m infront of me when I was intending to to shoot someone 20 m away from me. Even when moving whilst shooting, I don't find myself accidently aiming at the ground 5 m away from me.

Last night whilst playing on Fools Road, I saw a guy running through trees and moved to cut him off as he came over a hill top. He came over the hill sooner than I expected, so I didn't have time to bring up my sights, and he was about 5 m infront of me so I just went full-auto, hip-firing. Nothing connected. Literally nothing. No dust hit marks came off him. Somehow, he managed to run straight through a stream of bullets coming out of my gun.

I don't care how puffed out you are. Grab a broom stick. Sprint as hard as you can for as long as you can, then stop and hold that broom stick as steadily as you possibly can. Now tell me if that broomstick was a gun, you would miss a man standing 5 m away from you. If you do tell me that, you're either a liar or a retard.

[Predator.v2]

Deviation is a necessary need due to the limitations of the Battlefield 2 engine.

We lack a proper animation system (arma2, bf3), we neither have a proper stamina/wounded system, which effects aiming (arma 2) nor a realistic weaponssway (arma 2).

As for animations. If you lie down in BF2 you are instantly down on the ground and ready to fire. A real soldier would need some seconds to get down (recovering from a possible fall) and bring up his weapon again. And while this affects the possibility to fire a weapon accuracy, it leaves you very vulnerable for a few seconds (thats why no real soldier would first lie down if an enemy would come around a near corner). To "simulate" this prone animation, PR got a huge deviation penalty for lieing down (for the first seconds), which leaves the crouching or standing soldier a huge advantage in CQB. This effect wears off with increasing distances, where the small hit area and the worse standing/crouch accuracy comes into effect.

There are also penalties/deviations (but way smaller than jumping/prone dev) for firing/turning (weapon controlling) and movement (animation/stamina simulation).

I think the two points you were complaining about in particular where movement deviation and hipfire.

Movement deviation tries to simulate a stamina system where you have to steady after long walking/running plus the time it would need to sight in your weapon (which goes almost instantly in pr but not in r/l). Unfortunately the BF2 deviation system only got one deviation number for the whole "movement" section, so someone decided to set this number to a value of "3?" (max speed dev) and give it a 5-6 seconds settletime. These 5-6 seconds are trying to simulation the time you need to recover from full sprint or long time faster walking.
However after several years of PR it got clear, that the whole movement deviation is a bit too punishing and creates a unpleasant "random" feeling.

Thats why PR1.0 gonna have a tweaked deviation system (we already had a first closed testing beta, check the events), which should create a less "sub human/soldier"/random feeling with PR rifles, but doesn't make them unrealistic accurate (as in BF2 Vanilla).

About hipfiring, as a result of the tweaked deviation system hipfiring may receive some "passive" influencings, but there are no plans at all to make hipfiring more accurate. Simply sight in your weapon unless you literally colide with the enemy.

[ElshanF]

A USMC pilot on Muttrah once headshot me while walking and aiming at 75m 1 shot. Deviation has it's annoying moments. I prefer the falklands deviation. Eve though you get killed easier it's realistic. It depends on your skill.

[MikeJT]

So tonight I watched a guy gun down 3 of my team-mates with my sights set on his chest for about 5 seconds waiting for deviation to reduce. I fired and... missed.

I had full stamina. I was unsuppressed. I was only walking when he first opened fire. I went to crouched position and waited long enough for him to gun down 3 guys. I used semi-auto. The range was short - only about 40 m. My sights were dead center on his chest.

He then gunned me down.

Adding insult to injury, the shot landed not just a few cm off mark, or a near miss, but a few feet to his left, on the ground.

Please tell me again how this is realistic?

Are you telling me that in REALITY, a single person, sitting in a corner, has time to gun down 3 people before a person standing 40 m away from him can possibly shoot him accurately?

[ComradeHX]

Are you telling me that in REALITY, a single person, sitting in a corner, has time to gun down 3 people before a person standing 40 m away from him can possibly shoot him accurately?

In reality it happens as long as those 4 people were too busy picking their noses.

Automatic weapons.

[Predator.v2]

After 5-6 seconds (server fps dependant) your deviation always reaches its minimum (unless you keep doing fancy stuff), allowing to precisely hit targets several hundreds of meters away on single shot. Keep following in mind, your firing, turning and movement deviation settle seperately.

So if you start shooting, it won't increase your 5-6 seconds movement deviation settletime. I'd adwise you, to try following tactic next time. IF you see an enemy in front of you, you don't want a 100% precise firstshot and you know your movement deviation is at its maximum, crouch and fire very fast (I'd adwise singlefire on higher distances) for about 2-3 seconds. With any luck you should suppress your enemy that way. Now you start firing controlled single shots (maximum one every second, distance dependant), so your firing deviation drops and reaches a minimum when your movement deviation has settled too. Thats only one of several ways to compensate the bf2/pr deviation system.

It is not like i am defending the current deviation system, as i am working on the deviation changes myself, but after years of playing PR and with the knowledge of all the numbers in my head, i have almost no problems with the current deviation system. It has its flaws, but if you know about them, you can easily adept.

If you are still not pleased, please try out PR:Falklands, as it has a new set of deviation integrated and leave us some (needed) constructive feedback in the "PR:F Deviation Feedback Thread". This would actually help us improving the pr deviation.