Pavlovsk Bay .973 Map Feedback

[Navo]

US can easily win, the problem is that the map actually requires skill and some tactical insight.

[Murphy]

Might be all cool for an organized match, but this map asks too much of random pubbies to make it worth while to have it in rotation.

[Rudd]

I honestly cannot remember the changes I put into the map when I last worked on it and handed all the files over to the active PR team, but I hope it's more forgiving now on the USA without punishing the Russians too much. I'm pretty sure I rearranged the flags a bit so there's more focus on the map center, removed some AA guns etc.

I think Russians get spawns near the first flags but not directly on them...and I think I've set the bleed up so the Russians have to cap back flags to bleed the US...but again...memory is hazy, I have too much nursing knowledge trying to push all my PR bits out of my brain...

[chrisweb89]

Play tests are good, maybe we should try some before the full release, then we can fix balancing issues before the next patch 6 months later.

[tankninja1]

Some of the Russians fixed AA guns should be removed or replaced with desroyed models because, it hard to belive the Marines would launch an invasion with no preperatory fire

[BulletPr0of]

I have only played this map around ten times, about four of which as US, and we won each of those games. The trans pilots didn't fly towards the Quad cannons, as the threat is somewhat obvious, Fobs were set up a good distance from the first flags, about three fobs, H-AT teams took out the quad cannons allowing CAS to establish some superiority forcing the Russians to keep their heads down, and the Infantry pushed in, cleared the flag, and held it, this happened on each of the games I played as US.

When playing as the Russians I noticed Global chat was being spammed with comments regarding how over powered the positions of the quad cannons were, yet time and time again the Hueys would fly right into their sights and get taken out in seconds, to be followed by more of the same chat spam. This to me doesn't seem an issue with the map, more the pilots so used to being able to land on a flag unopposed.

There probably are a few tweaks that could be made, but I don't think getting rid of the Russian spawn locations or their AA capabilities is the way forward, I would like to see more subtle changes, a slower bleed perhaps or as mentioned above a delay on the AA. But from what I've seen on this map when ever the US do lose it's because their initial attack is either rushed without fobs, drip feeding the Russian defense kills, or the pilots are being too brave.

[Conman51]

Juts finished a round on CIA.

Im going to be straight forward with this. It sucks for the US.

Air power is over estimated, i dont know why Map makers think it will instantly make one side win. The cobras and stuff are easy to counter. AA scares every pilot away!

The AAVs are slow to get to the battle and they cant do shit against the 30mm BTR, even the BTR with the small gun poses a problem to the AAV.

The worst part is that the Russians SPAWN ON THE FLAG THAT MAKES THE US BLEED TICKETS!! WHY!?!??!?

[dtacs]

After playing the map more I agree. It's my most disliked AAS map. The flags make no sense and too much of the map is left with useless negative space.

I still want to see how the 2km version was going to play out, but now that Rudd is retired I don't think the map is going to be edited physically anymore, along with most other maps.

[Rudd]

Riiiighto Chaps

A few of you played on the 100p Pavlovsk test which was very useful to the PR team as it both gave us information about 100p gameplay and also how to balance Pavlovsk for both teams.

Here you can see how the flags are set up, the idea behind the new flag setup is to slow down the Russians being prepared for the USMC assault, and also to keep the bleed without it being able to activate immediately from game start. (i.e. to reward a successful Russian team without penalising a USMC team from the word 'go')

All the red circles are Russian at game start, all the grey ones are neutral. To turn on the bleed the Russians have to backcap a couple of flags.

The Russians have still got their spawnpoints and some AA/AAA from game start, however they are all at the harbour. - also the selection and number of AA/AAA at those locations is different per layer - the most being on 128; however the locations should be all the same.

Note, the supply depots are now marked on the map with uncappable flags, to ensure the Marines understand they do not have to return to the carrier (unless they really want to)

This helps ensure the USMC should get on the ground, but the Russians have bastions of strength to fall back to, defended by ready made AA until the team gets their own AA assets deployed.




Here are the assets for the 128 layer

USMC -

3 x UNH1
4 x RHIB
3 x AAVP7A1
1 x Cobra- (delayed)
1 x Harrier- (delayed)
2 x UHN1- (delayed)
2 x RHIB- (delayed)
1 x AAVP7A1- (delayed)




Russia -

BTR80
MTLB 50cal
3 x Support Trucks
2 x Gophers- (delayed)
1 x Mi8- (delayed)
1 x Havoc- (delayed)
1 x BMP3- (delayed)
1 x BTR80- (delayed)
2 x Support Trucks- (non-respawning)

Multiple spawn points
AA/AAA positions




Here is 64

USMC -

3 x UNH1
4 x RHIB
2 x AAVP7A1
1 x Cobra- (delayed)
1 x Harrier- (delayed)
2 x UHN1- (delayed)

Russia -

BTR80
MTLB 50cal
3 x Support Trucks
2 x Gophers- (delayed)
1 x Mi8- (delayed)
1 x Havoc- (delayed)
1 x BTR80a- (delayed)
1 x BTR80- (delayed)
2 x Support Trucks- (non-respawning)

And finally here is 16 - which does not feature AAA

USMC -

3 x UNH1
4 x RHIB
4 x RHIB- (delayed)

Russia -

4 x Support Trucks
2 x Support Trucks- (non-respawning)
2 x Support Trucks- (delayed)

[Murphy]

Some well thought out changes Rudd, it's really nice to see a rebalance of air assets.

I'm eager to see how this map plays.

[dtacs]

Assets make sense but I still see the flag issues present. AASv4 made no difference when it comes to attacking flags; people still go way out of the way to attack flags which have no strategic importance. Whilst those layouts look good in theory what Russian APC isn't going to want to rush the supply base at the start Muttrah-style and kill whatever is there?

One of the more serious issues is that the AAV is terrible. It dies easily and has problems getting to shore before the Russian armor kills them in the water, and since the M2 can't penetrate the BTR's armor the gunner has to rely on the Mk19 rangefinder which few know how to use, or that it's even functional.

Its in my opinion that in a fight like this the Marines would be using LCAC's in full force, and along with that comes Abrams' or more appealingly, a fleet of LAR LAV-25's that could spawn @ the US first flag simulating a beachhead that they establish once the flag is taken. Sure air assets are fancy and can pack a real punch, but they are extremely fragile and a risk is taken ticket-wise every time its used. Players taking MANPAD's way out to the beaches to kill returning air is happening already, and will even moreso once CAS is added to the pot. Armor is more realiable and makes more sense on a map like this as it is a full-scale beach assault from an MEU. I've been saying for ages now that combined arms is the best way to play PR and QRF's are the key to presenting it, there is so much untouched potential if they are done right.



That's just my take on the situation, look forward to seeing how your changes play out in-game.

[Rudd]

well the supply zone is just a marked flag with a USMC depot and truck once the first flag is capped...its only really there for repairs and vehicle rearming, most ammo will be delivered by air for the infantry

I agree I'd like to see heavier assets delivered to the shoreline, however unless a system is implemented in the core mod to deliver LAV25s/Tanks/etc to the shoreline, there's nothing I can do.

I can't set them to spawn on the land because that will result in Russians destroying them as soon as they spawn, I could possibly put one on the East spawnzone, but I'd have to cut off a significant distance of map with a combat zone; and I'd rather not do that.

In this layout if players are attacking unstrategic flags.....they lose imo, if they are Russians they'll get grasshoppered by fast moving USMC air squads, if they are USMC they'll get bled out.

[40mmrain]

the 30mm btr and bmp will make things very, very challenging for the AAVPs, air assets are going to be a huge deal for the for americans, i hope players will adapt and not be over aggressive with the cobra, and infantry laze appropriately for the harrier.

[Rudd]

I'm really hoping the cobra will do some escorting of transport choppers while the harrier does most of the CAS

[Conman51]

Have you tested how effective it is to have jets bombing in forest environments?

My fear is that if you laze a target in the trees the harrier will not be able to acquire the laze because the trees will block its view. Making the jet useless.

[Murphy]

Let's not forget how effective infantry with AT can be in a forest like this map, even with thermals a BMP will have problems staying alive long enough to be effective. The infantry can hear the enemy armor from very far away and using the terrain for cover you can already sneak up on the AAVPs with a HAT kit and the Marines get a guided HAT making it that much easier.

[40mmrain]

yes, I agree.

staying with infantry has netted me a little success with the AAVs but it's certainly a huge challenge.

Harrier's anti havoc duty will be important too.

[dtacs]

Let's not forget how effective infantry with AT can be in a forest like this map, even with thermals a BMP will have problems staying alive long enough to be effective. The infantry can hear the enemy armor from very far away and using the terrain for cover you can already sneak up on the AAVPs with a HAT kit and the Marines get a guided HAT making it that much easier.

Truth. I can see the BMP just hiking it to the water and going around the coast making it easier, like many BTR's do on Jabal.

[chrisweb89]

If a cobra tries to escort a huey into the unknown, it has a better chance of dieing than the huey. If AAs lock the huey and miss, they can lock the cobra mid flight and give no warning. If you want escort, you need a flying tank like the attack huey, not a cobra which can be taken down easily (I'm not sure its underpwered, just that want be escorting flying tank trans with my paper thin 20min asset).

My feedback on the asset layouts:
128 layer: Give the US an attack huey that respawns like it currently is, and remove the havok for more ground vehicles for russians, like a tank or more BTRs. Right now you have the same amount of BTRs as the current version on 64. Russian assets maybe 1 BTR-80 instant spawn, 1 delayed spawn + 2 BTR-80A delayed spawn. Have a fight of US air vs RUS ground, the forrest fighting won't make air overpowered, and between russian AA, and autocannons CAS will have it tough.

64 layer: Again make it CAS vs ground, but only 1 AAV and reduced vehicles for both sides, and if you want put a 32 layer with the havok.

The map will be hard enough for US CAS with reduced visability, the trees, BTRs and BMPs, and AAVs, we don't need the havok hunting the cobra on top of all of that.

To get a LAV to spawn near a beach flag, or whtever the US first flag is, why not have it spawn in a small shield(the carrier type, and main base type) that you can't shoot into or out of thats off the flag a bit.

As for flags, why not an attack onto G8? Just looking at the map that seems like a spot I would want as US, not the other points that as dtacs mentioned, set up flags that make no sense. Having a flag in G8, you could then go east trhough the J column area, or go west around the harbour, and up the main road. The current beach flags do weird cutbacks that make 0 sense. Why do I fly around AA battery to take west beach, then go cap AA battery? Why not attack AA battery from the start, just one of the many flags that makes me wonder.

[izoiva]

US LAV is swimming vehicle, as I know. So it can spawn on carrier.