CAS helicopters are OP

[Heavy Death]

So the consensus that you all have arrived at, from my perspective:

-The ability of helicopters to dive on targets (and survive) should be reduced in some way, probably with a tweak to physics.
-Attack helos are not keen on flying low to engage targets due not only to AA dangers, but to surface-to-surface weapons, thus relying on diving tactics, or engaging targets known to not have AA cover.
-One of the main "working" counters to diving helicopters is other helicopters, thanks to their carried air-to-air missiles. Once these are gone, opponent is perceived as having air superiority (even though well-used AA will make clear otherwise).

Less consensus:
-Attack Helicopters are strong, but their thin skin helps level the playing field. (Except for CAS Hueys, which, by the way, we're fixing.)

This sound about right?

Yes, choppers themselves arent so OP, its the comparison to real life counterpart that makes them look ridiculously OP. Only so much can be done with this engine, sadly, so i hope you get the most out of it.

[chrisweb89]

Why should aircraft be trying to kill Anti-Aircraft again? You dont see tanks and IFv hunting for HATs and TOWs, they are scared of them as they should be. Why are not CAS choppers scared of AA in the same way, why they dont let the rest of the team kill it for them?

I hunt TOWs and HATs all the time in armour, if a teammate spots it I am going to try to kill it.

Yes, choppers themselves arent so OP, its the comparison to real life counterpart that makes them look ridiculously OP. Only so much can be done with this engine, sadly, so i hope you get the most out of it.

I don't get what you are saying here, RL attack choppers are even more powerful than they are in this game. Attack choppers are expected to destroy 17 times it's production cost (Role and Control of Weapons in the 1990s - Frank Barnaby - Google Books).

[Professorson]

I'm a pro pilot and gunner anyone can verify this

joking right ?

[Jafar Ironclad]

Let's be careful with the thread, guys. Less at each other, more at yourselves and your observations. Experience and skill are assumed.

We're getting a lot of useful feedback here, so let's keep it to that.

And yes, the reality is that were attack helicopters (and fixed-wing aircraft, really) modelled to their full real-life footprint, ground battles would be pointless; it'd just be a shooting gallery for the gunships. Our main ace in the hole here in constraining their power is view distance, as well as invincible structures (not that we have much choice with either). The attack helicopter's effective strike range (and ground AA ability to return fire) aren't going to be getting changed all that much.

Those of you who have remained civil and on-topic here, you have my heartfelt thanks. Hopefully I'll have a chance to answer some of your concerns in an upcoming Devcast.

[40mmrain]

How the hell is it the assets fault?

by being capable of tactics that facilitate that of course. Jets simply are incapable of those tactics because they require lazes. Tanks are incapable of going alone because their counters are numerous, and they are usually more successful not alone. Helicopters are capable of going alone, so they do.

For example a tank battalion could have 3 tanks together, and an AAV. This requires cohesion between two squads. However in current PR, one helicopter, which is only part of one squad would easily counter that. However with improved AA, and physics, then it would require a spotter team, or a separate squad leader lazing. So two squads together beats two. In the same regard, if the tanks didnt have an AAV squad to work with them, then it would only require 1 squad, the helicopter to defeat them. But wait there's more, if the tank squad were to be a hybrid of tank and AAV at once, then they would be shorthanded tanks, and be defeated by enemy armour that works with friendly AAVs, and thus we see more teamwork would be conducive to victory, which is the goal of PR.

[chrisweb89]

by being capable of tactics that facilitate that of course. Jets simply are incapable of those tactics because they require lazes. Tanks are incapable of going alone because their counters are numerous, and they are usually more successful not alone. Helicopters are capable of going alone, so they do.

For example a tank battalion could have 3 tanks together, and an AAV. This requires cohesion between two squads. However in current PR, one helicopter, which is only part of one squad would easily counter that. However with improved AA, and physics, then it would require a spotter team, or a separate squad leader lazing. So two squads together beats two. In the same regard, if the tanks didnt have an AAV squad to work with them, then it would only require 1 squad, the helicopter to defeat them. But wait there's more, if the tank squad were to be a hybrid of tank and AAV at once, then they would be shorthanded tanks, and be defeated by enemy armour that works with friendly AAVs, and thus we see more teamwork would be conducive to victory, which is the goal of PR.

Are you joking that the attack choppers don't have numerous counters? They are super fragile, especially for their offensive power. One AAV and 3 tanks isn't easily countered by 1 attack chopper. It requires intel, lases and the AAV not staying hidden. The way I see tanhk combat most of the time is if you can't kill it with 2 tanks, you can't kill it wih 3 either. When I do run tank squads I run an AAv with them so 2 tanks, and an AAV and it is well worth the trade off.

[ShockUnitBlack]

This could all go back to chrisweb's previous suggestion in favor of removing helicopter AA missiles.

[Stemplus]

For example a tank battalion could have 3 tanks together, and an AAV. This requires cohesion between two squads. However in current PR, one helicopter, which is only part of one squad would easily counter that. However with improved AA, and physics, then it would require a spotter team, or a separate squad leader lazing. So two squads together beats two. In the same regard, if the tanks didnt have an AAV squad to work with them, then it would only require 1 squad, the helicopter to defeat them. But wait there's more, if the tank squad were to be a hybrid of tank and AAV at once, then they would be shorthanded tanks, and be defeated by enemy armour that works with friendly AAVs, and thus we see more teamwork would be conducive to victory, which is the goal of PR.

Wait wait wait...

- If you are running 2 tanks and 1 AAV, then you can't get attacked by enemy chopper. If the enemy is doing the same, then you have a fair 2v2 tank fight.
- If you are running 2 tanks + AAV and enemy is running 3 tanks and no AAV, you call CAS on him, CAS is happy and you are safe.
- If you are running 3 tanks and no AAV, you get killed by enemy CAS, which is completely fine.

I don't see how you need 2 squads for this to be fair. Indeed, choppers and AAs need some tweaks, but I don't see this more unfair than a squad running 2 BMPs and 1 AAV. They can kill FOBs with HEFRAG, they can kill tanks with ATGMs, they can kill APCs with AP, they can kill infantry with HE, they can kill choppers/jets with AAV. I don't see how this is less OP than a chopper that takes 5-10 AP hits or a single AA missile to die.

[MADsqirrel]

To be honest i dont think CAS choppers are OP.
The effectiveness of the chopper is dependent of the skill of the crew.
Choppers can hunt alone yes, but its never as effective as it is with spotters on the ground.
With a good spotter and lazes it is extremly hard for the enemy to counter your CAS. But a CAS chopper hunting on its own is a lot less dangerous but good enough to hunt down solo Tanks/APCs or single FOBs, but only if the enemy team isnt aware of the threat (or when nobody wants to do AA)
Communication and Teamwork are the Keys!

[chrisweb89]

I hate doing CAS without a competant spotter, even with the team giving intel and possibly lases I would always rather have a spotter who's full time job is giving me shit to blow up, and trying to keep me alive without worrying about an inf squad to lead.

A roaming chopper flying without intel is often a dead one even in the open deserts of kashan if someone is smart enough to use it's counter, AA. Just like that tank doing the super 1337 flank around the map dies pretty easy to a smart HAT or TOW.

[[F|H]Zackyx]

Tanks are incapable of going alone because their counters are numerous, and they are usually more successful not alone. Helicopters are capable of going alone, so they do.

Now im sure you have absolutely no clue what you're saying Try to find you own target agaisnt a decent team in muttrah you will be dead instantly, try to scout above Kashan bunker the same, try above burning sands city ....

Only way to find you own target with cas chopper is to fly a medium altitude on edges of the map to find lone wolf tanks or to scout uncapable flags for fobs or mortars flyng above the front line below the visual range is suicide and useless.

Cas need spoters ! maybe you played to much Coop and your confused between Deployment and coop

Notice: User warned for insulting other forum users

[Jafar Ironclad]

Let's be careful with the thread, guys. Less at each other, more at yourselves and your observations.

Zackyx;1860956']Now im sure you have absolutely no clue what you're saying Try to find you own target agaisnt a decent team in muttrah you will be dead instantly, try to scout above Kashan bunker the same, try above burning sands city ....

Only way to find you own target with cas chopper is to fly a medium altitude on edges of the map to find lone wolf tanks or to scout uncapable flags for fobs or mortars flyng above the front line below the visual range is suicide and useless.

Cas need spoters ! maybe you played to much Coop and your confused between Deployment and coop

I see the point you are trying to make, Zackyx, but I believe you could have made it in a nicer tone.

We're starting to go around in circles discussion-wise, and I'm sensing some hostility going around, so I have locked this thread while its good. I believe all of the essential ground on this subject has been covered. Stay tuned for discussion of changes in a future devcast.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!