PKM significantly underpowered

[Fandango]

The russian AR does have a scope, for all intents and purposes. Go take the kit and see for yourself.

Secondly, the pkm is not inaccurate at all, nor is the bullet damage low. Can someone proficient with BF2 editor or whatever come in here and give us some numbers? It's simply not nearly as weak, inaccurate, slow, or bad as people are asserting. It does not recoil more than similar caliber counterparts, it does not fire slowly. Giving anecdotes about how you missed a guy at 200m after waiting a second or two after deploying are worthless, the numbers are all that matters.

It just.. isn't weak.

Did you ever play with it? Or did you play enough to see how reliable this AR in firefights? People here talking about in-game situations, gameplay, how effective is. Numbers shouldn't be an argument. You seem like little unexperienced, in my opinion.

[Joker86]

It's because "Automatic Rifleman" refers to the fact that the weapon that is usually deployed at a fireteam level uses the same cartridge as the standard rifle. Because it is designed for sustained automatic fire, it is dubbed an "automatic rifle". What is commonly called a "machine gun" is something in the M240/PKM class, which is usually considered a "general purpose" machine gun. They are usually a step up from the caliber used in the "Automatic Rifle", while falling short of something like a DshK or .50 cal, both of which are in the 12.7 mm class and are significantly more powerful. While you are correct that the current AR class could be considered a "light machinegunner", that's not the nomenclature used in PR, probably because the US/NATO armed forces use "auto rifleman". Not to sound US centric, but seeing as the mod is developed in english, and the forums are all english, it make sense to use the nomenclature that is used by armies that work in english.

Thanks for clearing this up. Seems I need to readjust

[40mmrain]

Did you ever play with it? Or did you play enough to see how reliable this AR in firefights? People here talking about in-game situations, gameplay, how effective is. Numbers shouldn't be an argument. You seem like little unexperienced, in my opinion.

no, numbers should be the argument. Numbers should be the argument for everything. You can talk all day about "I got killed my an m249 with my pkm", or in my case "I killed 5 enemies at 300m+ with the pkm all in small bursts" never reaching a conclusion. However, if the numbers tell us that indeed, the pkm's accuracy is way shittier than the m249 then the problem is clear, and one side has no leg to stand on.

For example, ill use arbitrary units, but it illustrates my point. Let's imagine if all weapons had 4 statistics, recoil un deployed (deployed is always zero), rate of fire, damage, and overall accuracy (factors in deviation settling time, overall minimum, etc)

If the m249's stats were as so (the higher, the better for accuracy, the lower the better for recoil)
Accuracy: 8
Recoil: 2
rate of fire: 950rpm
damage: 50

Pkm
Accuracy: 4
recoil: 10
rate of fire: 600
damage: 60

no matter what, obviously the pkm is inferior and requires a buff, or the m249 a nerf. However, if the stats are more as such

m249
Accuracy: 7
recoil: 3
rate of fire: 950
damage: 40

Pkm
Accuracy: 6
recoil: 8
rate of fire: 650
damage: 80

then arguably theyre infact close, and people are just using the second incorrectly, or it's perceived as worse for reasons I listed before. I agree that the stats of the PKM presently, even though I dont know them are unrealistic. HOwever, I just dont agree that is AS BAD AS YOU ALL SAY, words like "appalling", and "awful". I agree the PKM could use a change, I would give a big accuracy boost, at the cost of movement speed, and draw time personally, but the numbers is what we should be talking about here, it would be much more productive

[Joker86]

In the end only the results count. And if the result is, that most of the players do NOT get along with the PKM as well as with other ARs, then you need to change it.

And even the fact that with some misterious proper usage, which apparently differs from keeping the sight on the enemy and shooting in bursts, the PKM is suddenly as good as all the other weapons, then it's still inferior because other ARs do not need this learning curve, and what would be if the other ARs would be used the way you need to use the PKM properly?

[40mmrain]

I know, that's why I said it could simply be perceived as bad, due to a usual difference of optics. Plus, a placebo effect can always take place when these things are suggested, where you tent to remember your follies with the one weapon, and forget about them with another because the one is on your mind.

Plus, I mean how many are actually saying it's this bad? Are we seeing an accurate representation of the PR community, or just the particular players who hate the weapon? This thread is the only instance in PR that i've seen the PKM touted as this bad. If you read the first page of the thread, there are plenty of users that dont think it is all that bad.

[Mouthpiece]

Agree about PKM being the worse one of conventional faction ARs.

And, 40mm, that's "bias", not a "placebo effect" that you were talking about in 2nd paragraph.
I consider myself atleast decent with every AR (although I had some terrible moments with them, but in different aspect than shooting), but I try to stay away from PKM. It's just that the enemy AR gunner has a bigger chance to outgun you thus making a big difference on the battlefield because your squad suddenly doesn't have the man with greatest ranged AP potential.

P.S.
Oh, the joy of correcting others (and the tingling in my pants)!

[Murphy]

I see 40mms point though, if we could see the actual numbers behind the weapon (in-game) maybe we can pin-point the issue. In the end it might surprise a lot of us by actually being statistically on par with the other ARs, in which case the fault would somehow lay in the players hands even though it's plain to see other ARs will win in a 1 on 1 situation.

When I use the PKM I try my best to avoid head on fights with other ARs but that seriously hinders my squad as they would naturally rely on their own AR to counter the enemy. It's a shame because when we take volume of fire and accuracy into account the best counter for one AR is the opposite squads AR (not to say a DMR/Sniper Rifle, or a well placed shot from an assault rifle couldn't end the fight instantly).

[ExNusquam]

Here are the recoil and deviation sections for the USMC SAW and the RUS PKM, deployed and undeployed. Draw what conclusions you will.
M249, Undeployed

Code: Select all

rem ---BeginComp:SingleFireComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SingleFireComp
ObjectTemplate.fire.roundsPerMinute 900
ObjectTemplate.fire.addFireRate 2
ObjectTemplate.fire.fireInCameraDof 1
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp :D efaultAmmoComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent DefaultAmmoComp
ObjectTemplate.ammo.ammoType 1
ObjectTemplate.ammo.nrOfMags 6
ObjectTemplate.ammo.magSize 100
ObjectTemplate.ammo.reloadTime 9.8
ObjectTemplate.ammo.reloadWithoutPlayer 0
ObjectTemplate.ammo.magLinkWeapon uslmg_m249acogdeployed
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp:SoldierBasedRecoilComp ---
rem Long Barrel 556 SAW
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierBasedRecoilComp
ObjectTemplate.recoil.hasRecoilForce 1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceUp CRD_UNIFORM/2/2/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/-3.6/3.6/2
ObjectTemplate.recoil.zoomModifier 0.25
ObjectTemplate.recoil.goBackOnRecoil 1
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp:SoldierDeviationComp ---
rem Long Barrel 556 Iron Sight Sub Standard Accuracy Assault Rifle
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierDeviationComp
ObjectTemplate.deviation.minDev .25
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setFireDev .7 .7 .012
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setTurnDev 1 .15 .15 .1
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setSpeedDev 1 .007 .007 .008
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setMiscDev 20 20 .15
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModStand 2.2
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModCrouch 2
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModLie 2
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModZoom .4

PKM, undeployed

Code: Select all

rem ---BeginComp:SingleFireComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SingleFireComp
ObjectTemplate.fire.roundsPerMinute 600
ObjectTemplate.fire.addFireRate 2
ObjectTemplate.fire.fireInCameraDof 1
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp :D efaultAmmoComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent DefaultAmmoComp
ObjectTemplate.ammo.ammoType 1
ObjectTemplate.ammo.magSize 100
ObjectTemplate.ammo.nrOfMags 6
ObjectTemplate.ammo.reloadTime 9
ObjectTemplate.ammo.reloadWithoutPlayer 0
ObjectTemplate.ammo.magLinkWeapon rulmg_pkmdeployed
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp:SoldierBasedRecoilComp ---
rem Long Barrel 762 Standard Recoil Assault Rifle
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierBasedRecoilComp
ObjectTemplate.recoil.hasRecoilForce 1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceUp CRD_UNIFORM/7/7/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/-2.4/2.4/1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.zoomModifier 0.25
ObjectTemplate.recoil.goBackOnRecoil 1
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp:SoldierDeviationComp ---
rem Long Barrel 762 Iron Sight Sub Standard Accuracy Assault Rifle
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierDeviationComp
ObjectTemplate.deviation.minDev .25
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setFireDev .7 .7 .012
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setTurnDev 1 .15 .15 .1
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setSpeedDev 1 .007 .007 .008
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setMiscDev 20 20 .15
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModStand 2.2
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModCrouch 2
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModLie 2
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModZoom .4

M249, Deployed

Code: Select all

rem ---BeginComp:SingleFireComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SingleFireComp
ObjectTemplate.fire.roundsPerMinute 900
ObjectTemplate.fire.addFireRate 2
ObjectTemplate.fire.fireInCameraDof 1
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp :D efaultAmmoComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent DefaultAmmoComp
ObjectTemplate.ammo.ammoType 1
ObjectTemplate.ammo.nrOfMags 6
ObjectTemplate.ammo.magSize 100
ObjectTemplate.ammo.reloadTime 9.8
ObjectTemplate.ammo.reloadWithoutPlayer 0
ObjectTemplate.ammo.magLinkWeapon uslmg_m249acog
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp:SoldierBasedRecoilComp ---
rem Long Barrel 556 SAW
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierBasedRecoilComp
ObjectTemplate.recoil.hasRecoilForce 1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceUp CRD_UNIFORM/2/-2/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/-7/7/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.zoomModifier 0.03
ObjectTemplate.recoil.goBackOnRecoil 1
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp:SoldierDeviationComp ---
rem Long Barrel 556 Iron Sight Sub Standard Accuracy Assault Rifle
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierDeviationComp
ObjectTemplate.deviation.minDev .25
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setFireDev .002 .002 .0006
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setTurnDev 2 .15 .15 .05
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setSpeedDev 20 .132 .132 .08
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setMiscDev 20 20 .15
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModStand 0.6
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModCrouch 0.6
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModLie 0.6
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModZoom .4
rem ---EndComp ---

PKM, Deployed

Code: Select all

rem ---BeginComp:SingleFireComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SingleFireComp
ObjectTemplate.fire.roundsPerMinute 600
ObjectTemplate.fire.addFireRate 2
ObjectTemplate.fire.fireInCameraDof 1
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp :D efaultAmmoComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent DefaultAmmoComp
ObjectTemplate.ammo.ammoType 1
ObjectTemplate.ammo.magSize 100
ObjectTemplate.ammo.nrOfMags 6
ObjectTemplate.ammo.reloadTime 9
ObjectTemplate.ammo.reloadWithoutPlayer 0
ObjectTemplate.ammo.magLinkWeapon rulmg_pkm
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp:SoldierBasedRecoilComp ---
rem Long Barrel 762 Standard Recoil Assault Rifle
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierBasedRecoilComp
ObjectTemplate.recoil.hasRecoilForce 1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceUp CRD_UNIFORM/2/-2/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/-7/7/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.zoomModifier 0.05
ObjectTemplate.recoil.goBackOnRecoil 1
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp:SoldierDeviationComp ---
rem Long Barrel 556 Iron Sight Sub Standard Accuracy Assault Rifle
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierDeviationComp
ObjectTemplate.deviation.minDev .25
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setFireDev .002 .002 .0006
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setTurnDev 2 .15 .15 .05
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setSpeedDev 20 .132 .132 .08
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setMiscDev 20 20 .15
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModStand 0.6
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModCrouch 0.6
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModLie 0.6
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModZoom .4

[40mmrain]

haha oh wow.

Their deviation values are the exact same, and deployed their recoil is zero.

so much for the pkm being inaccurate in comparison. 900 vs 600 rpm is totally fair if the pkm has much higher damage

[Psyrus]

haha oh wow.

Their deviation values are the exact same, and deployed their recoil is zero.

so much for the pkm being inaccurate in comparison. 900 vs 600 rpm is totally fair if the pkm has much higher damage

Er deployed [& zoomed, the only way you'd use it] the PKM has 67% more recoil than the SAW. That's not insignificant.

[40mmrain]

Er deployed [& zoomed, the only way you'd use it] the PKM has 67% more recoil than the SAW. That's not insignificant.

True, but theyre both tiny coefficients, 67% more of almost nothing is still almost nothing.

This is going to sound condescending, because i'm basically just saying "you're wrong i'm right", but simply put both of these weapons are nearly identical in accuracy, and the main complaint im seeing is accuracy issues relative to other auto rifleman's weapons. The PKM simply isn't as bad as many are saying.

The reason for this accusation of the pkm being shit, I surmise is that because it usually lacks optics, and with the pseudo-optic tracking your own tracers can be difficulty due to no high mounting, so when facing off against an enemy with something like a negev, or a SAW you're being killed often, not due to the weapon, but lack of optics.

The unconventional factions really shouldnt get optics, and to my knowledge the russians are getting a nice scope for a PKP next patch, right, so problem solved. Perhaps a small buff of RPM to 650 for realism would be better? Also, im aware that the PKM in reality should be more accurate than 5.56 LMGs for sure, however, because there is no auto-rifle, and machine gunner class, just one, they must remain in equilibrium. It would be strange to have one faction with an excellent long range impossible to shoulder fire PKM, and the other with a light, shoulder fire-able, but vastly inferior at range M249.

[Pronck]

I would rather use the Al-Quds and reload 12 times than shooting this crappy thing. It is just not fearful enough as his opponent.

[ShockUnitBlack]

Like I said before, the RPK (along with the AK-47) is really overpowered in PR.

[Eddie Baker]

Perhaps a small buff of RPM to 650 for realism would be better?

If we could have the authentic rates of fire for weapons in this wonderful engine we would have set it at 650 rpm years ago. ROF only works right with factors of 1800 (900, 600, 300, 200, 100, etc.).

[Fandango]

True, but theyre both tiny coefficients, 67% more of almost nothing is still almost nothing.

This makes no sense at all.

From your point, 'tiny coefficient' doesn't make any diffrence. Sadly, it really does. You can call it 'nothing' as you did, thats why numbers shouldn't be the only argument instead of looking in-game/situational effiencity. And reducing it to simple terms like optics, obviously not the solution.

Decreasing recoil should do the trick, accuracy issues might be fixed itself after this.

[Psyrus]

True, but theyre both tiny coefficients, 67% more of almost nothing is still almost nothing.

This is going to sound condescending, because i'm basically just saying "you're wrong i'm right", but simply put both of these weapons are nearly identical in accuracy, and the main complaint im seeing is accuracy issues relative to other auto rifleman's weapons. The PKM simply isn't as bad as many are saying.

You can be as condescending as you like, it's something I'm accused of regularly so I welcome being on the receiving end of it. Unfortunately just saying "you're wrong, I'm right" doesn't make it so. You asked for the hard numbers on the PKM, and the numbers and math dictate that as a ratio, the PKM has over 50% more recoil spread than the M249, as well as a lower ROF... in fact the ROF of the M249 is also 50% greater than the PKM's.

I'm not sure if the recoil thing is purely visual, but I don't think so (or at least hope not). Thus, with a higher spread of rounds [>50%], coming down range less often [<50%], the PKM is at a significant disadvantage. Put numerically, the PKM is at a ~29% disadvantage compared to other ARs if measured in categories of [ROF, Dev, Recoil] and if my math isn't wrong.

If you consider close to 1/3 disadvantaged insignificant, then I'd say your condescension may be somewhat misplaced. You may argue that the 7.62 ammo should come into play, and I could understand that POV, however the vast majority of complaints in the thread have focused on accuracy/perceived lack thereof, and as such what happens when you actually manage to score a lucky hit becomes more of a side-note, imo.

[40mmrain]

If we could have the authentic rates of fire for weapons in this wonderful engine we would have set it at 650 rpm years ago. ROF only works right with factors of 1800 (900, 600, 300, 200, 100, etc.).

I keep forgetting about this, god damn it.


Anyways, I figure the best conclusion we can come to here is to bump down the zoom multiplier value a little bit if enough people can agree that the deployed recoil is too high. I dont agree with it, but I mean, at this point there's really no way to quantify which weapon is better than the other unless we devise to incredibly intricate mathematical formula, so there's no point in arguing if this many people think it's that shit.

Like 0.03 instead of 0.05 then?

[Murphy]

So it seems the recoil is the killer on the PKM, and I'm not entirely surprised as you can only really land hits with really short bursts/single shots with that beast, not to mention the recoil values undermine the weapons lethality at further ranges. I guess it's the rate of fire combined with the recoil that put many people off, I'm fairly sure the MG3 has substantially more recoil then the m249 but it has that insane RoF to make up for it.

[billysmall44]

I think its just personal preference because to be honest I LOVE the PKM , yet I cannot stand the negev. Just because I dont like the negev im not saying it should be buffed or removed, because I realize that I just suck with it.

If you don't like, it don't use it.

[godfather_596]

I find the PKM a disaster. I also find it wrong to argue about PKM vs SAW face to face which is not what either users should concentrate on. I for one find the PKM extremely annoying to aim with whereas SAW is way easier. Even if the numbers fail to indicate something significant it still feels like shit. It might not be the recoil as is but a poor animation that blocks view and makes it difficult to compensate for the recoil. A decent scope is also a MUST for the PKM but luckily it is coming for the PKP.