Remove the kill counter?

[Stealthgato]

Agree Kain, the best is to delay the kills and score by 10 minutes and make every player on enemy team on the scoreboard not fade out when they die.

[Orford]

Being able to magically check status of guys you just hit is not tactical at all. It's just cheap, gimmicky way to check who are you fighting with, who is remaining, are they reviving, etc.
I don't agree with you on the second point either - I don't see anything wrong playing for kills. Of course there has to be priority, but scoring kills may not only be enjoying, it's most of times helpful for team and it's a way to achieve victory.

And thanks for tip about stopping to be so self destructive. xD Will again state the obvious - kill counter DOESN'T have to be removed. It should be tweaked, there are many way and compromises you can do that/ Many not hrmful for people who care about seeing their kills.

Check this post:

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... ost1780472

I was refering to change for change sake and the questions in the poll, should it be removed yes/no. I would say no, thats my point.

Now if i wanted to discuss the other questions, how to change it, delay it, fade it out. I'd have to say whats the point. If its made to do some thing diffrent other then tell you if the guy you just shot has respawned or delay giving you that info then theres no point it in being there.


If I had to chose between no kill count until the end of the round or a delayed kill count, I would say no kill count and that would be counter productive as the players who like the kill count and enjoy looking at the kills tot up will just stop playing as they get no enjoyment or there enjoyment is reduced thus leading to another nail in the coffin of them coming to play PR.

So i refer you back to my point, why change whats not broken, adjusting some thing that has no bearing on YOUR GAME just because YOU dont like hearing "yeh i got 10 kills" at the end of the round. I suggest you spent more time setting a key bind for Muting mumble then spending time taking away other peoples enjoyment of the game.

Cheep and low tactic, use all the tools you have farely and in the same way every one else can with out breaking rules or being seen to bend the game engine/exploite. Seams dumb to me not to use the kill count to confirm if the sniper is dead or waiting for a medic.

[UTurista]

I think everyone agrees on the server rules no road-killing, mainly because the engine cant handle well those kind of physics.

Kill counter in PR its the same thing, PR cant properly handle the hit boxes of wounded or dead, you can clearly headshot a guy or IED him and he can still be revive which is kind of annoying, but with the K/D we can determinate if the player is dead or no, or in other word if we go'na have zombies or not.

**Example**
I clearly Headshot a guy, I should move on because that threat is down.

**W/ killcounter**
I confirm I have a kill, I move on.
I dont have a kill I know I'll have a zombie; time to wait for the revives.
**W/o killcounter**
I have to wait 5m to make sure he will be dead dead.

[Kain888]

Agree Kain, the best is to delay the kills and score by 10 minutes and make every player on enemy team on the scoreboard not fade out when they die.

Yeh. There are many ways to disable the magical intel, more or less drastic. First of all, like other said and Moon elaborated - graying enemy score chat is the best to do to disable the gameplay and immersion breaking factor that allows for checking in real time your enemy status - "there are still two more of that clan, wait with reviving!". It's a bit like having a radar sometimes when you are experienced in PR. This is additionally making the game less appealing for newcomers IMO, especially that they won't use that trick everybody uses here.

Mats was working on something like that - https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388-p ... score.html

About kill count - like many, many posted, there is several ways to approach this issue and many of them would make most people happy:

1) Delaying refreshing of score chart and/or making it at fixed intervals. That way you don't know if they gave up (and spawned) earlier or just now. It still allows for learning mechanics and exploiting it like current system but it's far more complicated to keep track than pressing TAB for split of second each 10-15 sec like we do have now. Yet it gives kills and people are happy. It may be though disorientating for new players, but it's already similar to current system more than to vanilla one.

2) More vanilla style (iirc) - just give kills for wounded players. It's not game breaking, you still need to check if enemy is dead-dead or not and it makes people who play for kills happy. IMO it's good solution. Basically when you wounded someone it adds to your score so the only magical intel you get by this solution is when somebody bleed to death or you were not sure you hit.

3) Removing kill counter whatsoever or posting it at the end of round - my favorite, but would be hated by many I guess. ^^

There also were more insightful and good points posted in this thread I guess, but I think these are worth considering.

I was refering to change for change sake and the questions in the poll, should it be removed yes/no. I would say no, thats my point.

I'm not saying you have no right to express your points and I respect it. I just doesn't agree that's it's tactical to see numbers out of nowhere. I would prefer in game called Project Reality to rely on teamwork provided intel - not TAB provided one. ^^ So as you can already see it's not change for the sake of change, it has some valid points behind it brought by many people in this thread. Both sides of course have valid points, hence the discussion ;]

Now if i wanted to discuss the other questions, how to change it, delay it, fade it out. I'd have to say whats the point. If its made to do some thing diffrent other then tell you if the guy you just shot has respawned or delay giving you that info then theres no point it in being there.

There is point. Brought by many in this topic. Many factors and reasons have been posted, including, but not limited to: fun, immersion, tactical aspect, teamwork, realism, gameplay issues. I won't talk about them here, because on almost every page of this topic there are people who are have been bringing these points.

If I had to chose between no kill count until the end of the round or a delayed kill count, I would say no kill count and that would be counter productive as the players who like the kill count and enjoy looking at the kills tot up will just stop playing as they get no enjoyment or there enjoyment is reduced thus leading to another nail in the coffin of them coming to play PR.

First of all you can't really state it's against players not having any data about that fact, it's just not fair. Also counter productive is not really a matter here. Delayed reward is the best of reward for most people (we need to remember about individual differences), especially to fight with boredom. You see, repetitive gameplay and quick feedback is what is bad for modern games so they need to release new content every few months, on the other hand we have PR with rare as hell updates and people still play it, some for years not getting bored like they would with other games.

Also only 30% of this poll says that they want to keep the kill counter in current system. So maybe it's not bad idea to experiment with it a bit?

Also stating PR players get most of their enjoyment from kills is imo not valid. PR playerbase is different than most of other games, so I doubt it's, as you stated, a nail. If going by this logic we should bring back stats and unlocks because that would help to keep players motivated.

So i refer you back to my point, why change whats not broken, adjusting some thing that has no bearing on YOUR GAME just because YOU dont like hearing "yeh i got 10 kills" at the end of the round. I suggest you spent more time setting a key bind for Muting mumble then spending time taking away other peoples enjoyment of the game.

Thanks again for tips regarding what should or shouldn't I do in my life. But moving back to discussion. Not changing something that is not broken may be cool idiom but is stupid in it's deep understanding, the progress is made by changing things and improving them. That's how world is spinning.

And as I've expressed earlier I don't suggest removing kill counter, even if that what may suit me. Just removing magic intel is the best way to bring new players to game and put back some immersion. You need to remember that the "fun" you are waving like a flag is way too subjective to take it all for your purposes in discussion. I can ask you the same thing - why do you want to take enjoyment from others game if it's not hurting your gameplay?

I remember playing the game few years ago when I was actually asking and checking if I scored the kill. We, in squad, were making sure we killed and secured position by actually checking it and relying on intel. Then we just figured how mechanic works (and that it wasn't like it was described in manual) and why do such thing now? You basically play with TAB on, because you know enemy does the same thing and if he doesn't then it means he is new to the game and will probably soon leave it after having hard times figuring on how game actually works. ;]

That's my point, Orford - let's not kill Project Reality, it doesn't deserve it.

[Orford]

Im glad to have a disscusion on this, just to clear up I said "I would say no kill count and that would be counter productive as the players who like the kill count and enjoy looking at the kills tot.... " I didnt say all players play for kills.

I play the way you mentioned, covering, counter attacks, probing, ambush. I just use the kill count as a tool to help keep my squad safe.

As ive said in another thread its not all about the kills and its not all about the WIN. Im just trying to put across to the people who have that opinion (hence I used YOUR and YOU in general term, not you by name directly.) of the kill counter is distracting form THEIR game play. If you remove it "you" are in balance taking away more then you are trying to give.

The poll in this forum is just for the users of this forum and we know the spread of player types that use this forum lean towards the more advanced player, that isnt the norm of the player population as a whole. So granted the outcome of this poll may reflect the wishes of this forum user base, will it add any thing to the day to day player of PR or take away more.

Either way things have been added and things have been taken away with every version of PR, this time we get a conversation and add some weight rather than any thing being forced on us.

What ever happens in the same way I have done with every version of PR, I will adapt and continue playing. I just wanted to express a view that brings balance to the discussion, remvong the kill count has no direct effect on those that want it removed but has a negative effect on those that use it and get either help (gameplay) or enjoyment from it. Using the exagerated argument that players go round holding down the TAB key, spoils "YOUR" game is silly and obsured and how its "not Fair". I dont see how its not fair if its available to every one, learn to use it. Not fair would be removing an aspect of the MOD that some users get enjoyment from and use it to improve the gameplay they have. Are we not trying to improve PR for more people and not reduce it. How would you know who does this and when they are doing it, what effect do you feel when some other player press's TAB.


Kill count has been there from the begining, if it wasnt and this was a discussion about whether it should be added. I would say NO for all the reasons that have been mentioned here for removing it. Though This is about removing it, thats counter productive as there would be more dissapointment from players as a whole then there would be for removing it.
Therefore I feel it would be detramental to PR in the whole to remove it or changing it.

Have a nice day, thanks for the conversation,. Sorry about the spellings.

[Beav]

Now that I have finally posted enough to chime in here.

Is it possible to make this a server side option? This way the server admin has the choice to enable the kill count or not.

[LK1]

i dont see many players playing for the kills in pr.... i dont feel the problem.

[SGT.Ice]

I think everyone agrees on the server rules no road-killing, mainly because the engine cant handle well those kind of physics.

Don't try and speak for everyone when their consent is not given.

[doop-de-doo]

I think everyone agrees on the server rules no road-killing, mainly because the engine cant handle well those kind of physics.

Wrong thread?

IMO, the poll speaks for itself.

[SShadowFox]

It's better to, sometimes the kill count, sometimes no, because IRL you won't know if you killed the target every time you hit someone.

[Murphy]

But you can be pretty damn sure the guy who just got shot won't be much of a problem anymore either way.

[SShadowFox]

Much snipers and soldiers count their kills but sometimes officially they have much less kills than they count.

[maniac1031]

It's better to, sometimes the kill count, sometimes no, because IRL you won't know if you killed the target every time you hit someone.

Oh I didn't realize that IRL when I shoot some one square in the face with an m14 that a medic will be able to patch him up so he can return fire back at me after I "thought" I killed him 5 mins ago.

[Garmax]

The only reason I use the kill counter is to confirm kills, I don't think it should be fully removed but somehow adjusted so people don't just play for kills I'm also guilty of that during a couple rounds

[Megagoth1702]

It's more realistic but PR wants the perfect balance between gameplay and realism and this is definatively a great gameplay mechanic that in my opinion should be kept.

[crokojot]

Remove counting kills and remove possibillity to heal people that are killed in head ... if 1 man find him self totally alone and he kills 2 enemy squads,starting to fight with third squad he will die but at least 6 dead victims will revive...I m for medics and reviving if there is possibility but dying from lat in head ,grenade near your body,shoot in head or 10 bullets in chest.....Once it was funny...i was alive after finding myself in middle of JDAM attack....End it was luck ...hiding myself near some wall....i didnt died but i was pretty bad wounded...this things can happen....but lat in head.....only Dr. Frankenstein could put up all pieces....

[PFunk]

Kill counters serve a purpose. Its not arma, its not realism to any credible degree in this game. Its a conceit that plays into the existing balance. You're not going to magically change the community by getting rid of their kill counters.

For a CO or just an SL they can more readily guess at the enemy situation on tickets or see which squads are flounderings or which are kicking ***. If a CO sees the Cobra isn't getting any kills on 3 deaths then the ticket battle is considered.

Frankly given the conceit of the whole ticket game itself being so utterly unrealistic we can't take the score board out since its directly driven by it. KDRs are key to understanding the flow in a game where you're not going to get an estimated and confirmed kill count from pub squads, even if you can get them to talk back at you.

Arma is better for this cause its slower, more methodical, so gathering kill counts is more deliberate. Pace in PR really favors looking at the metagame at a glance.

Frankly I think the metagame as it is works fine. Its not a part of why PR has been less fun lately, and in fact these arbitrary alterations are the kinds of things taht slowly push us into a blind half-realized arma-esque game that we dont want cause we could just go play arma instead.

In a game that revolves around depleting tickets as the core win condition the meta game is essential and handicapping the intel on it doesn't improve the game, it just makes it more likley that you'll waste tickets on a play that you would otherwise know is not worth it in the greater scheme.

No kill count means you basically are visually divorced from the ticket battle, only able to see your reserve pool which is meaningless without knowing roughly what the enemy's is at.

[crokojot]

"Its not a part of why PR has been less fun lately"
****************************************************************************

After 6 years i didnt saw better game this type. We can try some other game type or game but we always return to PR.
Newbies still coming and find this game very atractive,but they dont read too much about it so rest off people doesnt have nervs or time to learn them something....Problem is that most people still dont use mumble,you can be wounded and ask medics for help but they just passed near by and dont use that medic kits like they should....
Just give us few new desert,city and wood maps....so we can play another 6 years...

[USMC scout sniper]

I honestly think seeing your kills kinda make the game more fun and creative. Like a competition. Everyone wants to get more kills than the other guy so they're even more determined to win and in the process get a lot of kills and feel proud of yourself.

[SShadowFox]

Yes, I voted no, but Scout Sniper is right, but make that the medic can't revive when you got shot in the head, is fucking annoying and frustrating when you shot someone in the head then the medic throw fucking smoke and revive, when they try to do so without smoke I have pretty fun because I wait until he uses the epipen then I shot both with one bullet.