Unrealistic IDF weapon loadouts

[9001]

Can someone please explain to me why the IDF weapon selection is so unrealistic?

1 - In game, almost everyone who has a Tavor has the 3x mag. IRL, this is issued generally to sergeants and officers. Most don't have the 3x mag.

2 - In game, the medic and grenadier have M4A1s, when the rest of the soldiers have the Tavor. You understand of course, that no army in the world follows the FPS video game trope of "medics receiving inferior weapons to compensate for their healing powers not being OP/weapon diversity sells more than monotony/medic isn't 'soldier class' so he should receive a different weapon entirely." What nonsense. As for the M203, they have Tavors mounted with it, why wasn't that model used?

3 - Negev is mounted with an ACOG. Outside of IDF SF, all soldiers utilize the iron sights mounted on the Negev. The ACOG would be seen as wasted, since it flies in the face of IDF doctrine (using the LMG purely for suppression).

4 - Tavor with ACOG is not limited in number of players who can use it? Sorry guys, but in the IDF, not everyone gets an ACOG.

Also, the combat vest of the soldiers seems to be the Efod, which has been phased out of front-line duty
http://irvingshapiro.tripod.com/cgi-bin ... t_com3.htm

infantry units use a different model
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/store/co ... sts/p1.htm

Aside, very nice mod. I had a CAR-15/M4A1 with a Mepro when I was in Kfir, and I liked the model.

[Mineral]

2. This is the way PR works. Medics don't get inferior weapons. They get different ones to compensate for their importance as a medic, they shouldn't be at the front, they should be at the back for when medical assistance is needed.

All our other questions, I have no clue

[Brainlaag]

1. Can't answer you on that, as I have no idea how the IDF handles that.
2. PR mentality, not really reflecting any RL setup. Also, I doubt they have a modeled version of the Tavor with the underslug 203 launcher. You have to consider ever model has to be made before put ingame. The M4 might be just a placeholder.
3. Again, I have no information on that so I can only speculate. But my best guess it's not to make it inferior to other LMGs in PR. It would be simply unfair when facing an opponent that has magnification optics, while you don't for whatever reason. Here applies the rule Gameplay > Realism.
4. I guess this is, like the previous point, not to make it too unbalanced compared the other factions.

[Rudd]

Hello 9001, welcome to the PR forums!

I personally have very little knowledge regarding the IDF IRL.

However I have heard tell that the reserves and regulars are armed quite differently? was the kfir a regular or reserve force?

I do remember that there was mention of some kind of unexpected shakeup of IDF infantry weapons not long ago, pretty much after the IDF weapons were finished for PR, might be some discrepancies because of that.

1) No idea, if its supposed to be different optics, I'd PM one of the Red tag or Dark blue DEVs with your credentials and/or sources etc just so we can ensure accuracy ingame.

2) the officer can choose an M4A1 also? It might be on a couple of other kits also, its not really to make the medic 'inferior' its just kinda to keep things varied a bit and highlight the unique role of the medic. I'm 99% sure the Tavor M203 hasn't been modeled yet, so the next best thing is presumably being used.

3) Cool! If correct, this just helps create a unique aspect to the IDF, I guess they would become the only regular force without a scope LMG.

4) I'm a little confused here, are you talking about the ACOG scope or the Magnified Mars scope now? Because the Marksman kit uses the ACOG and everyone else is using Mars scopes iirc ingame?

regarding teh kit geometries, I doubt they'll get redone at this point, thanks for the references though

[Doc.Pock]

sources sources sources.

also welcome to the formus, and i hope this gets turned into a discussion and doesn get locked as it can get interesting.

some changes would be very nice

[sweedensniiperr]

3) Cool! If correct, this just helps create a unique aspect to the IDF, I guess they would become the only regular force without a scope LMG.

Russia?

I THINK it has to do with some balance things, but afaik(not alot) aren't unscoped weapons not quite common in most armies? USMC, USArmy, Russia, MEC(I would assume)..?

Also it's over 9000.

[Brainlaag]

Russia?

I THINK it has to do with some balance things, but afaik(not alot) aren't unscoped weapons not quite common in most armies? USMC, USArmy, Russia, MEC(I would assume)..?

Also it's over 9000.

The PKM has a magnification, just no scope model for it (for the RAF only OFC).

[Doc.Pock]

lol took me some time to figure out the RAF one

whats over 9000?

[Hotrod525]

Israelian Defense Force, still widely use M4A1, they are rollin Tavor in service to what i understand, but you can't say that an M4 is inferior to a Tavor, they use the round round, got about the same ROF and the same barrel length, so overall... they are pretty much equal.

Anyway variety is never a bad thing...

[BroCop]

Werent there like 2 or 3 MA's actually doing the kit loadouts for this?

[Brainlaag]

Doc.Pock;1806416']lol took me some time to figure out the RAF one

whats over 9000?

What, you didn't figure it stands for foul language?

And as for 9000, Dragon Ball, my young friend.

Come on, that was just needless swearing. No infraction, but don't swear just for the sake of it. - Spec

[Doc.Pock]

i know of dragon ball my neigbour lad, infact im a fan, but i dont see the relevance of the defacto line in the context mr. swedensniiper used it. *likeasir.jpg*

[Rudd]

Doc...the OP's name is 9001

[9001]

Rudd:

1. IDF Tavors have the MARS built onto the barrel. The MARS is standard issue. The 3x mag is supplied in limited quantities.
Red Tag? Dark Blue DEV? What is this?

2. Look, that's fine. You can have soldiers from the same unit using completely different firearms. It's a videogame. But then the realism factor takes a hit. If anyone here has served in the military, you can understand the absurdity. "Oh that's Bob. Yeah, he's the medic, so we gave him an M4 instead of the Tavor. Hmm? Why? No reason, just cause, y'know, he's the medic, and well... you know... it's cooler to have a variety of weapons..."
If you would like, you could create an entire team loadout with M4s. In Paratroopers and Kfir, the M4 is still standard issue. So that would be quite realistic. But units don't mix and match rifles like seen here.

3. Jeez, didn't you guys have IDF soldiers advising for realism? Putting a scope on a Negev is just Wassah (slang for military-coolness-without-purpose). I remember we had a MAG with a rail on top, and a sharpshooter put his Trij on it for fun. Our sergeant made him run in circles for an hour.

4. No, I'm talking about the 4x Trijicon. The ACOG. It's been a while, but I think it's 2 (or is it 1?) marksmen (קל&#1506 per squad. The designated marksmen's scope is the ACOG. Not everyone is allowed an ACOG, only the קלע.

Sources? Look, this is just stuff I saw. I don't know what you want me to provide.

[Doc.Pock]

well this all might be possible but here we request written or film/pic sources of what youre claimimg not just i saw it somewhere or something.

Rudd: ahh... n00b me

[Rudd]

R-DEVs with red/blue tags are senior devs, I have green tags because I'm retired from deving (well..semi)

I can't remember which ones, but some of the DEVs that helped make the IDF were in the IDF at some point iirc. It was from them I heard about the reservists vs regular differences.

regarding 4. you are incorrect afaik, there is one marksman per squad, and he is the one using an ACOG apart from the Negev ofc, which if you are correct would lose it anyway. So thats 1 ACOG...so there's no problem there....?????

Sources wise, you can have a hunt around press releases from the IDF or manufacturers, or I presume there are various magazines that circulate in the IDF regarding current IDF news etc?

If it ends up that everyone in the IDF ingame uses pretty much the same gun with a few notable exceptions (AR, marksman etc) then its all good, hell - it saves RAM for better performance.

But its difficult to tell what is true and what isn't true on the internet, sources help confirm reliability.

[Zemciugas]

Russia?

I THINK it has to do with some balance things, but afaik(not alot) aren't unscoped weapons not quite common in most armies? USMC, USArmy, Russia, MEC(I would assume)..?

Also it's over 9000.

Russian regurals are pretty much irons all the way. Only the highter tier guys get the good stuff. The rest are expendable meatgrinders.

[9001]

R-DEVs with red/blue tags are senior devs, I have green tags because I'm retired from deving (well..semi)

I can't remember which ones, but some of the DEVs that helped make the IDF were in the IDF at some point iirc. It was from them I heard about the reservists vs regular differences.

regarding 4. you are incorrect afaik, there is one marksman per squad, and he is the one using an ACOG apart from the Negev ofc, which if you are correct would lose it anyway. So thats 1 ACOG...so there's no problem there....?????

Sources wise, you can have a hunt around press releases from the IDF or manufacturers, or I presume there are various magazines that circulate in the IDF regarding current IDF news etc?

If it ends up that everyone in the IDF ingame uses pretty much the same gun with a few notable exceptions (AR, marksman etc) then its all good, hell - it saves RAM for better performance.

But its difficult to tell what is true and what isn't true on the internet, sources help confirm reliability.

Well, my issue with the sharpshooters was that in the IDF you have a finite number of ACOGs per squad, and in this mod they are not limited. Everyone can have an ACOG if they want. Which is unrealistic.

As for sources... how can I prove that X or Y is/isn't common practice? I have a bunch of pictures from my service, but any pictures I show could be understood as isolated cases.

For 1., any picture you find on the net of a soldier with a 3x mag is going to be an commander. Heck, why even look that far; Google pictures of the Tavor in use by the IDF. Have you noticed that in any picture of IDF soldiers with Tavors, 99% of the time they don't have it equipped? Because not everyone gets one. Very few do. Which makes the loadout in Project Reality very weird.

For 2., there isn't anything to talk about, because we have established that putting an M4 in a loadout with a bunch of Tavors is unrealistic and absurd. That there is no model for the Tavor with an M203 is understandable, but giving the medic an M4 is just dumb.

For 3., I can provide pics from my own service, but, again, if you google "Negev", any picture where IDF soldiers are using it you will see it doesn't have a scope mounted.

You know what? Why am I even doing this? Who gave the ideas for the IDF weapons? I want to talk to them.

[tankninja1]

PR seems to be set 10 minutes into the future, so chances are high that in any war just in the future most regular armies would find that supplying ACOGs or Magnified scopes are well worth the cost and make the infantry far more effective, similar to what most NATO countries have found in Iraq and Afghanistan. Continuing on the topic of scopes most armies around the world allow soldiers to attach whatever attachments they want to their guns provided that the soldier buys said attachment.

Side note: Wal-mart 3x scope attached to some insurgent or militia mans scope with duct tape would be funny

[Rudd]

You know what? Why am I even doing this? Who gave the ideas for the IDF weapons? I want to talk to them.

they have since retired