Noob question about deviation

[Joker86]

Hi there!

Sorry if I come up with this matter again, I guess the experienced forum members can't read it any more, but I couldn't find any clue about it by forum search (probably because if the info was given it happened randomly somewhere in the middle of a long topic)

The question is:

What is the reason for the extend of deviation? I mean, when I encounter an enemy in about 20-30m, I immediately drop to the ground, wait perhaps 2 seconds (which is awfully long if you are facing each other) and start shooting with my AK on him, I can waste the whole magazine without killing him. And standing is even worse! If I can't put my muzzle on his chest I won't be able to hit him!

Now the question is: why is that? I understand that this ultimative precision like Insurgency (the HL2-mod, not the PR-gamemode) can lead to some weird pinpoint accuracy duels while moving, and I know deviation is the only solution possible with the BF2 engine (I found out that much searching for the answer), but still I don't see why you need to make it that extreme? :

I mean, gameplay wise reducing the maximum deviation (if there is such a thing ) by 50% wouldn't hurt, I imagine. This is not a hidden suggestion, because I know if my suggestion would make sense to the developers they would have changed it long before. I just want to ask what you want to achieve with this extreme deviation.

I know you don't want the players to run around the corner, see an enemy 100m down the street, aim, shoot and kill him, which is perfectly fine.

But with the relatively long (5 to 8 seconds can feel like and eternity sometimes) deviation and its maximum extend CQB is made more or less a gamble, and it encourages camping instead of rushing. I know those are expressions from more shooter like games, but still I think it wouldn't hurt if you could walk down the street slowly, aiming with your rifle, and if you go around a corner and see an enemy, you should at least be able to hit him reliably at a distance of about 20-30m. And I think this should be realistic as well, because unless you get really surprised with shouting "WHOA!" like finding a snake in your boots you will hit on 10-15 m, even if firing from the hip.

But currently aggressive advance is no option. It's either camping without moving or camping with making a step forward all two seconds.

[badmojo420]

In my opinion the deviation is extreme to encourage teamwork, or to discourage lone wolfing. Depends how you want to look at it.

You spot an enemy, and your squad kills him. When you have 6 people firing at a target, some bullets are going to find their mark. Or better yet, some of the squad suppresses the enemy while a couple people wait for their deviation to settle fully and then take the kill shot.

[Joker86]

Okay, but to me this sounds rather like an "artificial" solution to promote teamplay.

And especially in CQB you do NOT have your full team seeing the enemy, either are most of them still around the corner, or your own teammates are blocking the line of fire or the like.

??:

[Mj Pain]

Its simple.. Dont pronedive and you should be able to hit targets at 20-30m within one second without a problem.

Another tip. You can let your deviation settle before you move around a corner. If you move for one sec after you have reached minimum devation, you only need one sec to get back to minimum again.

Go practice to get a feel for it.

[Boris.T.Spider]

I mean, when I encounter an enemy in about 20-30m, I immediately drop to the ground, wait perhaps 2 seconds (which is awfully long if you are facing each other) and start shooting with my AK on him, I can waste the whole magazine without killing him. And standing is even worse! If I can't put my muzzle on his chest I won't be able to hit him!

Main thing to remember is Z Prone is an evasive manouver and should only be used to break line of sight, unless you have time to set up a shot on an unwary target. The prone in BF2 is realy fast, it is literaly throwing yourself on the floor, doesnt matter if you can do so in such a manner that you could shoot right away, the other guy only has to move his rifle to his shoulder and pull the trigger, a fight he always should win.

As for standing deviation, in 1vs1 at the distances your describing, I wouldnt even factor it in, just go to knee and unload your clip at him. IMHO deviation is a problem almost exclusivly for snipers and marksmen to worry about.

[badmojo420]

In CQB I like to crouch walk around with my sights up. It's accurate and not too slow.

If you walk around normally and fire from the hip you'll be lucky to hit anything that isn't right in front of you.

I made this video to show the differences between firing from hip and aiming... Inaccuracy when firing from hip - YouTube

[[508th_PIR] Grey]

The deviation system is something you get a feel for over time. It took me forever to get used to it, but lately I find I am winning more firefights than I am losing, and I am usually a medic when playing BLUFOR, so I generally use iron sights. I even "sniped" a couple of guys on Fallujah West last night with the AK47, at a range of @170M.

There's some good info/advice in the previous posts. Take heed and above all be patient. You might die a lot at first, but you'll get it.

[Joker86]

Actually my experience is, that if you run, see an enemy 10-20m in front of you, you stop, aim your assault rifle, place the sight directly on him and unlead your magazine, you can be happy if you hit him. If you wait 1-2 seconds things get slightly better, but still your accuracy is not above 30m.

I am asking: why is it this way? Why can't I see somebody, stop, aim and shoot immediately and hit reliably up to 30m?

It's not about me not getting a feeling for it. It's that I don't want to wait until I can shoot somebody. My character has no parkinson, he should have good accuracy up to 30m.

I just remember my game yesterday, where I had a PKM and was aiming in one direction when I got shot at. So I moved a little bit aside and waited crouching. Just the moment I settled down I got shot from the other direction. I turned around and saw a Marine unloading his clip on me, but not hitting me at all. I guess he was that startled that he immediately fired his weapon. He was standing right at the corner of the house next to me, while I was standing at the other corner. How long is am average house? 10-15m perhaps? He didn't hit me at all and was reloading. While he did so he went prone. I started unloading my belt on him and needed like 20-30 shot to him him lying there.

I think the story should have been that way:

I had moved myself and in the moment I settled down a Marine came around the corner. He was totally startled encountering me there, but in a reflex he raised his gun to the shoulder and killed me with three shots. End of the story.

To me the second version sounds much more realistic than the first.

You know, when you have moved and you see someone and aim, your cone of fire feels like this:



It should feel more like this:



I know I can have the second picture after about 3 seconds of waiting... but often enough you do not have 3 seconds. Such a deviation just looks unrealistic to me, and I ask myself why? It's not like CQB would be something undesired or should be either slow or luck based like hell, or am I wrong?

[Anderson29]

dude, quit whining...badmojo's video clearly showed that at 25meters while moving standing and crouched while looking down the sights consistently hit the window which we could say is approximately a man sized target or slightly bigger. and your argument is frankly something we see here about once a week. take some time and practice cqb by your self in a server, practice stances, shooting while moving, get in the habit of when seeing a target that sees you at the same time closer than 70meters to just take a knee and not go prone and you will be more successful. i had to practice this and many others have as well especially if you want to be a good all around player. i have joined an empty server as blufor, drove a bunch of vehicles out in the desert in basra at different ranges then switched to insurgent, got an ammo truck and drove to an slightly elevated spot, dumped all the crates and proceeded to practice shooting rpgs and different ranges until i got pretty confident with my skills...i suggest u just practice and learn the art that is project reality and enjoy your time here.

some tips:
4 seconds with regular rifle will get you to minimum deviation while standing for targets at around 200m.

crouched is the same time but you will get more accurate for targets at 250m.

going prone makes your deviation spike in order to reduce the prone diving which is unrealistic, use prone like in the post above said, for unsuspecting targets and really long range targets.

for closer targets you dont have to wait the full 4 seconds and this is what you need to practice.

sniper rifle takes 7 seconds once you stop moving for minimum deviation and i believe its a second and a half or 2 seconds you need in between shots. (i dont snipe often)

if you get a weapon that deploys like the marksmen or the AR's are the same as regular rifle but if you go deployed its deviation acts similar to the snipers deviation except you can shoot full auto very controlled in prone, crouched and standing.

i believe AT's act like rifles with the need for about 4 seconds for minimum deviation.

again practice makes perfect.

hope this helps

[CanuckCommander]

The problem isn't deviation but the lack of a deviation indicator. This is a video game after all and players need to visually see the deviation settle, otherwise there may be loss of immersion, a feeling of disconnectedness from your weapon, which you are supposed to be holding in your hand.

[Boris.T.Spider]

Dunno what to sugest Joker, only time my deviation ever feels like those images is when I'm firing from hip or after diving prone, you are aiming right? Saying you should be able to just raise your rifle and hit a target at 30m is fine for target range shooting, but in practice, when you come face to face with an enemy at that kind of range you are not going to even try to place accurate shots on him, you are going to go for cover and unload your rifle in his general direction to stop him doing the same thing to you. The only time you should ever be thinking about trying to place accurate killing shots is if the enemy is unaware of you. The deviation mechanic, like the suppresion effect, while being gamey and unrealisic to an extent is there to stop you behaving in a gamey and unrealisic manner, something I think PR realy achieves, the end product is something that appears at least to me, a lot closer to actual firefights than in most FPS games.

[Joker86]

Well, in my experience it is not possible to sweep the streets by moving with an aimed weapon, as you won't hit the broad side of a barn on ranges above 3m. But if you say it's possible, then probably my noob perception fooled me. I will give it a shot again. Thx for the answers so far.

[CommunistComma]

The problem isn't deviation but the lack of a deviation indicator. This is a video game after all and players need to visually see the deviation settle, otherwise there may be loss of immersion, a feeling of disconnectedness from your weapon, which you are supposed to be holding in your hand.

They can't do weapon shake because of the 13 year old locked engine.

A bar or something would be nice though.

[Steeps]

My secret: Never ever use a scope on an assault rifle or automatic rifle. There's a massive difference in deviation times.


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[AquaticPenguin]

My secret: Never ever use a scope on an assault rifle or automatic rifle. There's a massive difference in deviation times.

Deviation for scoped and un-scoped is the same though?

[qs-racer]

In the past years, i was thinking PR deviation was too much when you prone.
But i have test a full metal airsoft AK, pretty heavy and :
- it take time to prone
- it take time to put the riffle correctly on shoulder
- it take time to recover your target and aim it (specialy on iron sigth).

So you need 5 secondes to aim a target at 30m.

Maybe you will reconsider your opinion about the big deviation of PR, it is a good average between game play and realism.

[[508th_PIR] Grey]

Deviation for scoped and un-scoped is the same though?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure deviation time is not related to whether or not you are using optics. Perhaps he means ADS time? Iron sights are definitely faster to get on target than any scope.

[Arnoldio]

My secret: Never ever use a scope on an assault rifle or automatic rifle. There's a massive difference in deviation times.


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WTF you on about? Its the same. Hell deviationt is the same for all rifles of all factions pretty much.

Also, deviation works just nice, need to pracice your moves and stop duking it out in the open like in some western. find cover, use tactics... thats what this game is about.

[EpicSandwhich]

I really do not have any problems with deviation any more. I simply solved it by not going prone when encountering enemies. By simply crouching i can take 3 enemies out in a matter of 3 - 5 seconds. Another thing you can do is to move slowly when you expect enemies. Seems to help me out.

[Bob of Mage]

Deviation for scoped and un-scoped is the same though?

Not true. Using something like ACOG sights means that each time you aim down the sights it takes time to settle, but when using say reflex sight you don't get the same delay. Think about it, you first have to line up your sights then find your target. An ACOG gives you a whole new view, while a set of reflex sights just puts a set of sights in front of you.

EDIT: For the worst aim ever try dropping to prone from a run with a scoped AR while setting up the bipod and then try to hit the broad side of anything for next minute.