Eliteism

[FuzzySquirrel]

Am I the only person that thinks a fair share of the community are now acting like elitist ******** for no reason?

After reading that mumble thread you'd have to be crazy not to see it. The responses the "believers" in mumble were giving were like an Atheist vs Christian. It was rediculous, no matter why someone didn't use mumble it was automatically their fault and nothing was logical even though I saw several reasons why some people didn't/couldn't use it. (tbh, mumble is okay, servers that enforce it generally don't have the player base to make the best of it though)

I've been playing PR for a long time (not as long as some, but quite a while) and as of late the community has honestly not impressed me. Before people would embrace new-comers and teach them, now it seems like 90% of the responses to people that don't like something is "zomg y u noob leave PR we dont want u"

That response seems almost typical and honestly, It makes you look like an ******* and face the facts, You are not better than anyone else on the internet, Doesn't matter how long you've used a computer, how many E-friends you have, how big your E-penis is, or how long you've played PR, In the end you're both sitting behind a computer, playing a game.

So yea, Kinda a rant but also a query, am I the only person who sees this?

ps, don't turn this into a mumbleisgreaterthanlife thread.

[Nebsif]

First!!
Elitaizm, yas.

Srsly now, I always kicked or told friends to get rid of newbies in le sq, hatersgonnahate.
Not using mumble is stupid, either ure (not OP) lazy stupid or a hipster who thinks himself cool for not using it coz its mainstream.

..no I didn't rly read op

[Brainlaag]

I fully agree with you. Fact is many old players (like myself) have grown sick of the ignorance shown by newcomers. Back in the day, when I started playing PR in 0.3 I was like "Be quiet and listen to the guy thats telling you what to do". Although I have to admit that back then the leap between vanilla and PR wasn't all too big and not even VOIP was a requirement and I somewhat understand the frustration of being "new" to PR at this stage. Nonetheless did the players (mainly the DEVs) embrace newcomers with all kindness heart (If I'm not mistaken it was DrRank that got me into the whole using mic thing). One of the reasons might have been that the mod was rather new and there were still struggles to get servers populated but still, they had time to show you everything and explain you stuff.

I learned from them and applied all this knowledge to help out green guys. But now the influx of people that don't have the right mindset right off the start is tremendous. I've stumbled upon more griefers, smartasses, turds, etc. in the last year than in the whole 6 years before that. And although I give my best, I know I've turned into an elitist *******, who doesn't give new guys a break at all even if they have the potential to become better players than I am. However I'm trying to control myself and still give my best to teach new players and not be part of the problem.

It seems like that as soon something turns mainstream, it becomes bad, it attracts bad players, older players get deeply annoyed and frustrated by it and before you even become aware of it, the whole community has gone down the hill. The more player are avialabe and the bigger the mod becomes, the less quality is present and gameplay drops to lower leves.

[Bringerof_D]

to be perfectly honest the only excuses i find reasonable for not using mumble are the following:

a) Player is completely inept with computer technology
Solution: next PR release will have it integrated i believe

b) Lack of Bandwidth due to shitty service provider
Solution: None, some people have only one choice for ISP and for them things suck.

c) You dont feel mumble brings anything to PR and simply dont want to use it.
Solution: Dont play on a mumble enforced server. during peak times i usually see about 2 non mumble servers running with high numbers.



the following is not acceptable:

"My computer cannot handle running multiple programs"

You should only be running 1 program when you normally play an online game, that is the game and nothing else should be on. With mumble that makes 2. If you cannot run 2 programs simultaneously, especially one that's intended for use parallel to another, you NEED to upgrade.

[Brainlaag]

^ He clearly said don't start a discussion about Mumble, are you blind, or simply that ignorant? Let it be and contribute to the discussion otherwise.

[Psyko]

Well the experienced players who have been playing for years kind of get bored and stop playing. the ones who are left behind have already thought a few generations of players, and expect those players to teach the new players. But they dont, they just whore assets and with each new generation they get dummer.

it could also be that with the expanding population, there's an expanding internal margin of players who CBA.

I remember a time when the admins went out of their way to show people how to play properly.

[A.Wickens]

I am an Elitist, but not regards mumble.

I don't tolerate racists, idiots, griefers, immature players, haters, juvenile 'Experts' on the game that couldn't display any form of realistic tactics in a functional manner, game exploiters etc.

If the community spent more time excluding these type of players, and the rest of it educating new players then you would see growth. Instead every thread devolves into LOL bs and name calling. Mumble is a great tool so encourage its use, don't kick someone who isn't using it. Show them why it is beneficial to use it.

Those that use mumble every time they play, use it correctly. Cut the pointless spam and music that drags Mumble's name through the mud and reinforces the now dated perception of it and its users.

If you want a mature community that will attract new players the first thing you have to do is conduct yourself in a mature manner, the second is not kick players the second they join your squad because they aren't using mumble.

Seriously using Mumble isn't a guarantee of mature, tactical play, it's a tool that facilitates coordination. I have heard just as much garbage, if not more, over Mumble as I have over squad chat.

Demonstrate the advantages of Mumble to get people to use. Act maturely, play tactically, demonstrate teamwork, be open to new players etc if you want to attract them and get them invested.

The alternative is turning PR:Bf into a very small club that slowly withers.

Edit: I use the handling of the 'Mumble' debate as an example as it is clearly symptomatic of many other issues in the community.

[=HCM= Shwedor]

You forgot c.

c. A bunch of tards repeatedly spam mumble with non-gameplay related **** while ingame, and only 2/64 players actually use it to enhance gameplay. Between maps people make retarded animal noises, play annoying music, and talk about the alcohol they are consuming at that particular time and I really DON'T care.

If I want to play with people who are serious about using a 3rd party VOIP program for the sole purpose of talking about ingame tactics/strategy/logistics/etc. I will utilize TS3. Usually people use mumble for completely non-gameplay related stuff that generally pisses me off and makes it harder to hear footsteps/engine noise/gunfire/etc. which means --> less immersion in the game/less situational awareness. Good TS3 users keep messages brief and to the point, unlike most mumble users. The people who tend to take the time to go to our forums and retrieve our TS3 info and join us on TS3 tend to be the better players around, not just the mumble users who "heard it through the grapevine" that mumble somehow makes you instantly into a beast player and better than the rest.

What is the point of a VOIP program where the only people you can hear are 50m away? If they are that close I don't need them to tell me there is an enemy next to me, I can hear the enemy myself if they would stfu! This is why I bought a $150 sound setup! What I want is a VOIP program where I can communicate with other SL's who are 1000m away, because I am always planning as a SL on the larger scale. Where will I move my squad so that they can be used in conjunction with other squads to assault an important objective and rapidly move to the next objective? Doing this is made easier by getting ALL the intel I can possibly get, not just what the other squad leaders thinks is relevant for me to know and worthy of being passed on, but what EVERY shooter in EVERY squad sees. I like to have a 360 degree knowledge of the battlespace. I want to know where every HAT, sniper, AA, etc. is located and you simply can't do that using mumble. You either hear the guys directly next to you, which is most of the time useless as you have ingame VOIP built in, or you hear ONLY the SL that is 1000m away and what he wants you to hear.


Has the PR community become elitist? Sure, but with due reason. How many actually "new" players do we see 6+ years after BF2 was released? Not many. Most of the time the idiots who go around crashing helicopters into tanks are just that, idiots. And they for the most part need to be removed.

[A.Wickens]

re Brainlaags' comments. The new players are not the issue. New players are always the same, they have no experience of the mod. The existing playerbase is the issue, plain and simple. They set the tone, they are the 'welcome' that new players get. They are the ones that have the choice to educate, explain and teach new players.

If a new player isn't able to learn the first place you should look is the teacher.

[A.Wickens]

Re: Schwedor's comments.

Again, the issues isn't mumble the game or anything else. It's the attitude of a significant number of the existing playerbase. Your post is clearly evident of that.

[Brainlaag]

re Brainlaags' comments. The new players are not the issue. New players are always the same, they have no experience of the mod. The existing playerbase is the issue, plain and simple. They set the tone, they are the 'welcome' that new players get. They are the ones that have the choice to educate, explain and teach new players.

If a new player isn't able to learn the first place you should look is the teacher.

I have taken initiative in and outside of pre-planned and organized training sessions to teach new players stuff. From the moment someone tells you "Fuck off you ****" after you explained him why he shouldn't take a specific kit or vehicle and TKs after you warned him through chat not to fly a helicopter, because of the difficultly and importance of the asset, I don't see any potential in such individuals and stamp them off as "not adequate".

If you deny that the amount of "that" kind of new players hasn't risen, then you haven't been around for a while. There is a major difference between a "noob" and a "newbie".

[=HCM= Shwedor]

This mod is a breeding ground for discontent the way it is setup right now. The experienced players have the benefit of knowing things such as what unknown caches you SHOULD spawn on and which ones you shouldn't. Sometimes it is beneficial to spawn on an unknown if it is easily discoverable, such as the caches that spawn old US main on Karbala because that is ALWAYS where the US forces will check first. Sometimes it can totally wreck your team if some new, first time player decides to go Rambo and spawn on the very well hidden unknown cache in the cave and starts shooting the ceiling to see what the gun sounds like. The MENTALITY of the new players is what matters, will they decide to use common sense and stick near the experienced SL while learning or take off with a sniper and go for a high KDR? Will they watch the SL's every move and learn his tactics or wander off into the boondocks hundreds of meters from a cappable flag?


"TKs after you warned him through chat not to fly a helicopter, because of the difficultly and importance of the asset, I don't see any potential in such individuals and stamp them off as "not adequate.""

^^ This is my line of thinking as well. Also in regard to server rules about asset claiming. Total disregard for rules is an almost immediate removal.

[A.Wickens]

Those players, who act in the manner you describe, should clearly be shown the door. However, ask yourself this, does that conduct look massively out of place when contrasted with some people's conduct on these very forums?

[Brainlaag]

Those players, who act in the manner you describe, should clearly be shown the door. However, ask yourself this, does that conduct look massively out of place when contrasted with some people's conduct on these very forums?

I see your point and have to partially agree with it.

This mod is a breeding ground for discontent the way it is setup right now. The experienced players have the benefit of knowing things such as what unknown caches you SHOULD spawn on and which ones you shouldn't. Sometimes it is beneficial to spawn on an unknown if it is easily discoverable, such as the caches that spawn old US main on Karbala because that is ALWAYS where the US forces will check first. Sometimes it can totally wreck your team if some new, first time player decides to go Rambo and spawn on the very well hidden unknown cache in the cave and start shooting the ceiling to see what the gun sounds like. The MENTALITY of the new players is what matters, will they decide to use common sense and stick near the experienced SL while learning or take off with a sniper and go for a high KDR? Will the watch the SL's every move and learn his tactics or wander off into the boondocks hundreds of meters from a cappable flag?

You have to draw a line here however. The example I've presented was to showcase how players refuse to collaborate and don't want become part of the community and as such should get filtered out. Their only goal is to ruin others experience. Your example was plain elitism, overreacting over a players misinformation. The "guy" you took as example simply didn't know. He wasn't ignorant, nor aggressive and abusive but only did what he was used from other games. As said, there is a major difference between new guys, who are willing to learn but simply don't know how things roll and people that do not bother and only play to grief and troll.

[Bringerof_D]

^ He clearly said don't start a discussion about Mumble, are you blind, or simply that ignorant? Let it be and contribute to the discussion otherwise.

i read that and i understood clearly, however his main example was the mumble thread, i was merely attempting to show that it's not really elitism if they are valid points.

elitism is saying "only noobs don't use mumble" or something along those lines.

if you're presenting valid points and actually pointing out valid solutions for those who "cannot" is not elitism. Shouting elitism has become the new "Hitler phenomenon" if you ask me.

the Op has a valid point some users here are elitist, but for the majority of posts being called on it are not.

@shwedor: Mumble does let you communicate with people across the map. the local talk is useful because no you can't hear that one guy sneaking up on you from the side. The only situation where you can is if you're a) alone or b) nobody on your team is moving, shooting, or things exploding.

i'll take your point on the useless music and noise but thats a server admin problem

[=HCM= Shwedor]

As an admin it is often very hard to distinguish between people who are attempting to a. cheat b. learn the game. A tactic we have noticed of some ghosters via battlerecorder viewing is that one player on insurgent team will sit on an unknown cache and do nothing but shoot RPG's/PKM into the air while the BLUFOR guy simply listens and watches. We are often left with little choice but to kick someone who is simply firing RPG's into the air for the sake of firing RPG's whilst on the unknown cache because we have no way of telling whether or not they are doing it for cheating purposes or simply because they are ignorant and ignoring admin messages. Often new people rejoin and say they didn't see the green text in bold letters at the top of the screen, and it is often hard to pay attention to the messages. This may not be the best example to use, but there are plenty of others. And I can ALWAYS hear the enemy close to me , Creative X-fi Go Pro on ultra with $110 headset allows me to hear everything on the map, I can hear the enemy APC's starting up in their main from the carrier in Jabal with helis spinning all around me. I can hear the enemy walking in their mainbase on Kashan from my mainbase pretty much, my sound is that good.

[SGT.MARCO]

You forgot c.

c. A bunch of tards repeatedly spam mumble with non-gameplay related **** while ingame, and only 2/64 players actually use it to enhance gameplay. Between maps people make retarded animal noises, play annoying music, and talk about the alcohol they are consuming at that particular time and I really DON'T care.

If I want to play with people who are serious about using a 3rd party VOIP program for the sole purpose of talking about ingame tactics/strategy/logistics/etc. I will utilize TS3. Usually people use mumble for completely non-gameplay related stuff that generally pisses me off and makes it harder to hear footsteps/engine noise/gunfire/etc. which means --> less immersion in the game/less situational awareness. Good TS3 users keep messages brief and to the point, unlike most mumble users. The people who tend to take the time to go to our forums and retrieve our TS3 info and join us on TS3 tend to be the better players around, not just the mumble users who "heard it through the grapevine" that mumble somehow makes you instantly into a beast player and better than the rest.

What is the point of a VOIP program where the only people you can hear are 50m away? If they are that close I don't need them to tell me there is an enemy next to me, I can hear the enemy myself if they would stfu! This is why I bought a $150 sound setup! What I want is a VOIP program where I can communicate with other SL's who are 1000m away, because I am always planning as a SL on the larger scale. Where will I move my squad so that they can be used in conjunction with other squads to assault an important objective and rapidly move to the next objective? Doing this is made easier by getting ALL the intel I can possibly get, not just what the other squad leaders thinks is relevant for me to know and worthy of being passed on, but what EVERY shooter in EVERY squad sees. I like to have a 360 degree knowledge of the battlespace. I want to know where every HAT, sniper, AA, etc. is located and you simply can't do that using mumble. You either hear the guys directly next to you, which is most of the time useless as you have ingame VOIP built in, or you hear ONLY the SL that is 1000m away and what he wants you to hear.


Has the PR community become elitist? Sure, but with due reason. How many actually "new" players do we see 6+ years after BF2 was released? Not many. Most of the time the idiots who go around crashing helicopters into tanks are just that, idiots. And they for the most part need to be removed.

Mumble is more than just enemy around this corner. all chat should be disregarded between maps, i simply mute mumble until I am in game. imagine in real life you were attacking an objective but only speak to 6 other people. It wouldn't benefit the guy who says "you flank around this way" or "don't shoot until I say" It is so much easier and quicker to talk to people rather than trying to squeeze I paragraph into a 1/2 second time frame. Mumble is definitely more realistic.

[SGT.Ice]

First!!
Elitaizm, yas.

Srsly now, I always kicked or told friends to get rid of newbies in le sq, hatersgonnahate.
Not using mumble is stupid, either ure (not OP) lazy stupid or a hipster who thinks himself cool for not using it coz its mainstream.

..no I didn't rly read op

IF you didn't read OP & you're not planning to contribute, why are you here?

The real problem aside from elitism in my opinion is a failure to communicate. If they won't reply to text, Mumble, VOIP. The last think I can do is Report them. If they aren't willing to listen i'm not willing to give my time.

When people are willing to listen/communicate, i'm more than willing & often love to teach. But as cougar puts it below that's about how I feel. If they're mature & if they at least communicate via text/VOIP i'll probably keep them, skill dosen't really matter I Just like to fill my squad with people I can teach. I've been called a noob because I don't like closed events. While I would rather pub & teach, guess that's the definition of a noob.

[Portable.Cougar]

We have had great stories of turning undesirable new players into community members and well rounded players.

New people are just that, new.

They don't have good or bad habits. Its up to us as teachers to show them the right path.

I have unlimited patience for new players. I will show them the in and outs all while taking incoming fire.

I do not have patience for older players who should know better.

I no longer have a "home" server. Because of this I am having a hard time deciding who is new and who just does not care. Everyone gets the benefit of the doubt with me.

Prove you want to try and we can slug it out with the enemy.

Prove you have the maturity of a high school Jr and I will show you the door.

I guess that makes me an elitist.

sent from the phone using magic

[mp50967]

Creative X-fi Go Pro on ultra with $110 headset allows me to hear everything on the map, I can hear the enemy APC's starting up in their main from the carrier in Jabal with helis spinning all around me. I can hear the enemy walking in their mainbase on Kashan from my mainbase pretty much, my sound is that good.

Since you like bragging about your headset, I felt it necessary to inform you that a $100 head set or set of speakers is bottom of the barrel. I'm guessing you're also the type of person who thinks bose is amazing. look at some of Klipsch's or Sennheisers $400 headphones or $4000 subwoofers and you'll hear good audio.

EDIT: User infracted for off-topic post. Let's let the off-topic end here. - Darkcloak