Squads way off target

[Frontliner]

But sometimes you can be in the most strategic position of the map(The mountain on Kashan) and this area is completely out of the flag battle. New mapmakers should plan for such things, so that areas of strategic importance are flags in themselves. When you can choose the objective, or the hill that rapes the objective, the game play is going to be kill oriented, and thus not up to PR's standards.

I disagree on "best spots" having to be objectives themselves. Some squads might prefer staying outside of the hot zone for various reasons(scouts ofc, but also tanks, mortars, AA/AT). Not to mention that if you think that this or that spot is of such importance to have you can easily dedicate a squad for clean up duty there and gain that spot for your own team. Or keep it shut down from the flag side the entire time.


Regarding the issue, I find it more often than not having the heavy assets(tanks and fighters) in capable hands ensuring victory. 3 days ago(or so) we fought on Silent Eagle against a team full of Merk's and New's and despite the flags being equal with a slight lead for the Russians, we had a 140 ticket lead(2xx:63, game crashed at that point.), which I believe was mostly due to our tanks and air being good at their job. Keep in mind that we had some clan member on our side too(some 3DAC guys on the mortars and the plan b's at logistics/commander duty), just noticeably less.

[Mikemonster]

I think there's definitely a correlation between inter Squad chat and teamwork, but not between inter-Squad chat and a winning team.

Ditto with Murphy also, clans do not create teamwork (unless you have them working together and leading a squad each - but that never happens so it's a null point).

Clans are the most experienced players, and as thus they rarely play infantry (good players migrate to more fun and 'valuable' positions in the team). When playing as Infantry they tend to 'lonewolf' as locked squads in my experience, working for the team but not trusting other squads (rather than each being an SL and controlling the team). Which is fine. They tend to do well and have the largest impact on the team's progress despite this.

People keep confusing teamwork with:

a) A fun game
b) A successful team
c) A realistic team
d) Clans being present (or not)
e) Good comms
f) Getting supplies/logistics

In general there IS a link with each of them (and others i've not thought of). But they are not the same.

You can have a fun game with no teamwork, a successful team with no logistics, good comms without clans being present, a realistic game with good comms but an unsuccessful team. Etc. Etc. Etc.

All of the different aspects of the game link with each other, but they aren't as simple as one = the other.

[AcEy]

Commanders make a big difference. (as I mentioned in an earlier post)

We played Dien Duong INS yesterday. Most of the squads were made up of randoms. My squad consisted of two friends(=BW= SmokeMe and Cartwright) and three randoms players. We had a great commander: AUS Lat....something (please forgive me I forget your full name).

The commander was Livermore_AUS. Well done sir!

Sammy swannny swa.... Samsonite! I was way off

[Mikemonster]

Heh, nice D&D quote brother

[DDS]

Ditto with Murphy also, clans do not create teamwork (unless you have them working together and leading a squad each..

You are correcto!

- but that never happens so it's a null point).

Right null point because it is NEVER ENFORCED on any server that I am aware of because "fun" has replaced team and work. (TG eat your heart out)

Clans are the most experienced players, and as thus they rarely play infantry (good players migrate to more fun and 'valuable' positions in the team).

Oh really, so if I just put on some tags I'm an experienced player? LMAO
Nonsense!

Fun and 'valuable' positions? Oh you mean like sniper? LOL

When playing as Infantry they tend to 'lonewolf' as locked squads in my experience, working for the team but not trusting other squads (rather than each being an SL and controlling the team). Which is fine.

There is the other side of that coin too. The "lonewolf" cant get into clan run squads because it is locked, or get kicked because "im holding a spot for my buddy", squad members don't speak at all in mumble (I have mumble installed as required but dont use it), don't speak english, squad leader is afk, lemmings squad (keeps attacking same direction and get wiped out repeatedly), squad consists of sniper, hat and engineer and pilot with NO MEDIC.

The ONLY reason I can think of locking a squad is to keep a griefer out of your squad. But what about server rules and the great teamplay clan servers have? There should be NO REASON to lock no?

The hypocrisy is astounding especially when these server scrolls all these rules over and over about 'teamwork' which are completely ignored unless it is a clan buddy on the receiving end.

People can remember one or two good teamplaying games a week. I remember back post .6 when EVERY GAME was on.

And mumble is becoming a joke for the most part. We have replaced the commander position with essentially 4-6 squad leaders who cant agree on anything and with zero follow up.

"where is that tank guys???" "hello? where is the tank??" "mike check?"

Boom

Most of the squad lead chatter is in the last 50 points when they only want something from another squad.

"come on guys were losing.. stop wasting those (tanks/choppers) and dont give up"

[Gracler]

Clans are the most experienced players, and as thus they rarely play infantry (good players migrate to more fun and 'valuable' positions in the team).

I'm not in a clan which means i'm always joining random squads which i prefer. I prefer being without bounds. I never noticed that people with clan tags are better than people without clan tags though. With a lot of playing you learn who are good by name, and who isn't. I still have't found a clan that has an overall quality that is better than an average gamer. Often people with clan tags think they are so good that they actually turn into bad players wasting time and assets and just blame a random smurf for there own mistakes.

[L4gi]

Waddahell? I definetly do infantry more than assets, and so do most of my clanmembers. SRF and 3rdac do a lot of inf too. GDW and LorDs are virtually inf only. Rest I dont usually even care about.

[Murphy]

Often people with clan tags think they are so good that they actually turn into bad players wasting time and assets and just blame a random smurf for there own mistakes.

I have to disagree when your point is that random squads are better then clan squads. When you're playing with people who react in a manner you're accustomed to you find your place in the equation. Random squads is just headless chickens and you really are just rolling the dice for the quality of player. Also I would like to point out that having reliable people covering your back rarely happens in squads of randoms, it feels more like they are just trying to out kill you and often a random pubbie player will refuse to take the boring roles. Watching danger close, the most important role is always overlooked as they would have to stair at the doorway for 10+ minutes instead of taking their binos out and prairie dogging.

So on their own someone wearing clan tags may not seem better then that random who just let him get shot in the back then doesn't care to find the medic kit and revive. But in a group clans will almost always out perform a squad of random people who are mostly motivated by the own personal desires. This ultimately leads to SLs who are only in it for their own personal victory and often leads to those dipshits building a FOB in the middle of nowhere and decide to defend it even if the entire team is cussing at them.

[Mikemonster]

I've got nothing against clan squads, read my post above and I say that it's fine that they do their own thing, because they generally do it better than all the other squads put together (in terms of winning the game for the team at least).

Again people are perhaps getting confused. I wasn't implying that being in a clan makes you experienced. I was stating that most experienced players are in a clan.

I recognise a lot of the clan-people that I play with and that's because i've seen them in servers for a couple of years now. I'm an experienced player myself and don't hold clan players in a mystical and invincible light (was in a great clan myself at one point).

Indeed there are some clans that play Inf a lot in locked squads, these are the ones that I mentioned. Usually I just see OD-S doing it in the Euro servers.

But the game promotes using assets and wowomg weapons like Sniper and HAT. They get you more kills and promote your feeling of self-importance (through being 'invaluable' to the team and allowing you to role-play Stalingrad fantasies). These roles are not easy to play well without a LOT of practise (and motivation to want to).

There is a natural progression to this by players throughout their 'PR Careers'. As such the experienced players (that tend to be in clans) tend to be the ones with the fun jobs, getting a 30-1 KD ratio and basically having a ball. I don't have a problem with this as the roles don't interest me. (I basically lonewolf and get a decentish KD or Squad Lead and have the enjoyment of leading people to defeat other squads).

I play Euro servers, and do get the impression (never tested) that the ends of the < Milsim > -------- < Casual KD > Player spectrum are more extreme in the U.S. servers. As such the Milsim crowd probably band together a bit more, and it's less of a hobby more of a dedication (and isolation and friction understandably occurs when faced with players that don't really give a damn).

I hope I don't sound like I'm giving asset users or clans a bad time. I'm not intending to make any morality judgements, just calling the situation as I observe it.

Like I said, I either lonewolf or play SL (I usually only lonewolf in Insurgency). I personally want to see rewards for Inf SL's that match those for the other groups of players.. We tend to get the most boring and admin-based job. I personally only bear it because I enjoy people, I enjoy leading them and I enjoy seeing them both learn but also fulfil their potential (by getting themselves decent kill streaks and learning that it's good to be in a squad).

As I mentioned on a previous page, I feel that Mumble SL Channel is far too quiet nowadays and comms are the biggest problem when it comes to team cohesion (and for me, gameplay). But see that post if you haven't read it because there's no point in me repeating it.

I've waffled on a bit but it's nice to have a discussion like this with people that are also happy to discuss it.

[DDS]

dipshits building a FOB in the middle of nowhere and decide to defend it even if the entire team is cussing at them.

And that same "team" will not discuss in mumble whether a FOB should be built, offer to bring a truck and shovels to help. 2 minutes go by before games start and not a dribble about strategy (where to build a FOB). We have created what we have now. 6 commanders.

Again people are perhaps getting confused. I wasn't implying that being in a clan makes you experienced. I was stating that most experienced players are in a clan.

You may be confusing experienced with disciplined. Clan members usually are held accountable more than the average joe who has no ties or commitments. I personally find community members more or less in the same category. In clans I've been in we practice and rehearsed tactical scenarios and learned to follow the lead. It's more fun in a well run squad but can be too rigid. When I lead a squad I prefer those who generally follow instructions. Skill is secondary. Good attitude always gets you in my squad.

I'm not intending to make any morality judgements, just calling the situation as I observe it.

I'm in the same boat as you here.

Like I said, I either lonewolf or play SL (I usually only lonewolf in Insurgency). I personally want to see rewards for Inf SL's that match those for the other groups of players.. We tend to get the most boring and admin-based job.

Because of game mechanics and influx of idiots squad leading is a tough deal, commander role is dead. Unless server admins get their collective heads out of their arses and SUPPORT good squad leading and mumble communication I don't see much improvement.

[Psyrus]

Because of game mechanics and influx of idiots squad leading is a tough deal, commander role is dead. Unless server admins get their collective heads out of their arses and SUPPORT good squad leading and mumble communication I don't see much improvement.

Just as an FYI, I still command from time to time and it most certainly isn't dead. People embrace it WHEN someone steps up, but most of the antiquated players like you and I have since moved on from PR and thus there is a void of higher level role fulfillment compared to what I was accustomed to several years ago.

You want to see less '**** communication' because of 6 headless-chicken SLs on mumble? Go commander yourself and fix the problem. ??:

[DDS]

Psyrus;1852710']Just as an FYI, I still command from time to time and it most certainly isn't dead. People embrace it WHEN someone steps up, but most of the antiquated players like you and I have since moved on from PR and thus there is a void of higher level role fulfillment compared to what I was accustomed to several years ago.

You want to see less '**** communication' because of 6 headless-chicken SLs on mumble? Go commander yourself and fix the problem. ??:

You make a good point. But you are Psyrus, a PR contributor. When you go commander I dare say people pay attention. And what exactly does a commander do anymore? Sit in a UAV and watch the lemmings walk into trouble. Your value is comparable to how soon the area attack is available. Yes go squad leader and hope that another squad leader acknowledges your presence. And you make a good point again which I agree with. Step up or take up another vocation.

[Psyrus]

You make a good point. But you are Psyrus, a PR contributor. When you go commander I dare say people pay attention.

If only! I actually play under an alias (papayrus - a joke about how people used to pronounce Psyrus) these days due to having the world's worst laptop ever, and since I live in Japan now, my Psyrus.au name didn't make much sense anymore

And what exactly does a commander do anymore? Sit in a UAV and watch the lemmings walk into trouble. Your value is comparable to how soon the area attack is available.

Just like the squad-leader role, your value as commander is actually comparable to how much effort you're willing to put in.

As of 0.98 and the death of the DBmod which gave unlimited UAV time, you now have 20 minutes of UAV up-time before a 10 minute rearming time. This 20 minutes of UAV time can be used for variety of applications:

• Cache hunting
• Enemy FOB hunting
• Watching flags to relay enemy positions (both attacking and defending) so as to help your attacking/defending squads. It helps, a LOT!
• Lasing for air vehicles without fear of dying while trying to laze. Also a great vantage point (right above) so very unlikely to miss what you're lazing
• Keeping an eye on flags that have minimal defense to tell your team when they need to rush back to avoid being flag-hop-steamrolled.
• Obviously fulfilling the regular commander role of assigning squads to defend/attack and any logistic requirements that present themselves. Of course this last step is dependent on how receptive the squads are. In a server with 8 squads, I generally get at least 4 squads, if not 5-6, with good reception and comms.

During the UAV downtime, in addition to doing the regular commander comm duties, I usually run vital logistics and build backup fobs solo. As commander you can deploy any asset that a squad leader can.
===

All that being said, it's quite a tedious role, and people get testy when you've supposedly cleared an area for CAS or something but the enemy AA or cache was actually invisible due to a UAV bug (rageface) and you've kinda screwed people over. It's not for everyone, but if no one ever steps up, the situation will never get better

[Truism]

Psyrus wasn't always an RCON. Most Australians will still remember him as a pilot/squaddie/commander.

[DDS]

If only! I actually play under an alias (papayrus - a joke about how people used to pronounce Psyrus) these days due to having the world's worst laptop ever.

When people ask about my name I ask them "have you seen the movie Mystery Men?" They go what?

Ben Stiller's wanna be super hero character makes up a name for himself to sound bad ***.

"My name. Um, wow. Okay, uh?It?s ? It?s Phoenix. Phoenix Dark Dirk. Phoenix Dark-Dirk. I was uh?I was christened Dirk Steele, and I changed it to Phoenix"

When I first started gaming I just used my real first name and thought it was hilarious the names people give themselves. But friends have shortened it to DDS

I do all those things as commander but it's very frustrating. Which is why I play less and less now days.

[L4gi]

I also CO every now and then aswell. When I dont, I still tell SLs over mumble what to do. More often than not they do listen. Why? I still feel like most people want a CO but pretty much everyone is too afraid to step up.

We havent had a single new CO in the last few years rise up to legendary status like Michael Denmark, Aquiller or AFsoccer for example.

[Mikemonster]

I don't go CO because I think it'll be even more tedious than SL'ing and probably even more frustrating.. I haven't ever tried it properly though.. I don't mind bossing Squad Members around (though i'm not bossy) but I also don't like the idea of people (other SL's) HAVING to listen to me (SM's can vote with their feet and join a different squad if they aren't enjoying mine).

Assertiveness can be annoying when it comes from other SL's to be honest. This is leisure time, not a job (or a war). Getting bossed around in a PC game by another SL grates on me and I don't like to inflict it on others (unless they are trolling).

By all means though, if you're commander and make suggestions and give info to other SL's that's great. Allowing them to do what they want, in essence, but better informed and more likely to win. I would try that but I play PR to shoot people in the face (and help others to shoot an exponentially larger number of people in the face) from the front line.

I still believe that the greatest obstacle at the moment to squads talking to each other is the 'private' option on mumble of talking to other squads. It increases the quality of comms, but decreases the overall amount of speaking between squads. As humans we need to know our place in the team, and the only way to gauge other SL's in PR is to recognise them or/and hear them talking. As nobody talks in front of everyone any more, the 'team' tends not to know who each other are. Yes, there may be exceptions, but in the games I've SL'd in since the new mumble this has almost unfailingly been the case.

I would love a 'squad channel radio chatter' function in Mumble, where you can hear the other squads' direct messages to each other but at 50% volume or similar. But then, I liked the chatter we used to have, and saw it as a good source of information on both my team and whatever people were 'spamming' the 'net' about. To me it allowed me to understand who all the SL's were and how they were playing, etc.

Because it's so quiet at game start people are understandably unwilling to create a team plan for fear of being shouted down. It used to be that the SL's were all members of an exclusive club running the tea - now we mainly only talk to each other when we have to. And other SL's I talk to generally stay in touch all round - But I ALWAYS have to initiate the talking/rapport.

[DDS]

It just makes sense to me that a CO should coordinate the team in the absence of squad leads working together but it is countered by squad leaders with a mind to do what they want to do regardless.

I would like to hear admins ingame say "listen to the commander" or "thats counter productive" in mumble and chat. If they would just have our back now and then it would make a big difference in teamplay. Thats what kept me going to TG server was the enforcement of rules. And ffs pick a damn map and stop using map voting. Get involved

I suspect the reason for this lack of coordination and teamwork is that the admins lack both as well. Want to know how a manager manages? Look at who they manage.

[Mikemonster]

On the rare occasion i've had a commander the server admins have told everyone to obey him or get kicked, that's on the servers I play on though (Euro).

[Heavy Death]

Id very much like to go CO. But whats the community at? Creating CAS, ARMOR, RECON as soon as the timer hits 1:30 and then mind their own buisness. As Mike said, if there is a rule; Obey the CO or get kicked and admins actually do the admin part, it is possible to create organised teamwork. Without that rule, CO is just another player that the CAS squad will only laugh at, if he orders the squad to disband, becausehe wantds such an such INF squad first...