What's so special about Muttrah?

General discussion of the Project Reality: BF2 modification.
zombie-yellow
Posts: 395
Joined: 2012-10-26 01:07

Re: What's so special about Muttrah?

Post by zombie-yellow »

Mikemonster wrote:Suggestion apparently not allowed for discussion. If only i'd suggested something realistic to enhance realism.
lol. Frustrating isn't it ? :mrgreen:

On another note, sometimes, the devs don't seem to put something realistic in the game... But meh... Their decision wins anyway :/
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Mikemonster
Posts: 1384
Joined: 2011-03-21 17:43

Re: What's so special about Muttrah?

Post by Mikemonster »

Yes it is, it happens every time I suggest something and always has done, with nil feedback as to why.

Yet I see really stupid suggestions crop up all the time in the name of 'realism'. Like knives for pilot kits. Is that really a priority for discussion, or worthy of discussing? On a related note, the suggestion to allow pilots to be passengers was also allowed. It's really inconsistent.

Currently the .50 is represented 'realistically' but it doesn't work like it is intended to and used for in 'real life'.
Pvt.LHeureux
Posts: 4796
Joined: 2009-04-03 15:45

Re: What's so special about Muttrah?

Post by Pvt.LHeureux »

Yeah something is weird with the suggestion forums, some absurd suggestions pass but other sensefull ones can't be even discussed.
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Chuva_RD : You want to remove bugged thing but dont tell how to fill formed void.
Rhino
Retired PR Developer
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Re: What's so special about Muttrah?

Post by Rhino »

Mikemonster wrote:Yes it is, it happens every time I suggest something and always has done, with nil feedback as to why.

Yet I see really stupid suggestions crop up all the time in the name of 'realism'. Like knives for pilot kits. Is that really a priority for discussion, or worthy of discussing? On a related note, the suggestion to allow pilots to be passengers was also allowed. It's really inconsistent.

Currently the .50 is represented 'realistically' but it doesn't work like it is intended to and used for in 'real life'.
If you really want to go down this root, fine just this one time thou as its a waste of my time, which is why we don't approve these threads.

Out of all the suggestion topics you've posted in the last few months, I'll give you quick reasons why it hasn't been approved:

Give HMG's limited splash damage to simulate wall penetration.
Not going to happen because of how penetration in BF2 works. The thing you need to understand is that penetration in BF2, is nothing like penetration in r/l. When you penetrate a wall in BF2, you only have to penetrate the initial "face", in r/l, the bullet has to travel though solid matter than can be xxx thick. BF2 has no idea how thick a face is, other than what material its assigned to the face. If we suddenly made concrete walls penetrable by 50cal rounds, this would mean that 50cal rounds could penetrate entire buildings, going in one side of a non-enterable building, and coming out the other 10m away, with only loosing a bit of damage (energy) like it only passed though a few mm of wall. We could start making loads of different "wall thickness" materials, to each material that had different levels of penetration and then we could start adding them to our col meshes but this is a massive, and I do mean massive, amount of work, as not only do you need to code all these materials up and test them, but the real issue is editing all the col meshes to have this which is a serious amount of time, and something we, the devs, don't have anything like enough free time to do. As such, if this was ever going to be done, it would need to be done by someone outside of the Dev team, who knows how to do this, which is very unlikely since its not a simple skill set, only me and a few other PR Devs would know how to do this and be able to do everything involved with it, and I would have to drop all my projects for a few months to be able to do this...

Disallow either Standing OR Crouch fire for HAT to stop crouch spamming.
In BF2, the only option we have to disable firing from stances is "Only allow weapon to be fired in prone". We do not have options to disable firing in any other stances, such as only standing, only prone, etc, we can either have firing in all stances, or only firing in prone. That is the only two options we have. And only HAT with low tripos are ever fired from a prone position, and only when they are on that tripod.

Make both caches known, no Unknowns.
As per the title really, at least this way players can't do the wrong thing.

Hopefully this should give Blufor a fairer chance on maps as well as completely nullifying ghosting.

Discuss..
Was more of a discussion topic than a suggestion, as such, didn't really belong is the suggestions forum, but no big reason I can see why it wasn't approved, was most likely just missed or thought to be something we don't want.

Squad Objective markers (per Squad)
Code doesn't allow for Squad Leaders to place markers directly, as your suggesting. Markers must be done though the commander and squad leader can already use the waypoint etc markers for this.


Overall, the approval system is to weed out re-suggestions (which I'm sure some of yours are) and to cut out the ones that are not possible to do etc.

Anyways back on topic please people.
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Mikemonster
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Re: What's so special about Muttrah?

Post by Mikemonster »

Appreciate the feedback and your time - I didn't understand that about HAT. Also I didn't explain the Unknown one because it's self-explanatory.

I wasn't suggesting the .50's be given penetrative abilities, just a small splash radius like the Heli ones currently have, to allow the user to hit window edges and kill the guy crouch-spamming under the actual window-sill. For example a 1m splash damage or something sensible.
Rhino
Retired PR Developer
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Re: What's so special about Muttrah?

Post by Rhino »

Mikemonster wrote:I wasn't suggesting the .50's be given penetrative abilities, just a small splash radius like the Heli ones currently have, to allow the user to hit window edges and kill the guy crouch-spamming under the actual window-sill. For example a 1m splash damage or something sensible.
And your asking for that when your making such a big deal about giving pilots knifes and knifes being a one kill weapon?
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Mikemonster
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Re: What's so special about Muttrah?

Post by Mikemonster »

We have deviation. That's not literally realistic but it reflects how guns are used in real life.

It's a case of making something unrealistic in order to simulate a battle more realistically. Everyone accepts the theory behind this.

In the case of .50's having splash damage, it's a case of making a weapon that's not literally realistic but reflects how the guns are used in real life.

Heli's have already been given .50 cal splash damage - Because without it they are ineffective and don't (presumably) reflect their real life capabilities.

I'm not saying it's a good idea because I don't know how the game works. That's why it's a suggestion, not a demand. I'd be interested to discuss it, and if it's a stupid idea i'll be happy to learn why and walk away better educated in general.

It's the lack of discussion that gets me, through someone mis-interpreting or simplifying what I'm saying.

In the case of knives for pilots, people just wanted a new toy and presumed it was realistic because they saw a Rambo film or three. If anyone had talked to one of the 'military advisors' (that PR used to implement the technically unrealistic deviation) they'd realise how silly a suggestion it is if it's in the name of 'realism'.

Edit:

PR is a big complex mod made by a big team and there are going to be conflicts between reflecting reality, engine limitations, toys people want to see, and gameplay.

But it's important to know for which of these reasons each thing is or isn't implemented.

If people want to kid themselves with some realism argument when really they resist or support something for one of the other reasons they should be corrected and told which concession it's actually in the name of.

I don't want PR to be a milsim btw, I like it as it is, an arcade game with a slight bias towards simulating a high-tempo battlefield. I understand because of this there will always be room for improvement of some things at the expense of others.. As such you can't just add something without it impacting other things. The whole reality vs gameplay thing.
Last edited by Mikemonster on 2013-02-02 20:06, edited 4 times in total.
SnipeHunt
Posts: 801
Joined: 2009-02-02 15:35

Re: What's so special about Muttrah?

Post by SnipeHunt »

Mikemonster wrote:...It's the lack of discussion that gets me, through someone mis-interpreting or simplifying what I'm saying.
Perhaps you could start your 'suggestion' as a 'what do you think about this' thread in the general section to get discussion and perhaps support for your idea. I am sure the mods might lock it down if you make it sound like a suggestion, so make the thread in the interest of discussion and modification into what could be a future suggestion.

edit: sorry off-topic
Best line yet...
Me: "Hey APC, Can I get a ride to squad 6?"
Unknown: "This APC ain't no Taxi!"
Rhino
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 47909
Joined: 2005-12-13 20:00

Re: What's so special about Muttrah?

Post by Rhino »

I'm not going to argue with this you on this Mike since this is the wrong topic to do it in and its not worth it but one thing I will say is:
Mikemonster wrote:Heli's have already been given .50 cal splash damage - Because without it they are ineffective and don't (presumably) reflect their real life capabilities.
This is because the Kiowa etc, commonly uses explosive rounds with their 50cals in r/l, which we have on good authority from both our MAs and a Kiowa pilot.

Anyways people please get back on topic...
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ToonS
Posts: 214
Joined: 2009-03-08 01:28

Post by ToonS »

I wouldn't call the PR team big, the current active roster of DEV's is not that large.
Also, if they are in here debating continuously on the various suggestions and providing detailed explanations on why or why not something can be implemented, that is less of there spare time that they are spending working on the 1.0 release. At this time, I know which I'd prefer to see them doing.


Back on topic, even after all this time and all of the replays of muttrah, it is still one of my favored maps.
Yes, it's linear. Yes, there is only so many ways to move, to place fob's, etc, and everyone knows the same info.

To me, this is what makes it fun and challenging. Your limited in your movements and approaches, and it comes down to who is thinking quicker.

Granted, it could do with a little work, maybe more debris on the streets or some other cosmetic things for more cover and movement. I hope to see a new version one day, but there is a lot of other things I want to see happen before that.
MrAidanPreston
Posts: 19
Joined: 2013-01-12 11:55

Re: What's so special about Muttrah?

Post by MrAidanPreston »

Gracler wrote:I wonder why every night Muttrah is almost always the "safe" choice at the end of the night and it is really starting to bother me why this overplayed map is being picked so often.

what is the reason that so many people like this map so much over other maps?
  • is it the CAS Cobra?
  • is it the clean streets making it impossible to hide in grass for example?
  • is it the sniper opportunities?
  • people not familiar with the names of other maps?
  • no one likes change of environment?
  • or other reasons?
Personally i change server or quit whenever Muttrah is on because it has been played so many times and all strategies have been spent on it. Nothing can surprise me on it.... maybe that's what people like... no surprises... just a aim and shoot environment, and not getting shot from an unknown direction.

What I'm hoping to see is that some servers return to a rotation of maps and stick with it, the speech used by many admins that "this map kills the server" cant really be used as an argument for Muttrah... Muttrah also kills servers if only a bit over 1/3 voted for it and won.

If a server starts to loose players its gonna die eventually anyway, unless if another populated server goes down.

And a last point.... Does admins ever check there neighbour servers for what maps they are currently running before doing a vote? ending up with 3-4 servers in the same timezone with the same map only gives the choise of play this map or play another game.... like ofcourse ARMA 2 PR :-D

Would it help to have a database with all maps including info about vehicle spawns and flag layouts to get someone more intrested in the other maps?
To be honest muttrah is one of my favourite due to the high amount of helicopters :) and the in air action :D I also really love Burning Sands.. because of the chinooks :D
DesmoLocke
Posts: 1770
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Re: What's so special about Muttrah?

Post by DesmoLocke »

I'm ready for Muttrah v3 !!!
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PR player since 0.5 (Feb 2007)

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