TART - What was wrong?

[CopyCat]

I still agree with Onil, He clarified 3 times now in 3 posts about his idea - and by god damn if you don't see logic and sense in that guys. Pfunk is also right, start with small number (constantly possible to grow) and aim for dedication and you'll get fantastic quality. If TART starts this season with same mentality "We're so awesome tournament that will fire up massive battles that you have never seen before", trust me - you're losing me right there, and I bet my sorry *** shitty reputation on that most CATA members will say/think the same.

Start the tournament with 32vs32, you'll get the sign-ups so full you'll be panicking what to do with all that, but with patience and good observation and administration you'll put all pieces in place and TART will grow from something small to something very big (That's how PRT started, hell.. even PR itself).

/CC

[Pesticide]

screw all the small approach elitism.. make it open for all, fill up the ranks on the spot with a public password, have a predetermined commander and a couple handpicked squadleaders who can kick/ban if people dont listen to sqls. Give everyone a chance to enjoy it and become a better pr player and great bands and relations will grow. A battle every week.

Possibly a map twice to really get to know the maps and learn from mistakes, switching sides and if its a draw a skirmish decider.

[CopyCat]

Pesticide if you want that, participate in PRTA events and just random public gaming on PRTA. Tournament is much higher level then that, and if you never participated? how legit is your knowledge and experience to this matter ?!

[Wicca]

I see onils argument, but i think we will only use that as an alternative solution down the line.

[Onil]

If you don't start the tournament already with such a setup and high quality definition, you are certainly not going to be able to get it to work further down the line.

Focus on getting the teams filled with skilled and dedicated players from the start, on a good enough number so that you can play 32 vs 32 (or 40). Anyone not filling the requirements should not be included in the teams but can signup at a later stage as reserve.

Else, you will be organizing a "tournament" that will be nothing more than a regular event with limited quality as you usually get in any password night event. And that's not what most tournament players are looking for.

[Wicca]

If you don't start the tournament already with such a setup and high quality definition, you are certainly not going to be able to get it to work further down the line.

Focus on getting the teams filled with skilled and dedicated players from the start, on a good enough number so that you can play 32 vs 32 (or 40). Anyone not filling the requirements should not be included in the teams but can signup at a later stage as reserve.

Else, you will be organizing a "tournament" that will be nothing more than a regular event with limited quality as you usually get in any password night event. And that's not what most tournament players are looking for.

Of course the tournament should have the highest quality ambitions. Not to mention the biggest groups of players to take from. But I think I have more experience in organizing this than you. All you are doing is throwing the same idea at me, with no practical experience whatsoever.

I am declining it. Stop pushing it so much, come with other suggestions.

[Pesticide]

what does wicca want, is the question at hand, you want 'tournament players' who seem to ***** and moan at every little hurdle in front of them, pointing fingers at everyone else if something goes wrong (that was my opinion on what happened in tart with the most vocal guys pointing fingers all over the place) or a healthy mix of casuals and vets who still see the fun in a decent match and will thank the guys in charge after every battle for the good time they had.

I think that is what wicca needs to make up his own mind about. I obviously choose the latter. Having a good time, following orders of a sl who is in contact with a commander who have spent a little time before the battle making plans. I wouldnt want people spending hours on strategies and tactics and theories.

People get burned out real fast if you go to hardcore/elite. Seen it in tart, prt , fh, fh2, every bf and bf2 tournament ive played in. People will grow during the tournament without trainings with the right mindset. A complete beginner can become a great medic in just a few battles. People should focus on fun, and take off the serious pants. its a game youre supposed to enjoy. And i dont know many people who still enjoy trainings week after week after week. Copycat, maybe you do know these 200 people that would like and enjoy that, but where the fuck where those people then during tart trainings i wonder? Take my opinion for what it is. Don't try to make your opinion look better by trying to discredit mine cause that just undermines yours.

If the top structure is solid, the lams will follow the lions

[Onil]

Wicca, yes you do have more experience in starting PR projects, and usually passing them on for someone else to continue and manage. But should I remind you of what your argument was when you tried to invite me to be an admin in TART? Or how many projects were a fiasco?

I'm not trying to force you to use my idea... I couldn't care less if you use reserves or not. I do however care if TART will provide the same gaming quality that PRT did or if it will be a public like event.

My whole point is that you need to choose between quality and quantity and between serious gaming and relaxed gaming. Some of us do enjoy the hard training and proper improvement instead of a 10 minute brief before a tournament battle. Have you even considered why teams have been unbalanced (not talking about numbers) in multiple campaigns? It's all about the players and chain of command mindset of how to play the game properly.

Where were those serious guys during TART? Well... most didn't join because they didn't take TART serious and the few that did join, ended up leaving due to the huge amount of undisciplined and inactive players that stormed the tournament simply because they were curious or bored.

I rest my case... do as you will.

[Wicca]

TART Season 3 - The Return of the War. | TART - Teamwork and Reality Tournament

Onil, if the tournament is a Quality place or not, comes down to many peoples oppinion. Not only yours, we cant just cater to you. But to what the players want in the tourney. And if they think something is better, and feel it is a "quality" game, and you dont. We are going with the majority.

You are not putting specific suggestions in we can implement. All you say is, "quality over quantity". What makes a tournament better, as opposed to "public" games?

[Pesticide]

Cool, thx again for trying to bring back a tournament.

I see you made up your mind on what you want. To bad about the 128 had to go, but you leaned toward the very serious category so i get it, based on Soldier Responsibility: "Several trainings with your unit each week."

I wish all participants fun. I hope to play in more 128 prta events, as that suits me better

[Wicca]

Cool, thx again for trying to bring back a tournament.

I see you made up your mind on what you want. To bad about the 128 had to go, but you leaned toward the very serious category so i get it, based on Soldier Responsibility: "Several trainings with your unit each week."

I wish all participants fun. I hope to play in more 128 prta events, as that suits me better

The developers decide how to test the 100p code, and I think they have found a more "community" friendly approach to it.

Having the 100p code for the tournament would have been cool, but its better to have smaller more serious games. Than large unorganized brawls.

[Pesticide]

commander responsibilities seems to be missing in tartournament.com/threads/management-chain-of-command.434/ , only see the co-commander spot listed atm and was really curious what a commander task was now that he is not really in charge compared to previous season according to the announcement post.

[Wicca]

What? They are responsible for alot:


CO - Commander
Responsibility:
Discuss, organise and actualize the battles.
Motivate all players – especially the ones in your team.
Organize and moderate the team on all levels.
Perpare trainings.
Create battleplans.
Leading all soldiers assigned to your team.

[DoRn]

good choice with l4gi, Im excited!

[Tirak]

Jesus Christ, Wicca have you learned NOTHING since the last time you let that pustulous boil near anything you cared about? L4gi is fucking cancer. He lies, manipulates and steals. Remember the last time L4gi served with you in the PRT? Because I fucking remember him in the middle of a fucking battle ordering other squad leaders to disregard your orders and throwing the entire chain of command into disarray. I remember not one, but two attempted mutinies led by this fucktard. Every single time anyone has ever put trust in that ******* he has abused it and left things off far worse than before he was brought in. How many times is L4gi going to screw you before you finally realize he's a fucking menace to the entire god damned PR community?

[mitchverr]

Wow tirak say what you really feel

I aint read through the whole thing, so if its been said sorry, just make sure that the maps are not picked in a silly way, the most easy way to end a tournament is to pick maps 1 side simply cant win, if 1 team is alot weaker, give them advantage to level the playing field a bit, dont stick them in the "hole" that is consistant defeat with no chance as it will cripple the entire system.

[PFunk]

I aint read through the whole thing, so if its been said sorry, just make sure that the maps are not picked in a silly way, the most easy way to end a tournament is to pick maps 1 side simply cant win, if 1 team is alot weaker, give them advantage to level the playing field a bit, dont stick them in the "hole" that is consistant defeat with no chance as it will cripple the entire system.

I never understood the resistance to that kind of thinking about maps. Today on olympic tennis, France vs. Canada, the 3rd set went to the endless tie breaking where one guy had to win by 2, but they kept trading games because of the alternating serves. Basically it took forever for someone to make a mistake.

That makes more sense because it made it so that the winner didn't get an advantage.

I really liked the old PRT meta-game map they used to have that incorporated the idea of the global ticket reserve pool each team had, and how every Sup Com had to decide how many tickets to invest in each battle for his alliance, and how picking a series of battles lead down a certain path, meaning that you didn't just pick all your favourite maps if you won, but you had to pick a pre-determined series of maps becuase you thought "If we play this, then that, we can get to Kashan, which would be fun, and we can win it we think".

It was also really exciting because technically a loss could still be a win because you were more concerned with the global ticket advantage each alliance had, and picking a map wasn't just about winning at all costs but you could play the match strategically in a technically losing way but which gave you a better ticket-loss ratio for the match (you could lose the battle but lose fewer tickets than the victor and so the meta game was involved even in mid battle decisions).

What did this do? Gave you a reason to think about not just pushing on like a lunatic to win at any cost, but actually put into perspective the idea of preserving your tickets because defense might be smarter than all out lunatic offense. If you really wanted to win this battle you could invest a ton of tickets, or if you thought you'd lose badly you could invest fewer and play hyper defensive to maximize enemy ticket losses. This could really mitigate a bad map choice which otherwise would just be a pure "Can we win? No? Bollocks".

I think thats a more interesting tournament. It is harder for the admin, but honestly I think it'd be something worth reviving if we want to do more than just plain jane Admin picks or alternating pick.

[mitchverr]

Also, the clan arguments, i like clans being in tournaments, they are going to be happy having fun together sure, what i personally dont like is the chances of getting a setup like in 1 of the PRT campaigns, where it became basically "the clans" vs "the randoms who signed up to use leet gear and 1 clan holding it together though bad morale because of bad map picks and versions which dropped attendance".

Clans are fine, just dont side stack the clans to 1 group and then have another made up of randoms(with maybe 1 small clan holding it together) because that can very easily lead to the randoms ditching because they just aint having fun.

[Wicca]

Jesus Christ, Wicca have you learned NOTHING since the last time you let that pustulous boil near anything you cared about? L4gi is fucking cancer. He lies, manipulates and steals. Remember the last time L4gi served with you in the PRT? Because I fucking remember him in the middle of a fucking battle ordering other squad leaders to disregard your orders and throwing the entire chain of command into disarray. I remember not one, but two attempted mutinies led by this fucktard. Every single time anyone has ever put trust in that ******* he has abused it and left things off far worse than before he was brought in. How many times is L4gi going to screw you before you finally realize he's a fucking menace to the entire god damned PR community?

Herp a derp im tirak and i havent played PR in years..

If you cared why dont you step up and help out?

[Onil]

The structure is good but it all comes down to 3 things:

- Admins, CO's and Clan leaders/representatives being able to balance the division of clans and previous tournament squads or veteran players between both teams.
- Teams supporting each-other in their improvement to maintain a good balance and providing a more challenging gameplay.
- CO's and PL/SL using strict rules in regards to activity, discipline and dedication and kicking the ones that do not fill in the requirements. Instead of keeping them around for the numbers.

If you make it hard to get in TART because it is selective, then you guaranty high quality.

As P.Funk said, people want what they can't have... PRT was almost always full because it was actually hard to get in. And since there are so many players trying to get in, you don't have an issue with the lack of numbers and you can kick the bad apples cause you know you will get new ones.

I guess this all depends on what type of quality the CO's and their staff will be looking for.