[R-DEV]dbzao's Public Gameplay Test #3

[Kain888]

But a whole squad respawning on a FB you are attacking and killing you isn't arcadeish at alll? Before you argue that if you get close the FB gets overrun, rallies get overrun by a single guy within 100m for a split second, FBs take more numbers to overrun. Anytime the fight gets anywhere near my rally it goes down, much easier than any FB I have ever placed.

I've never said it's not gamey to respawn at FOB, but FOB as an idea is simply a lot better. It requires logistic, teamwork, some coordination and time to build it. It's harder to hide in ridiculous spots as well. It's harder to sneak out with FOB, choppers are visible, loud, trucks have harder times to get to the places and are easy to shot down. Teamwork here is massive factor for FOB, unlike RP, where it's "each squad on its own".

Also FOBs usually fit into some kind of frontline (obviously not always), when RP can be placed at back of enemy and be a spawn point placed basically everywhere.

Using people respawning near the firefight and engageing the same people as last life as an arguement is like saying we should have to spawn at main every death because we won't give the enemy a long enough time to get ready for the next fight. Fights can be won multiple ways, tactics, skill, all that stuff, or just pure numbers. Its all about risk and reward, and how many bodies you are willing to throw at the enemy to kill them, it's not the rally's fault you can respawn and rush the wounded enemies again. I'm not saying overwhelming the enemy with numbers is a good or bad thing, it is a viable tactic, that on the plus side can gain ground, and push a better opponent out of their location, but it also hurts your tickets more than theirs. You can do that with a rally or FB, so don't hate on the rallues just because they don't require taking time getting logistics and speed up a game that already takes forever.

I have never noticed PR for me is taking forever. It's maybe matter of opinion here. And no, saying that fast and easy respawn near the lost firefight is far in similarity to the spawn at main after each death argument. It differs in scale. And it's opposite to what you said IT IS RP fault that you can rush. Of course you do that with FOB, but FOB has way greater limitations than RP and IS easier to spot, can't be hidden in single bush, etc.

The point is rushing is often viable tactics as you said, we agree here. And that's the problem. In PR I prefer to see tactics and gameplay based on suppression, covering, flanking (maybe less in case of INS scenarios). Fear of death supports realistic tactics because its irl main factor of motivation for such behavior.

[ChallengerCC]

Fear of death supports realistic tactics because its irl main factor of motivation for such behavior.

Thats the point !

[Himalde]

Put a spawnlimit om each rally to 1 x or 2x people in squad. Allowing 2 or 3 waves of attack, before it's useless.

[Quentin]

I also think, that the new rally-system would be a step closer to other arcade FPS. Furthermore it's not reallistic to spawn in close range of the actual combat (besides the fact, that spawning isn't reallistic at all ). Like other user said, the value of live an of logistical transports would be decreased and i thought, this is one of the major apsects of the game and the difference between normal BF/COD and PR.

[CanuckCommander]

Hey guys,

I have an idea that will solve the problem of identifying friend/foe if the enemy can pick up friendly kits with friendly kit geometry, and if name tags are removed. In World War II, during Operation Overlord, Allied paratroopers would use CLICKERS to identify each other after being dropped into enemy territory at night. If you've seen the movie The Longest Day, you'll know what I'm talking about. The concept is simple, one person would issue a CHALLENGE sound (say 1 click) and the other person would have to RESPOND correctly (say 2 clicks).

http://www.wwiidogtags.com/wwii-notched-dog-tags/wwii-paratrooper-cricket/

Utilizing this concept, we can implement the same idea with PR with the use of the Command Rose. The only requirement is that the player must have ALL ENGLISH VOICEOVERs turned off, so that other languages can be heard. A new CHALLENGE/RESPONSE option would be recorded for the Com-Rose. The words used must sound distinctive, loud and clear, so that it would be easy to identify in game. Of course this idea is for short range only, but it is where it really matters. For long range, there's always time to check the map.

Summary:
-In 64+ servers there are no name tags, and people picking up enemy kit geometry, this is a problem for IFF
-Create "CHALLENGE + RESPONSE" sounds in COM-ROSE (could be any distinctive phrase or even sound specific to different factions)
-If not sure person wearing friendly kit with no tag is friend/foe, press CHALLENGE, and if he doesn't respond or responds in another language or faction's response, shoot him.

[Arnoldio]

FOB is another thing.

Let me clear things up. Rally Point, as the name suggests is a spot where squad will regroup and reconsider their options, get up to full strenght etc. You place it when you need it not when you think you will need it for the next 15 minutes.

FOB, Forward Operating Base, is the thing you put down when you think you will need it, thats why its acceptable for it to spawn many people, to simulate being a sub-mainbase, where people get transferred to when in need. Imaginary plane brings you from UK to Al Basrah, then an imaginary troop truck transports you to some FOB and you spawn there. With only 32 players per team, PR cannot simulate real reinforcements so this is what it represents so far.

6 FOBs at a time is way too much, i would like 3 at max, because maps often have 5 flags on the field and that means 2 FOBs at each flag for defense and the third oneis for attacking in ideal PR world. When your team moves on to the next flag, you have to destroy one of the previous ones and that requires logisitcs etc. As you said, more FOBs means the winning team, and with additonal rallies that last 15 mintues you get another 9 mini-FOBs for each squad and that is not the point of a rally. I would understand 2 or 3 minutes for the purpose of being more accesible for the people who would miss it in the 60 second timeframe, but thats about it.

And, CanuckCommander. No. Just no. Long range is the problem, so how am i suppose to hear the guys response click 150-300m away? Not to mention enemies would hear it aswell. And it was used in WW2. Not picking up enemy kits is completely good idea.

[Murphy]

Why is there such a negative view on the RP changes? If people want to give up and rush in they are costing their team tickets and it is a calculated risk the SL decided to take. The same squad that killed our respawning squad still holds the objective, and are most likely ready for another attack seeing as how their position is obviously communicated to the rest of the team (if not the SL is doing it wrong).

So it's just a matter of how long the individual players feel is appropriate between fights, some like slow methodical approaches while others would try to take advantage of an opponent who is possibly on his back foot. It also adds another layer of search and destroy (over run) using more of the battlefield, I see this as a positive that everyone over looked. Defensive squads now have a disadvantage where they used to have an ace in the hole, if you don't take your head out of the sand and search for the RP you will pay for it eventually.

I did however find the "RP stays till over-run" concept a little to heavy handed, I think 10-15 minutes is perfect as it allows a squad one or two respawns depending on how far they are going and how badly they get owned.

[Arnoldio]

Problem is, the assaulting squads get immediate upper hand out of thin air just by placing a RP somewhere in the back. Defenders get surprised, especially if its a CQB map, they cant set a rally, cant get ammo, while attackers just keep coming and coming. Everything about staying alive /keep SL alive goes out of the window untill the rally is not down.

I have 6 guys patrolling, we get attacked by an enemy squad who has seen us and put down a rally. We kill them all, while they start respawning one by one. If we kill them the second time, ratio is 2v1, for the third round of their assault we are thin on ammo, we fail, they overrun our position because we actually stood the ground. If we would fall back to get our own rally, so we can counter them, we would give them free ground, or if we decided to attack to eliminate their rally, whats the point of defending then...

Compared to the PR system now, where if we held them back, SL and another one would have to stay alive, fall back 100m, wait for others to respawn and go back., that is 10 people in total. 6 vs 10 is a fair fight. If you kill them when they go at you the other time, you have won. You are the winner of that firefight, you can setup and relocate while they come at you again from a FOB 300m away.

Not to mention if you are preparing an ambush, and the squad you are right about to attack, has a rally somewhere. While your fist wave might be effective, they can easily respawn and now they know your position, then there is no point of ambushing really.



Thouhgh i have an idea for db, make another test with same RP logic of 15 minutes, BUT if after the RP is placed, SL respawns, the rally disappears. So the last one to spawn back once is SL and that is the end of the rally. Whole squad can respawn untill its down indefinitely. Maybe this could be a nice twist?

[Mats391]

Thouhgh i have an idea for db, make another test with same RP logic of 15 minutes, BUT if after the RP is placed, SL respawns, the rally disappears. So the last one to spawn back once is SL and that is the end of the rally. Whole squad can respawn untill its down indefinitely. Maybe this could be a nice twist?

but than you could just replace the RP after respawn and keep going

[Murphy]

Yes I get the point of allowing defenders to gather their resources and prepare for the next attack, but if that defending squad isn't being reinforced it's just ending their stand-off earlier then normal. If the defenders are well supplied (or even better have another squad moving to assist) there is absolutely zero chance of dislodging them, put a good squad squad in a T building and have fun getting them out. Let's not forget that the defenders can have a rally point just out of sight/over run distance and easily reinforce their position if it is needed.

I do however like the SL respawn idea, it would put more value on keeping him alive and holding things together in the worst situations.

[ytman]

I have 6 guys patrolling, we get attacked by an enemy squad who has seen us and put down a rally. We kill them all, while they start respawning one by one. If we kill them the second time, ratio is 2v1, for the third round of their assault we are thin on ammo, we fail, they overrun our position because we actually stood the ground. If we would fall back to get our own rally, so we can counter them, we would give them free ground, or if we decided to attack to eliminate their rally, whats the point of defending then...

1st things first you just 'won' out on tickets that first battle.
Say:

Round one
6v6 = 4(+2 revives)v0 win Tickets lost (2 versus 12)

Round two
6v6 = 3 (medic down?) v 0 Tickets lost (6 versus 12)

Round three
3v6 =0v5(+1 revive) Tickets lost (6 versus 1)

Total tickets lost

(14v25)

Your patrol lost the current battle but they fought valiantly against (effectively) larger numbers. Perhaps you lost the initiative when you did not pursue the enemy after Round 1 to destroy the rally... perhaps your fate was sealed when you didn't retreat after round three...

2nd Point?

Defense Versus Offense should almost always see the Offense outnumber the Defense... not out numbering, in this case not having a steady flow of reinforcements breaks the 3 to 1 rule that we've had for the last 100 years of modern warfare.

Again... I think the new rally system is good enough... other tweaks might work out better but I like this Rally system... 15 minutes is not a long time considering PR's time/distance scale. 100m is also VERY short distance as well.

[Nebsif]

blabla.. I still remember some pre 0.95 or even earlier qwai round which played spawn-die-spawn-die-spawn-die-spawn-die w/o ever a feeling of winning any firefight or clearing a flag as every1 just kept coming on and on, and running around like a headless chicken in hope of finding the magic bags didnt help any1.
Why do I still rememb it? COZ IT WAS HORRIBULLL, BORING, REPETETIVE, and SPAMMYYY!! T.T

There's a huge difference between pooping a few bags by clickin a button and getting a sneaky supply drop and showeling that not so small FoB. >.<

[Murphy]

Ytman the only thing is if that squad is defending a flag (like they should be) they just lost 30 extra tickets on top of the 14. The defending squad out fought and out played the attackers but in the end they end up costing their team 44 tickets and the enemy 25. This is what Arnoldio is trying to point out, at least that's what I gathered from reading his post.

Spammy play is indeed the only real cost of this RP change, and it does give less skilled players a few retries which may not be the best solution but apparently some feel it has merit.

[Portable.Cougar]

I thought it would change my SL style and make.me.prone to rushing more. Turns out I'm so ingrained in the old school no deaths slow paced PR mentality that no amount of RP's can change my game play.

sent from the phone using magic

[ytman]

Ytman the only thing is if that squad is defending a flag (like they should be) they just lost 30 extra tickets on top of the 14. The defending squad out fought and out played the attackers but in the end they end up costing their team 44 tickets and the enemy 25. This is what Arnoldio is trying to point out, at least that's what I gathered from reading his post.

Spammy play is indeed the only real cost of this RP change, and it does give less skilled players a few retries which may not be the best solution but apparently some feel it has merit.

A patrol and a Defense are two different things afaik. I don't defend with my entire squad on patrol.... Beyond that I would assume that the Defense Rally should still be up, assuming that the 'patrol' would have been on the perimeter of the flag... or an FOp would be available to reinforce. Again the flow of reinforcements is very important. And you should not be defending a point with just 6 men...

I was against these rally changes at first and was agreeing with you boys when we did the 'infinite' rally test. I personally want some changes (reduced to 10 minutes, unable to place one down without destroying the old one) but I feel that this is a worthwhile change.

Logistics are still super important, perhaps moreso now that only one HAT is available, and respawning/spammy warfare is very inefficient warfare... consideration should be made about that.

[Alpha.s9]

Rallies being so easy to drop, I worry that they will make APC and transport vehicles even less used for transport than they already are.

My personal opinion is that the rally system should be used to allow a squad to regroup. That means you drop it when there are guys you can't revive, allowing them to respawn and be with the squad.

If you go into combat expecting to get "wiped" and need to respawn, you should have to rely on a FOB. I'd much rather see something like a really short timer on the rally but have it heal and/or give ammo to those around it as opposed to an infinite stream of troops pouring into an objective. I'd also like to see the re-arm timer removed and the only way to get another one is from the main, an APC/IFV or a FOB.

Those changes would help bring some need for transportation back into the game, but the cost is more than I'm willing to pay. In exchange for the above you have long intervals without any action while people struggle to get into position.

We have to find a balance between spammy and realism that is still fun to play.

[ytman]

One thing I want to add;

The altered rally does not negate the value of APC/IFV support but rather allows infantry action to be done when none is available. The APC/IFV Mechanized Inf squad will still pwn faces when possible. What it does do is afford a team an option to not risk these valuable assets for close fighting that might not be reasonable until an infantry vanguard has softened the front lines.

It still stands that a full dead squad is worth more than all IFV/APCs (not including crew).

Now the goal of any infantry engagement is 'land grabbing', what I mean by that is that your presence creates a 100m radius bubble of Enemy-Rally-Point-Death. So tactics must now change to incorporate the concept of 'pursuing' a defeated enemy and 'routing' them fully. Perhaps no rearming Rallies is an interesting concept... with the current 'long life time'. I think that is very reasonable.

It'll tie a squad to that rally and make it's placement and lose all the more critical.

Rallies are nice I like them. I was a big fan of the short 1 minute rally that represented a 'regrouping', but that doesn't mean I'm not against a rally system that represents a 'Platoon'. I've always subscribed to the idea that PR is a battle of scales. What we ask of a squad to do in real life would be expected of a Platoon.

I personally want to try Lashkar as Tali now as to try the new Rally System combined with the new Insurgency rules.

[ryan d ale]

It would be good if server list could be updated.

For example, last night I played Kokan & Napalm and there was 2 caches visible at times and therefore I would argue that the server reverted to running 'vanilla PR'.

[MaSSive]

I thought it would change my SL style and make.me.prone to rushing more. Turns out I'm so ingrained in the old school no deaths slow paced PR mentality that no amount of RP's can change my game play.

sent from the phone using magic

Amen.

This spawn thing is already so gamey, and now adding it more, makes it real gun-run game. I dont see where could this system have benefits, and why would we make it faster. Either leave it as it is with RP, or make squad rally's expire after xy players spawned on it. After that you will need a supply crate to rearm it.

[Kain888]

Amen.

This spawn thing is already so gamey, and now adding it more, makes it real gun-run game. I dont see where could this system have benefits, and why would we make it faster. Either leave it as it is with RP, or make squad rally's expire after xy players spawned on it. After that you will need a supply crate to rearm it.

Agreed. As for people who have "immersive" style, be aware that many people will exploit anything and use rush tactics more, unlike "old school" players as Cougar defined them.