Maps to be removed

[40mmrain]

So, 1.0 is approaching, eventually. I'm sure the dev team has thought about which maps need removal, because they do it all the time thankfully. Considering removing maps takes literally zero effort, this is a good time to discuss this.

Please post maps in this thread that you feel are : outdated, catastrohpically imbalanced, or not up to PR's standards. This thread is not intended for you to say how you find kashan unfun because you only play infantry or something. Include why.


1. Korengal Valley.
Korengal valley is an awful map. Even with the huge amount of tickets, and 2 caches at once the americans receive, and can attack, this map is impossible to play properly. Firstly, are the impossible caches. An impossible cache is exactly what it sounds like, caches that are impossible for either side to attack, or defend respectfully. Examples include, but are not limited to, caches in caves with water youre required to swim through leading for the easiest chokepoints in the game, caches that youre required to throw 3 ropes up to, making it impossible to get to it, as youre completely defenseless climbing up a rope. There are countless caches like this in korengal. The second reason korengal ought to be removed, is the stupid terrain. There is nowhere you can build FOBs in korengal. Because there is no helicopter, roads have collapsible rocks over them, and the roads are so limited, building a fob anywhere, is pointless. All fob locations are predictable, and due to most caches only having 1 road leading to them, even if you built a decent a decent fob, it wouldnt be close to your target, at all. This lead to another huge issue, which is lack of ability to use mortars. Not only does the steep valley make accurate mortar hard, which is not really a bad thing, but only serves to make an impossible map for americans even more.. impossible, as if that makes sense. But, because there are so many limited places to put fobs, and because bridges, rock slides, and so few roads are available running supplies is impossible, mortars in general are simply impossible. I've tried vehemently, with a full 6 man squad to mortar effectively. Even with commander UAV support, it was difficult to actually get accurate, and getting overrun happened all too often, because of our predictable location, and lack of men to defend, due to men having to do dangerous supply runs, and man mortars. This means BLUFOR has no way of utilizing the UAV capabilities to destroy enemy FOBs, and entrenched positions. On top of impossible caches, and counters becoming worthless is the pathetic draw distance. A lot of american weapons, like the M24, and CROWS humvee would be a lot more useful, and give an advantage of firepower like theyre supposed to, if you could see beyond your face in korengal. I've tried tirelessly to organize sniper teams on korengal, and the biggest issue we always run into is, we simply cant see across the valley. Further still, on top of balance issues, the map is outdated. Small draw distance, small map (1km maps are not of recent PR), which means lack of helicopters and other things make maps like dragon fly, and lashkar make korengal look like some vanilla tier map. On the same note as lack of helicopters this compounds the impossibility of mortars, and in general any proper logistics for the americans. Lastly, Battlefield 2's platforming is not suited for what the terrain is like in this game. There are countless mountainsides that are stupid to scale, requiring you to mash the space button trying to get over these little bumps. I dont know what the mapper was thinking, but it's just silly, and frustrating at once. Especially awkward when you are in a firefight at these places.

In short, in a game mode where superior firepower, balances with defensible terrain, the map korengal takes away all of the superior firepower for one side through certain measures, and then at the same time gives as much superior terrain as possible to the other. Doesnt take a mathematician to understand that, that's probably a good way to make your map imbalanced, and therefore BAD. I find it kind of strange that I regularly see the hardcore server playing this map. My only reasoning could be that, players there like to have a "challenge" (it's really not, it's a challenge in the same sense that trying to fit a square peg through a round hole is challenge.), and they believe that they're going to get some sweet solo stealth C4 cache destruction, despite the fact that this NEVER happens. The only good thing I have to say about korengal, is that it has a really nice ambiance and atmosphere. IF you've ever taken a walk on the southwest of the map, the dried river bed, and compounds, and forest are really quite serene, so are other spots in the north. However, this does not make a good PR map, sadly.

I'm posting this, to request a removal for Korengal, or at least promote discussion about why it should be, or shouldnt. However, like I stated, I think it has a nice atmosphere. I'm sure many of us have seen the documentary restrepo, which this map is obviously based on, or rather, the movie takes place, where this is based on, and this was inspired by it. Because of this, I still want a korengal map in the game, just not this one. I've thought a lot about what this map could be, and how it could be good. If any mapper wishes to approach me, and volunteers to do the mapping for a korengal 2.0, backed by my ideas, then i'd love to work with you. HOwever, I have no experience with making maps, at all, so I could not do it myself. Ideas involve proper base placement, and construction, proper asset layout, and proper caches. That being said, without that happening, and I doubt it will, which is fine, all I ask is we talk about korengal.


2. Karbala
Karbala is another terrible insurgency map. It's practically the exact opposite of korengal. From Americans having an impossible time, to having all sorts of free caches, and massive no mans land for insurgents. I read the announcement for karbala in the archives the other day, and what was mentioned was "CQB map" or something? I think the mapper just got really lazy. He started out really well with a nice city in the center, kept expanding out, intended to reach the edges, and then got bored and said "fuck it, good enough" halfway through. Well unfortunately, that makes the map awful, on top of there being little CQB. Karbala suffers from impossible cache syndrome almost as badly as korengal. Karbala has a large amount of caches that are basically free game for BLUFOR, and therefore impossible for insurgents. These include the destructible apartment block in the northwest quadrant, because it's completely cut off, meaning armour can easily intercept any reinforcements coming in, and a fob within the compound will be spotted and taken out very easily. Others like the southern house strip that is again cut off due to a river, and small amount of houses for cover, along with large desert patches for the armour to operate safely in. There are many others. The criteria for these are massive streches of desert bordering the cache area making armour, and air power operation really, really easy. If you've flown in karbala, or driven the tank you'll learn really fast that flying over city caches, and driving the tank in the city is a very delicate operation. Not so in the desert, just park out of rpg, and spg techie range, and with so much open space that a bombcar assault short of a ten man convoy is worthless. Basically free kills for armour at that point. The only saving grace is that there are a few armour chokepoints, like the big mosque area to the north, and the bridges, but these are not hard counters.

Being the opposite of korengal, one would assume that this map takes all the terrain away from the INS, and gives BLU too much firepower, right? Yes, it does! Basically, karbala should be 100% city, but is a really abbreviated version of this, resulting in a massive amount of undefensible caches. This is just bad gameplay, when the point is to defend, and you just can't. I also frequently see hardcore playing this server. This is because people love to switch to BLUFOR, as theyre usually bad players, and this is their only time they can dominate their enemy. This is selfish, and a result of a bad map. Further, it makes victory all too hollow for the BLUFOR. As a closing statement, again, like korengal, this is a cool map, with some character to it, at least in the city. Karbala was a very deadly city in the sunni triangle early on in iraq. The inner city of Karbala really captures that feeling, and brings it into the game. I want karbala, but not this karbala. Karbala 2.0 can be done in two ways, that would make an excellent map. Either simply remove all the outskirt caches, including the southwest refinery, the northwest apartment block, the southern river housing strip, and the hospital, removing caches from the northern mosque complex, and remove the small fenced factory complex to the west. This would mean that Karbala would in reality just be a small, 1x1km city map, with a huge desert around it, which would be an improvement. Or, Karbala 2.0 would be expanding the city all the way out 2x2km, and then giving blufor appropriate assets to balance. As of now the current karbala needs to be removed.



If you want to suggest more maps to be removed, or tell me why im wrong, please discuss. Also I dont know if this goes in suggestions, or not, feel free to move it, mods.

[rodrigoma]

I would say Ramiel aswell,
I would also have said Burning sands but I think its much better now with the update

[40mmrain]

Never really had any issues with ramiel. Care to tell why it's dated or imbalanced?

[Bringerof_D]

but i love korengal and i always when given the opportunity will go blufor on that map. it's just a blast, getting anywhere to do anything is a fight for your life.

however you do make very good points which are very apparent problems with the map. In particular are the cache locations that are impossible to attack, without using gamey solutions that is like finding the wall closest to the cache and using C4.

instead of a removal i'd prefer to see the map's cave systems either redone with new lay outs that do not require ropes and ladders and more openings and alternate routes inside them, or that no caches spawn inside them. the cave farthest to the northeast is fine though.

the lack of fobs is an issue only in regards to not being able to have mortars. if possible in this map only they should allow mortars be built in the main since that essentially functions as a FOB. other than that i love korengal. (maybe an AAS layer could be made if insurgency doesn't work out for it)

[40mmrain]

as far as I know an AAS layer used to exist, but was taken out because it didnt work.\

I understand why you like korengal, the afghan mountain maps are pretty cool, lashkar, badghis, whatever, which is why I want a v2 of korengal, but as it stands, I can't support 1.0 carrying this map.

Starting off by fixing the caves, having permanent mortars within the base, increasing draw distance, and fixing up a lot of the terrain that currently makes maneuvering a gigantic pain in the *** would help it be more playable, but it still would favour the taliban too much.

[Mouthpiece]

OP certainly has a point. Both maps are unbalanced (Korengal - easy for Tali, hard for BLUFOR, Karabala - easy for BLUFOR, hard for INS), and if we compare these maps to other great maps of this mod, we could say that they lack some of the better qualities of those other maps.

[Lange]

Rain, after playing a round of Korengal tonight on CIA it reminded me once again what crapfest of a map it is to play nowdays. Finished a round where the US got no caches and was basically just a Taliban rapefest where the one cache was on a hill and impossible to get too. No fun at all at the US when they just come in swarms and kill everyone where you can't get to this isolated location. Overall heres some of my 50 cents about the map

If you play Taliban its not too bad but as US its horrendous. Rain covered a lot of what is wrong I think with the map just overall it just has really has shown its age and I think at least temporarily needs to be retired. Its got too many problems and not to mention horrendous performance issues for many people(myself included) and just makes for rounds where you can't do jack shit as US. I literally sat in the mainbase the last 30 min of the round when our tickets were hopeless drained dicking around because there was NO point of attacking the cache anymore, when the Taliban could just cover from about anywhere. You try to stay back on the hill and do firesupport with long range kits you get sniped. You try and use the limited roads of the mountain from the mainbase, you get blown up or raped because they are easy to camp. The map is a huge clusterfest and I just about refuse to play it in a public game now after the round I had.

Please don't get me wrong that im judging it based off one game i've played the map several times to see its issues but I was just more solidified with all this.

As for Karbala its a decent map but its old and I feel some of the older PR maps are really starting to cause gameplay issues nowdays in the insurgency department. Al Basrah included although it has had some tweaks to improve it. We really need fresh blood with insurgency and not focus so much on these (in my opinion) pointless AAS maps that everyone hates to play.

[40mmrain]

hehe thanks for agreeing.

The DB mod does favour insurgent factions so, it does make korengal worse than it already is, I was trying to address the unmodded version of the game, but the DB mod really brings out the worst in the map.

[LITOralis.nMd]

I really enjoy Korengal, and the Skirmish layer is my favorite skirmish map in PR.

Not sure how any of the DBMod changes are getting implemented, but removing the hardest cave caches, and possibly making the Taliban start with only 30 points would fix the problem.

In an organized group it's not impossible as US if some minor changes were made.

I'd also suggest increasing the view distance by 50 or 100 meters on korengal, allowing the US to reach out and touch some Taliban all the way across the valley.

[ExNusquam]

My 2 cents on Korengal is that yes, the US gets fucking raped. However, I think some of the best firefights I've ever had in PR have happened on Korengal. Do the cave caches suck? Yep. Do the US have no chance at making FOBs? Yep. However, even if it's lopsided, it's FUN. Nothing in PR has topped some of the firefights I've had along the river as the US pushed towards a cache. As long as the map can provide decent combat, it's not detracting from the mod.

[Arnoldio]

Korengal is indded hard as hell, but that doesnt make it unplayable. Some fixes could make it more balanced because it must stay.

Now, from worst to less worse.

1. Ramiel
No details, monotone. It works great, but visually way off PR standards.

2. Quai river
Same. Lacks the life other maps have.

3. Karbala.
Easy for BLUFOR and also uninteresting visuals for the most part.

4. Jabal al Burj
Too plain in places that arent flags, and on some flags aswell.

I think that about all. I dont want then removed, just updated.

[40mmrain]

My 2 cents on Korengal is that yes, the US gets fucking raped. However, I think some of the best firefights I've ever had in PR have happened on Korengal. Do the cave caches suck? Yep. Do the US have no chance at making FOBs? Yep. However, even if it's lopsided, it's FUN. Nothing in PR has topped some of the firefights I've had along the river as the US pushed towards a cache. As long as the map can provide decent combat, it's not detracting from the mod.

which is exactly why I want to do a korengal map. It could be what you say, but way better.

[shellshock]

Korengal needs a helo for us, either attack heli utility heli or both! also is there anywhy you guys could make the winter mappack maps come with the patch download? there was a really epic map 'barentz invasion' that got lost because it wasnt standard issue!!

[Pronck]

Make 2.0 maps for Korengal and Karbala. Ramiel is not a problem. What I would like to see is an more extended version of Korengal Valley, so the valley is bigger. Maybe they could make it an AAS version focused on base defense.

[ExeTick]

Pronk you just made me hope for a new korengal valley map

[Walmarx]

Korengal is one of my favorite maps, albeit for all the wrong reasons. There is no better setting for ultra-quiet flanking missions. One actually has to listen, rather than look, to find the enemy. I would very much hate to see it go, but I understand, and on some level agree with most of your points 40mm. The terrain is a joke, and blufor spends more time fighting it than the enemy.

However, the only factor that makes Korengal unplayable to me, is the same for many great INS maps; cave caches. They are horrendously boring to defend, and a suicide lemming march to attack. This is of course compounded on Korengal by the arduous task of even reaching the cave, only to be IED'd right at the entrance by a Taliban player half-watching TV.

I would like to see a new cave system introduced, using the destructible terrain meshes like the roadblocks in Korengal. Why not add 2-3 additional ways into the caves, that must be blown open with C4? It would be somewhat difficult to pull off mapping-wise, but It could certainly liven things up. Its arguably not realistic, but it sounds fun to me.

On the subject of Karbala, I agree 100%. It is the second worst map in PR in my opinion (after Kashan =P). You have covered all my complaints, and also how I would improve it as well. Please let that mess become a memory. My cohort Kay-marx rightfully calls it "baby's first counter-insurgency".

And now we come to Kashan Desert. Yes, the lack of infantry involvement is a major part of my distaste for it. The bunkers are restrictive and dull; the most effective way to play those objectives is to stick a squad inside a bunker, and have a man sit and watch every entrance. But beyond that, the terrain around them is also painfully predictable for those who enjoy asset play.

Kashan could be salvaged I believe. Perhaps I am merely biased by the fatigue of the 500 rounds I have suffered through on it over the years, but it just lacks life (aside from the whole barren wasteland palette). Maybe a much larger, diverse bunker network with an underground weapons research/production facility (elevator please =D), branching into tunnels that bridge the caps? Perhaps oil pipelines that span the map, capable of concealing armor movements somewhat? An oasis with a little dirt airstrip and a few houses somewhere? Just spamming some ideas here.

As far as outdated maps go, Basrah could use a look. Maybe just elevated highways in the city, with exit ramps like those featured in Marlin? Boats on the river? Certainly more hills in the deserts.

On the subject of DBmod, NO. It obliterates the INS game mode. The cache system is, by nature, buggy as shit from a gameplay perspective. DBmod goes and removes what little debugging we had, and just assumes it works like a Kalashnikov. It calls a great deal of attention to cache positioning on INS maps, and many of them just don't function as balanced, solitary objectives; they were designed with multiple, simultaneous hot points in mind.

[ChallengerCC]

Insurgency is not balanced at all, thats the point. The maps are ok.

Insurgences need tickets also like conventional troops or has a insurgence no value?
Its like playing ArmA2 versus Call of Duty.

Ok its asymetric, hard to balance and to create a game mode for this setting is i think not realy possible or with a big amount of creativity and a lot of work. And the devs did a realy good job here. I can only suggest to give Insurgence a value of life this will fix a lot of problems. It must be something to force the Insurgency to hide and attack or build traps ambushes and so. But how to force such thinks i dont know.

By the way:

I WANT WANDA SHAN BACK !!!

[40mmrain]

Kashan could be salvaged I believe. Perhaps I am merely biased by the fatigue of the 500 rounds I have suffered through on it over the years, but it just lacks life (aside from the whole barren wasteland palette). Maybe a much larger, diverse bunker network with an underground weapons research/production facility (elevator please =D), branching into tunnels that bridge the caps? Perhaps oil pipelines that span the map, capable of concealing armor movements somewhat? An oasis with a little dirt airstrip and a few houses somewhere? Just spamming some ideas here.

firstly, thanks for your input! I do agree with some of the dated feeling of kashan. It is rather plain, yes! A larger bunker complex, with some extra goodies sprawling the map would breathe some life into. Plus, there's a single player map called Desert Rats, which is just kashan with brits, and really slick lighting. Secondly, with larger servers coming around, infantry will be more important on the map. As it stands it's regular to have less than 10 infantry at once per side. That's too small for fighting over such a large compound. If that number is 30 per side, then this might change the map around for the better.

Kashan is still very passable, because it is symmetrical and remains balanced, but it is a little boring as inf, and could use updating. Perhaps some new, unique layers, like many jets, or lighter armour and light helicopters only, and so forth

here's Desert Rats

vs. Kashan


much prettier! It has a nicer airbase too, would be nice as the MP map

Lastly, yes, basrah is really old, and is imbalanced. I might do a write up on it.

[Rudd]

Kashan is still very passable, because it is symmetrical and remains balanced, but it is a little boring as inf, and could use updating. Perhaps some new, unique layers, like many jets, or lighter armour and light helicopters only, and so forth

which is why 128 on kashan is so fun, a much better balance of infantry/vehicles.

[ShockUnitBlack]

Fail to see how Burning Sands is even being mentioned in this thread. It's one of PR's absolute best maps right now, especially in that both infantry and vehicles are effective on it.

Karbala is just a really outdated map and feels like the urban cornmaze of death - very linear. Very few, if any, points of interest and visually extremely bland. Could probably be balanced but I think it would be better removed. War in Iraq's over, too.

I've never enjoyed Qwai River. It doesn't hold up visually with the current maps and I feel like most games end being a rather boring Mexican standoff across the banks of the river. The topography also feels unnatural IMO.

Basrah also suffers from a lack of interesting places to fight and is visually dated. Most games boil down to the British sitting out in the desert picking their bums and taking potshots at insurgents and the insurgents sitting around picking their bums and waiting for the British to come into the city so they can shoot at them. Again, the War in Iraq's over.

Kashan is a classic but needs a visual update. I also think some points of interest on the ridge wouldn't go amiss and neither would some changes to the bunker complexes, just to keep things interesting (infantry gameplay on the map has become pretty stale).

Jabal needs some changes; maybe a road running from the West Beach to the dam. The dam complex might benefit from a few more buildings to fight over too.

Barracuda needs thicker jungle like the stuff on Tad Sae.

Ramiel might benefit from a visual change (making it a night map might work).

Korengal is visually superior to most other maps and I think could be made to work if the positions of each sides bases were changed.

Archer feels a bit like Qwai (weird topography). Also, Canadians are no longer engaged in combat in Afghanistan.

TL;DR verison -

Remove -
Qwai
Karbala
Basrah

Visually Update -
Barracuda
Kashan
Ramiel
Archer

Rebalance -
Korengal
Jabal

A few night conversions would also be appreciated for the sake of making old maps feel fresh again. One or two new gamemodes would also hugely benefit the game (hoping for objective-based gameplay between conventional factions one day, like what was seen in ET:QW).