TART - What was wrong?

[Web_cole]

Maybe it has something to do with people being banned for starting a discussion about the gametime and saying that anyone who's available on Saturday evenings is most likely a computer nerd with no "social" life.

Maybe one shouldn't have to be a computer nerd with no (Social) life to have dedication to something. there is no corrolation between practices, availability for game time and skill and maturity.

One should not take offense to the whole computer nerd with no life thing, it's a fair asssesment.

Not even sure where to start with this, so I'll avoid the obvious trolltoll computer nerd BS and just say that any ex-tourny SL or upwards would tell you that the guys who put in the time are the guys who are going to be successful. That is so obvious its barely worth saying, as is this; if you don't have the time, don't join the tourny.

[sharpie]

You know what...I might just be a commander this time.

Oh, and Wicca. I TOLD YOU SO.

YEAH MAN, FIGHT THE MAN, MAN.

DOWN WITH THE SYSTEM!!!!!


Personally, I think Gaz would make a great commander. It would be like the 19th century English army, where we would get flogged for backsass.

I need to stop waking up so early.

[Hannes_Sbg]

Hannes you are not really making any arguments why the hierarchy was bad, you only point that it was not used and that the team leadership was inactive & no where to be seen, of which I have already commented about.(Seriously, grunts running trainings. . .)

You have no influence on how the leadership team will preform. You can carefully choose the CO and hope it will work out. I focus on the structures because thats the thing you can change. Here are problems I have seen and possible solutions:

• There have been some obvious frictions between leadership of CORD and Admins. Training servers never met our needs. We operated with 25 man squads, training servers only supported 6 man squads. Forum was a mess and would have needed a complete new structure for CORD to provide what we needed. I have no insight why both was never changed.
  One solution would be to just give the CO or GSO all the rights to adjust server and forum to their needs. And yes, you would need a separated forum for each team and would mean you put a lot of trust in that CO or GSO. Other solution would be a kind of "embedded admin", which the admin team would provide, but would be part of the team.
• In CORD Platoon 2 was the dysfunctional part. Platoon Leaders and Squad Leaders changed frequently, no one felt responsible, grunt didn't show of because of it. The offensive INF Platoon 1 worked pretty well and the PL kept his man together. This led to situations where over 75% of the INF was assigned to attack, while the defensive Platoon was down to 6-8 men.
  How can you (as organizers not as CO) prevent that from happen again? You can screen the teams, looking for possible weaknesses in leadership and have a reserver (kind of task force) you can send in to take over that dysfunctional part of the team. Or you can try to flatten and open up the hierarchy to make it as easy as possible to step up and fill the hole. I already made some suggests how to archive the later one.

[CopyCat]

I would say in every aspect of life Vicious, it comes down to prioritizing things - just because someone is burning for a huge interest in something or dedication/patriotism is just the nature of his personality doesn't mean he's addicted or complete nerd. For the record Dedication and Addiction has a fine line between each other and not rarely it is experimented or expanded. By the way I would never think of someone taking offense in being called a nerd, it's just simply how you put it in words or formulate it.

On topic - Gaz please be CO DDD and I believe Raic
/CC

[Vicious302]

Not even sure where to start with this, so I'll avoid the obvious trolltoll computer nerd BS and just say that any ex-tourny SL or upwards would tell you that the guys who put in the time are the guys who are going to be successful. That is so obvious its barely worth saying, as is this; if you don't have the time, don't join the tourny.

It's not a troll, it's a fair assesment from anyone outside the pc gaming world. When I do spend too much time on the computer I even call my self a computer nerd with no social life.

Are we talking about a company or squads success or are we talking about the overall success of the tournament? Of course when the tournament is based around putting in time; than one will be more "Successful" by putting in more time, I do not doubt that. But imagine that the tournament was built around mass participation instead of mass sacrifice and dedication. Each side should have squads, companies, plattoons, whatever, led by someone who has more time, but for people that do not. The commander of this squad should be extraoridnarily good at forum intel preperation and discipline so that their "reserves" or "weekend warrior" are well prepared and kept in line the same way any other well dedicated ans sacrified squad would be. If each side has some of these player types, and the tournament supports and builds on that, everything would be succesful.

Many of you only build upon negaitive things that happened and very very few of you have positive constuctive ideas, so before you tell me I'm trolling, read this thread and tell me who has positive constructive ideas.

Very simple:
1) We need a huge server, no one liked that this was supposed to be based on 128+ and as soon as it started a very small but loud minority wanted to keep decreasing and destroying intead of increasing and creating. 166 Players +

2) Gametime needs to be long enough to atleast play 3 full rounds or 6-8 hours, whatever comes first. Players should not be locked into coming a set time every week and feel pressure into staying the entire time. I know PR players love that feeling of what's done is done but coming from over a dozen FH tournament I can tell you that new rounds give everyone a chance to feel like they are a part of something even if they weren't there for the roundstart of the first and maybe only round.

3) Squads for hobby-level, reserves, weekend warriors need to be encouraged as well as those same players ability to be encorporated into regular squads.

4) This talk about of teamstacking by splitting up clans is crazy, add more players to the other side but do not break up clans and destroy, CREATE AND ADD!

5) Last but not least, the tournament needs some personality, that's what made FH tournaments 4x as fun. Custom squad names, logos, barracks, taqs, etc. Where is the flavor? Why are we all putting on TART tags like we all forgot what server we are on?

[Wicca]

You know what...I might just be a commander this time.

Oh, and Wicca. I TOLD YOU SO.

You always tell me so.

And vicious just no. We are not doing any 128 code.

And one map round.

Clans can be kept togheter or spread out evenly regardless.

[Vicious302]

Well you asked. I gave ya my opinion. About 36 people took part in this discussion so far so if they all show up you guys will have a fun skirmish tournament.

[Wicca]

Well you asked. I gave ya my opinion. About 36 people took part in this discussion so far so if they all show up you guys will have a fun skirmish tournament.

And thats the last time i reply to any of your posts thanks

[Vicious302]

And thats the last time i reply to any of your posts thanks

That was a reply?

NEIN, NEIN, NEIN!!!

lol, right. I write like 3 paragraphs, you write 3 sentces and call that a reply. thats about as much work as you put in to your tournament, 3 sentences of thought, when you need 3 paragraphs.

Do you think your the first tournament to face these problems, I've been part of 4 tournament and each one has a problem with participation and leadership. The worst kind of player is the one who is around all the time and doesn't want to command and the the best kind of player is the one who isn't around much but has the dedication and drive needed. You need to find the balance and with your tone and willingness to conversate, I highly doubt that.

[PFunk]

I thought about actually trying to invest my time in discussing the evolving TART situation, but frankly I've decided its a waste of time to invest any real time here. Nobody is listening. The tournament is run by a slected inner circle of people who Wicca has decided he trusts and will get to direct things. Anything else mentioned here is likely to just get rejected out right or be in one ear and out the other.

If Wicca likes you or listens to you then you're the man. If not, don't waste your breath and just join the team with your friends on it.

There is no real discussion happening. People will only hear what they want to here.

[DDS]

A lot of ideas here but with any endeavor it takes people, time and commitment. Wicca should be given some credit for stepping up and asking for feedback. PRT worked well with those ingredients and probably suffered burn out from constant demands. If anything require people to participate MORE. Volunteer organizations, charities work because people fill gaps where needed. They don't tolerate people sniping off the side but would hand you a broom or show you the door. When you lean on so many people for too long it falls apart. Oh, and if students get concessions for them then so should working stiffs like myself who work all day. People complaining about certain aspects missing or lacking.. step up and make it happen. DDS

[Raic]

Standby, incoming hate . . .

You have no influence on how the leadership team will preform. You can carefully choose the CO and hope it will work out. I focus on the structures because thats the thing you can change. Here are problems I have seen and possible solutions:

• There have been some obvious frictions between leadership of CORD and Admins. Training servers never met our needs. We operated with 25 man squads, training servers only supported 6 man squads. Forum was a mess and would have needed a complete new structure for CORD to provide what we needed. I have no insight why both was never changed.
  One solution would be to just give the CO or GSO all the rights to adjust server and forum to their needs. And yes, you would need a separated forum for each team and would mean you put a lot of trust in that CO or GSO. Other solution would be a kind of "embedded admin", which the admin team would provide, but would be part of the team.
• In CORD Platoon 2 was the dysfunctional part. Platoon Leaders and Squad Leaders changed frequently, no one felt responsible, grunt didn't show of because of it. The offensive INF Platoon 1 worked pretty well and the PL kept his man together. This led to situations where over 75% of the INF was assigned to attack, while the defensive Platoon was down to 6-8 men.
  How can you (as organizers not as CO) prevent that from happen again? You can screen the teams, looking for possible weaknesses in leadership and have a reserver (kind of task force) you can send in to take over that dysfunctional part of the team. Or you can try to flatten and open up the hierarchy to make it as easy as possible to step up and fill the hole. I already made some suggests how to archive the later one.

Commanders were the ones organizing the TART before, Admins were only there to do stuff Commanders asked.
Servers were late, this was problem with Admin and such take blame for that.

Your solutions are exactly what we did. Commanders were in charge and had rights on the training servers, the rights were also given to all officers on request. Again, people not doing their job, little to do with non-working system.

However Commanders now aren't in charge of everything, only their teams. They will most likely still keeps the server rights and they will be given to as many officers as possible.
But now admins will be making decision factors on maps/servers/rules/announcements so we don't need to wait for Commanders decision for too long. They will keep their ability to reply and see some parts of the forums. So their voice won't be silenced.

The forums, not sure what were the problems and none of those were ever brought to my attention.

Team structure is not admins problem. I can give you forums, ask. I can give anyone what ever rank, ask. I can get you the server, ask. I can give you unimaginable pleasure, ask. I can't make good leadership appear, even if you ask. It simply is something you have to find and build yourself. I can't give you things you don't ask.

Now, anyone can step up for officer if we are missing one. Finding good officers can be a difficult, but any active member can raise the rank. Again, inactive team, not interested in contacting other officers and taking charge officially. Good ideas on how to bring people into officer ranks are appreciated.

Communications was one problem, I pointed this to commanders couple time that people are having trouble understanding what is going on and what they are supposed to do. This also caused that people didn't know they can simply contact their officers or commander if they have questions or are willing to try officer position.

Fucking words

You make a great point, because checking forums daily, spending an hour to train a week and couple more for battle every-two week makes man a huge neeeeee~rd. And what discussion did you start? All I can remember was you making a huge dumbass of yourself. You were removed because you said you can't make it to matches at 2000, because its not between 1500 and 2200, and I am fucking quoting you. You make a fair point that the tournament needs to get its interest factor higher, and that was happening. Squads were making signatures and logos and making a image of who they are. This isn't something organizers can do. Were not going to run more than one battle as they have chance or running up to 4 hours, not interested in 12hours of gaming.

As for "weekend warriors" and other ****. We have a set battledate which is where it is because that is the best time for most players. MOST, as in any other date and we get less. Other requirement is that squad must have a training from time to time. These are not amazingly hard concepts and if you really don't find time to do this, I cannot imagine how you find time to breath.

And you should know this, as I told you last time.

I thought about actually trying to invest my time in discussing the evolving TART situation, but frankly I've decided its a waste of time to invest any real time here. Nobody is listening. The tournament is run by a slected inner circle of people who Wicca has decided he trusts and will get to direct things. Anything else mentioned here is likely to just get rejected out right or be in one ear and out the other.

If Wicca likes you or listens to you then you're the man. If not, don't waste your breath and just join the team with your friends on it.

There is no real discussion happening. People will only hear what they want to here.

Cool, signup for CO or GSO? I like the inner circle part, really? You don't fucking say that people who have decided to give their hand and help make decisions? We are reading this thread, doesn't mean we need to agree with it or that people replying in it recognize the actual problems we had.

Biggest problems were in teams not getting activated and the couple who were, made decision to disactivate, because one side was overwhelming.
These two were THE problems, how do we fix them? People join and get active, active people activate others. Second, we will try to keep the teams a bit more even.

What else, make the tournament this and that? Sure, we could, we decided not to do that and decided to do this. Someone has to make the decision and no, you may not do it unless you step up.

I admit I was too inactive myself in kicking Commanders and the teams butt forward, when I recognized the inactiveness. But we will be trying and getting some people in who are to do just that, pushing teams a little if there are problems. And we will be communicating with the teams more.

What else is there?
Hierarchy? Hardly.
Forums? Maybe.
Keep the 128? Rather not.
Signing up? Yep, that be needing some ironing.
Most what people say is wrong was in the teams organization, nothing I can do about as it is the team itself doing that, period.

Sign up as CO or as GSO, build an active team and have fun. Step up.

A lot of ideas here but with any endeavor it takes people, time and commitment. Wicca should be given some credit for stepping up and asking for feedback. PRT worked well with those ingredients and probably suffered burn out from constant demands. If anything require people to participate MORE. Volunteer organizations, charities work because people fill gaps where needed. They don't tolerate people sniping off the side but would hand you a broom or show you the door. When you lean on so many people for too long it falls apart. Oh, and if students get concessions for them then so should working stiffs like myself who work all day. People complaining about certain aspects missing or lacking.. step up and make it happen. DDS

I could kiss you.

[CopyCat]

Amen Raic.

[MaxBooZe]

There is no real discussion happening. People will only hear what they want to here.

I could point out the irony, but for the sake of the discussion I will refrain. I'm pretty sure Wicca listens to actual constructive criticism, not people who say that no one will play on a Saturday even though it is quite a shown statistic (Look @ Steam/Xfire) that activity is higher on a Saturday evening than on a regular evening.

[Truism]

So who is actually making up your chain of comd? Butchers, bakers and students? You have a dozen or so officers on these forums, and many more other ranks. Canvas the community well in advance, identify the people with a commission or warrant attesting to their ability to organise and lead military organisations, and create a chain of command from them, then use your admin staff to support them. I think at the moment, you're asking the wrong people to do the job, and the level of accountability and results follow from that. Get a more accurate snapshot of the resources you have to achieve this, and come up with a plan that most efficiently distributes them.

[PFunk]

Seriously Raic? Step up? I've been doing nothing but step up since before the PRT died. I'm not trying to throw myself on the cross but to tell me that I didn't step up, even as recently as TART2 is just revisionist history.

All I've ever done is step up and fill in for when others don't do their jobs, becuase thats what people do when things have to get done. Its not special, its what tournaments and teams rely on to function.

Like I said I don't want recognition or anything, but don't tell me I need to step up when I have an opinion that defies the tournament's image. I've done plenty to plug gaps in my time, whether people agreed with how I went about my business or not.

Don't be an arse just cause you're defending the tournament. Admin are supposed to be cooler cats than that.

[Web_cole]

So who is actually making up your chain of comd? Butchers, bakers and students? You have a dozen or so officers on these forums, and many more other ranks. Canvas the community well in advance, identify the people with a commission or warrant attesting to their ability to organise and lead military organisations, and create a chain of command from them, then use your admin staff to support them. I think at the moment, you're asking the wrong people to do the job, and the level of accountability and results follow from that. Get a more accurate snapshot of the resources you have to achieve this, and come up with a plan that most efficiently distributes them.

Really I would say the opposite is true. If you are on these forums every day you are probably aware that there is a tournament, in one form or another, and you've probably either been there done that don't want to do it again, or you're just not all that interested, or don't have time.

One of Wiccas stated aims for this TART has been to get new blood in. The problem as far as I can see is there is no exposure in the places where newer eyes might read about it. The tournament tab up top doesn't go to TART, there's no front page link or news post, no scrolling message at the bottom of your screen when you start up PR. Now there are obvious reasons why those things don't exist, but at the same time my point stands; the only people who know about TART, are the people who already know about TART.

[DDS]

Seriously Raic? Step up? I've been doing nothing but step up since before the PRT died. I'm not trying to throw myself on the cross but to tell me that I didn't step up, even as recently as TART2 is just revisionist history.

All I've ever done is step up and fill in for when others don't do their jobs, becuase thats what people do when things have to get done. Its not special, its what tournaments and teams rely on to function.

Like I said I don't want recognition or anything, but don't tell me I need to step up when I have an opinion that defies the tournament's image. I've done plenty to plug gaps in my time, whether people agreed with how I went about my business or not.

Don't be an arse just cause you're defending the tournament. Admin are supposed to be cooler cats than that.

It should apply to those who don't step up as opposed to the step uppers. I commend you for that. As for me I have one arm and one leg until after surgery. Then I'll be a steppin' up.
Cheers

[Vicious302]

How could the forum problems not be obvious. There were mulitple redudant announcement threads, whoever was in charge of the forums has no experience with that and the admins and staff should have seen that and taken charge before the signups, let alone, the first battle. I signed up to be an officer and got picked over someone who I had never seen or heard of before and in 5+ years of tournament and public play when you don't know someones name, thats not great. not bad, just not great.

Raic and those complaining about the Nerd comment and the Saturday hours: I'm only saying your a nerd because your making yourself avaialble for a very specific time on a very busy day. I don't doubt that that's the best DAY for the tournament I'm just saying the hours need to be expanded so that one isn't excpected to set aside their dinner hours in order to play a game. There are SOOO many problems that come with only playing 1 round with 64 players. No one is going to feel involved. You basically need only 64 players that are going to show up every other week. If that's all you need I'm not sure why your involving a community of hundreds if not thousands of players in a converstaion that really only needs 64 people. So you have a few guys for backup? well if they don't play because the servers full, they get to play in your tournament once a month, and with once a month, you have basically the time given to you as some people spend writing checks for their bills. If you want to involve more people, INVOLVE MORE PEOPLE, 128+ 12 HOURS, EVERY WEEK. !!!!

This is supposed to be a fun tournament and it's nothing but tightwads not willing to concede anything to the greater purpose of FUN! And if it's not for fun, make a fun tournament as I'm describing and take your serious pants bullshit somewhere else.

[CopyCat]

I signed up to be an officer and got picked over someone who I had never seen or heard of before and in 5+ years of tournament and public play when you don't know someones name, thats not great. not bad, just not great.

might be probably because the application form that is filled in tells more then you or anyone else ?! There is no random picks or "What I feel for" picks, all selections are based on experience, knowledge, motivation and dedication otherwise the pick is not legit (doooh).

Raic and those complaining about the Nerd comment and the Saturday hours: I'm only saying your a nerd because your making yourself avaialble for a very specific time on a very busy day. I don't doubt that that's the best DAY for the tournament I'm just saying the hours need to be expanded so that one isn't excpected to set aside their dinner hours in order to play a game.

This is supposed to be a fun tournament and it's nothing but tightwads not willing to concede anything to the greater purpose of FUN! And if it's not for fun, make a fun tournament as I'm describing and take your serious pants bullshit somewhere else.

INVOLVE MORE PEOPLE, 128+ 12 HOURS, EVERY WEEK. !!!!

I believe we did come to a conclusion/solution that the tournament rosters/ingame slots will expand based on the numbers applying and participating?

Am I the only one getting a feeling Vicious here is on reaaaaaaaally wrong tracks when it comes to tournament and setup/organized events? (Considering your argument is based on from your point of view and constructive criticism probably flew out the window from your first post.) Try with facts, known errors among the members and players from the tournaments and etc to critics and recognize the problem to then propose or discuss a solution instead of spitting out everything you've got just to prove a point and call the rest a BS... PRT and TART tournaments had same concept and guideline to reach maximum enjoyment, giving the best team oriented and competitive environment to let people explore the game and play it as it was meant to be (organized, planned and executed to nearly a perfection). Tournaments like PRT and TART required dedication, willingness to try new things, interest and the will to become better, if you had that and if your team was always motivated or had similar aims and goals you would reach the highest level of enjoyment and fun during trainings, battles, plannings and even staff/platoon/squad meetings. Of course stubborn and ignorant players/members never reached that level due to lacking understanding or barely having a bit of team spirit to give it at least a chance. Want some fun on average public server level, go play on PRTA/NEW/Merk or any of their events, they got some pretty bad *** ones, but if you want something more then that, I'll say welcome to the tournament - This is serious business.

No offense.

/CC