Sniper weaponry, and Project Reality.

ir0nside · Post by **ir0nside** » 2005-06-15 19:32

Sniper weaponry.

As of now, in Battlefield 2, they are horribly implemented. This is not a whine, but simply a matter-of-fact! I am quite capable with both of them, as from the crane, I can kill anyone on the battlefield given they are in my line of sight. This includes having killed targets printing horizontally across my perspective from the crane to the western USMC outpost (by the river). Sure, it's hard.. but I have done it. I am easily the sniper with the best kill/death ratio I've seen yet in the Demo, averaging about 10-1 kills per death. This is an average, and yes it does vary. My personal best as of yet, no exaggeration, is 33-2, having died once to a really pissed off commander using artillery.

I am not bragging, rather I am trying to make a point that I am not unskilled, and merely whining and begging for change where it is not needed. I am hoping that in Project Reality, sniper weaponry is handled correctly.

As of now, the coding for weaponry is very 'random'. I can make the same exact shot twice, and have one kill, and one complete miss. I can be aiming at a stationary target roughly 200m away, dead on - and miss the shot. I have wasted two clips before from the crane (yes, I use the crane a lot in my examples, as it is a great point of reference) to the hotel flag, on a guy sitting in the Stinger emplacement before. Obviously, he is nearly immobile, but seeing as I am a rather impressive shot as of yet in Battlefield 2, missing ten shots with the m95 on the target is unnacceptable.

We are talking about guns with 1 MOA or less, here. Take into account that we are talking about 200-400m distances at most, and you can see how these guns are performing horribly.

My suggestions are as follows.

Disadvantages:

1) In long range firing, things that most people take for granted, have a dramatic impact on aim. Breathing, and heartbeat. Both of these can affect the aim of the sniper a great deal, and only through training can one overcome these obstacles. There is no scope sway in Battlefield 2, and that is something that frankly, is a necessity. We need some rather tough scope sway, with about a one second pause on the lower and upper limits.

2) These effects should be greatly increased after the sniper runs, and sprints. A sniper should not be able to sprint, go prone, then subsequently fire off accurate shots. Snipers need to learn to utilize good cover, avoid obvious vantage points, and avoid moving a lot. After running, the scope-sway effects need to be amplified 30% for 15 seconds. After sprinting, the scope-sway effects need to be amplified 50% for 15 seconds. This keeps snipers from being able to run and gun, and it forces them into a solid supporting role, as well as forcing them to be intelligent with placement.

3) These guns should have far more scope-kick when they fire. The SVD is the example I will use, as currently it is the only weapon which you can fire off repeatedly while in scope view. It has very little kick when firing off many rounds. Coupled with the lack of scope-sway, it is basically a long range single shot assault rifle. I have massacred people below me trying to capture flags with this weapon, using it as an assault weapon. The kick should be noticeable.

Improvements:

1) We need these weapons to be accurate. They should have very little deviation in shot placement, some less so than others. He M24 should be the single most accurate rifle available at these ranges, with the SVD falling a bit behind, but retaining it's quick firing capability.

2) The M24 currently forces you out of the scope view when you chamber a new round. This is not realistic. The scope-kick, coupled with scope-sway, should prove challenging enough without forcing the sniper to unrealistically lose his scoped view while chambering a round. Reloading the gun would of course force you to lose the scoped view.

3) More killing power. If you get hit with a sniper rifle in real life, you're out of the battle. Almost assuredly, you are dead - but you are most defenitely out of the fight. Now, take into account a weapon such as the M95. You are dead, regardless of where you got hit. You can take a round in the thigh, and it will most likely obliterate you. If you've ever seen the victim of a .50 caliber round before, you'll need no further clarification as to why. These weapons currently do the same amount of damage - The M24, SVD, M95.. all the same.

I have an interesting method of having them all remain one shot kill, yet maintain a bit of uniqueness between them. Smaller caliber rifles (SVD, m24, currently) should cause incapacitation, but should allow the Medic to revive as per normal. Larger caliber rifles (m95, currently) should cause instant death, as if you got hit with an artillery strike, or a tank round.. and so forth, with no chance of medic revival. (( Read below for a small note on Medic revival ability ))

4) The anti-material rifles such as the M95 need to have a good deal of material penetration. I have noticed that it can shoot through some materials, but not others. An M95 round can penetrate an standard concrete wall clean through and continue penetration through other materials such as cars, trucks, houses, and so forth. It should be able to disable all personnel carriers, with varying degrees of effectiveness. 1 shot for LDVs, 2 shots for Hummers, and so on.

Now, as for the Medics, and their revive ability. I feel that Medics will be hard pressed to do their job well in Project Reality if they are kept as is. Having to dash out to revive a friend in a matter of seconds will lead to most medics getting cut down by heavier firepower, more realistic damage, more accurate weaponry, and so forth. To balance this, and to make things more realistic, I feel that when players are incapacitated, that they do not die in such a short amount of time. Perhaps it should be 30 seconds long? That would their squads time to suppress incoming fire, so that the medic can do their job - just like in real life.

I feel that these various changes, when combined.. would provide for a realistic sniper role in the game, which is more challenging due to a need for skill, rather than due to frustrating randomness and downright lack of effectiveness. Players would be unable to run and gun as a sniper, and would have to utilize experience to become lethal on the field.

This allows for those whom have spent the time honing their skills as a sniper to present a large thread on the field to the enemy and their resources, rather than being seen as either overpowered and annoying, or entirely useless and a detriment to their team.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2005-06-15 19:46

You sure sound like you know what your talking about and i agree with just about everything you have to say, the sniper rifles are very iffy as far as aiming goes and the no scope sway is rediculous and there is definitly a need for more killing power with these weapons.

I dont know if youve seen the thread that talks about the medic and how that revival ability should work but youre thinking along the same lines as that with your revival thought.

ir0nside · Post by **ir0nside** » 2005-06-15 20:10

Thanks for the comments.

I thought of a small clarification which I think would suffice; when I mentioned material penetration for high caliber rifles, and the disabling of personnel carriers...

.. I feel that the APCs should take 5 rounds to disable. This would force a person wielding an m95 to reload ther clip prior to engaging, and it would force them to land every shot. For example, if they had only 4 rounds in their magazine, or if they missed a shot, that would have damaged the APC to the point where the alarms would be blaring and everyone would evacuate before he could reload in time to finish it off with people inside.

Just figured I'd add that thought in here before I get too many responses.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2005-06-15 20:22

welll how far can a rifle go in the actual total destruction of an armored vehicle?
Ive heard of .50 cal snipers disabling them in 1 shot but ive never heard of them actually destroying it. as for the ammount of shots it takes to disable i think with a good eye and realism permitting in should be as little as 1

ir0nside · Post by **ir0nside** » 2005-06-15 20:44

Well, when I mention the disabling of vehicles, that is a realm of gameplay that has to be tread upon lightly. There are lots of vehicles in the game, and I view the sniper as what he damned well is - infantry support. I believe that he should be able to hamper light vehicles if he had a high caliber rifle, just as in real life - however, there are things that can in fact be done in real life which would be very imbalancing in this game.

Snipers wielding anti-material rifles are known to knock out the sights on enemy tanks, which for all intensive purposes, renders the tank inoperable. This forces engineers to repair the damage, which gets them killed, as well. One shot to an engine block of any light vehicle will kill the vehicle in real life. A .50 caliber round does not interact in a "hold hands" fashion with mechanical parts! *grins*

We have to give them the option to perform engage in the capabilities of their rifle, an anti-material rifle in this case.. without causing a great deal of imbalance. The only reason I suggested they blow up is that I cannot forsee them being 'disabled' by a sniper rifle. Perhaps this could be coded in.. but that seems like an awful lot of work just for the rifle. I figured that it doing a good amount of damage to light vehicles would suit the purpose fine.

Thanks again for the feedback. Hope to see much more from you all.

TaZ · Post by **TaZ** » 2005-06-15 21:06

i absolutly love the suggestions. I'm slightly bored with the same map over and over, and therefore havent played it enough to gather ideas like such. However, reading these ideas gives me plenty of enjoyment.

There is one question i have. I'm not all that familar with the bf2 engine and what it can do. Will it allow this kind of coding(Ex: Scope sway, etc...)?

IF it does, wow, i see a whole realm of possibilities.

ir0nside · Post by **ir0nside** » 2005-06-15 21:25

Oh, another thing I forgot to mention, is the need for adjustable zoom levels. The zoom in game is simply horrible, at a 2x level. In comparrison, some of my airsoft carbines have more than 2x zoom, and they are for close to medium engagement ranges.

On a 32 player map, you can only see people as very miniscule figures halfway across the region (from crane to beach). This is half the distance of a 32 player map - imagine how bad it'd be in a 64 player map.

Zazane · Post by **Zazane** » 2005-06-15 22:01

Good post chief, although there is vehicle disabling to an extent(not had a chance to do a lot of reading on features of the bf2 engine but if it retains some similarities with the 42 engine then it should work) When a tank(for example) reaches 0% health it loses the ability to move, the turret traverse speed is reduced and a fire starts in the engine bay while the vehicle loses health before blowing up when the health reaches a preset negative value.

For disabling the humvee, a second hitbox within the first which will cause major damage when hit, material 2 can only be penetrated by rounds of a certain calibre. To make things more interesting, you could make hits on material 2 cause little to no damage to the health of the vehicle unless the munitions striking are explosive.

As for the amount of time a medic has to revive a downed soldier, The spawn times for PR will be a lot longer than vanilla bf2 so squads will be able to arrange covering fire so medics don't go on suicide missions.

ir0nside · Post by **ir0nside** » 2005-06-15 22:10

Well, I was unaware that there were specific hit-boxes on vehicles in the Battlefield engine. If that is the case, well damn! Anti-material rifles should be able to disable specific vehicles in a single, well-placed shot.

Are these hit-areas configurable? Can you guys code extra hit areas in, with varying effects? This could have far reaching applications!

Zazane · Post by **Zazane** » 2005-06-15 22:39

ir0nside wrote:Well, I was unaware that there were specific hit-boxes on vehicles in the Battlefield engine. If that is the case, well damn! Anti-material rifles should be able to disable specific vehicles in a single, well-placed shot.

Are these hit-areas configurable? Can you guys code extra hit areas in, with varying effects? This could have far reaching applications!

Yeah man, an example in DC are the wings on the helos, you can hit them with pretty much anything and you wont get the kill. This was due to people hitting and destroying their own chopper when firing hellfires at high rotational speeds.

Post by **Wolfmaster** » 2005-06-16 10:05

i like your suggestions a lot. they would certainly make this mod realistic. there have also been some other topics related to snipers/aiming. like these:

http://realitymod.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=931&

http://realitymod.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1118&

http://realitymod.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1135&

you might enjoy reading those.

keef_haggerd · Post by **keef_haggerd** » 2005-06-17 07:31

i love all of ironsides suggestions, i think the way AA has sniper with the little breath thing is great! well its not just sniping, but i havent played it in awhile.

CoD had scope sway that was pretty realistic to me, except fo the fact that it was CONTANT, there needs to be a 1 second period where it is completely stead i beleive.

one thing i dont agree on, is the 1 shot 1 kill thing he is talking about. it think only torso and head shots should kill, arm and leg hit boxes should do about... 50-75% damage. also, if its possible to make a HEART hit box? because someone could be shot in the stomach by a sniper and still survive (i imagine correct me if im wrong) maybe give sniper rifles a 1/4 chance that they will instantly kill someone shot in the torso. make the other 3/4 chance a 80% damage maybe even higher, and of course if not treated immediatly they will bleed to death.

thats my 2 cents

SGT-Kwint[75thR] · Post by **SGT-Kwint[75thR]** » 2005-06-17 08:55

All true, While playing AA for a while I have not come across any game which uses breathing and timed shots that much as AA. The sniper is very realistic when it comes to acquiring a target after a short sprint or so. And thatâ$™s we are missing in BF2, no breathing influence, almost the same hitrates without ironsight and with. And the other thing is jumping, in BF2 you can jump as your legs where made of rubber! Eh? The stamina bar should decrease a lot after jumping 3 times in a row. Preferably to 0.

ir0nside · Post by **ir0nside** » 2005-06-17 17:35

Well, I was unaware that the hit-boxes on players could be adjusted, so by all means, make it so that arms/legs and such do not do full damage! Make it torso/head shots only which are instant incapacitation/death.

I am all for that.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2005-06-17 21:56

well remember if you get hit in the leg or arm with a bullett, youre out of the fight, no two ways about it. as for getting hit in the stomach, the sniper rifles these days are probably gunna tear out everything in there, so youre probably dead anyway. the human body in the torso is packed with organs, even stuff that isnt directly in the way of the bullett is gunna get wrecked so anything head or torso should usually put the guy down, maybe if you have the heart hitbox, stuff that hits in the stomach should allow for the medic to revive you, but after being wounded your aim and stamina should be lowered untill you get to an aid station that can be placed at a main base.

correct me if im wrong.

TaZ · Post by **TaZ** » 2005-06-17 22:03

I tested the sniper bullet drop, seems like all the screenshots work. Just place your crosshairs right above the guy.

Tactical Advantage · Post by **Tactical Advantage** » 2005-06-18 01:41

Absolutly Wonderful...

I love these suggestions, I myself am an avide sniper, ever thing from paintball to video games, Altough I have not had a chance to play BF2, I have played BFV, AA and many other military style games. One thing I would like to point out though, is that in 99% of militray games is that it is always about "killing" the person, that is not real war, one of the goals of war is not to kill the enemy, but to disable/wound the enemy to the point where he or she is not willing/able to fight anymore, unlike many of the movies Hollywood gives us, were not fighting terrorist here, were fighting Orgainized Militaries here, and it is a crime of war to willing kill a prisoner of war or wounded soldier. Im sure many of us here have seen the videos of American Soldiers(God Bless Them) giving medical aid to wounded enemies who only minutes before were trying to kill them. What I'm trying to say here, and I'd like to point out here, is one thing one of you said, where if a .50 caliber round hit's your arm, yes, you may be alive, but do you honestly think you'll be able to preform your duties as a soldier, a .50 cal round, striking your bone in your arm, is going to shatter it like a glass plate, and if your arm isnt blown off at impact, there wont be much holding it on...

So I belive that If a heavy caliber round hits your arm or leg, it should be imdiate black out, and you should bleed faster than if you were hit by a smaller caliber round because obviously your gonna bleed more and in conjuction with that, die faster.

It's the small details like this, and the ones mentioned, that not only give a sniper a truely effective role in combat, but install a since of fear into the enemy that no other type of weapon can, and if PR could install that since of psyhcological fear in this amazing Mod, this would not only be a game... but an experince And I belive that is what we all want, an Experince

Tactical Advantage

P.S. By the way, I got a break off camp for the weekend, i'll be here till Sunday Afternoon, and well to say the least, you guys have done a great this past week, keep it up.

TCS · Post by **TCS** » 2005-06-18 02:14

The theory behind wounding the enemy rather than kill them is to damage the team in more than one way. You kill a guy, the rest of them keep on marching (the US would try to take care of the body, others may not... it's tough to simulate this part in gameplay.)

You wound a guy and at least one of his buddies now has to help him. You've taken 2 people out of the fight. You've also done something psychologically to the rest of the team - they have to live with a wounded buddy, see the gore & hear the pain. Many landmines were designed with this in mind, wounded soldiers can be more devastating than killed soldiers. I imagine some sniper missions would have the same objective. Nothing more demoralizing than having your buddies falling around you and you don't why, or if you're next, and now you must help the wounded stay alive.

In a realistic situation, a wounded player would be incapacitated if not dead. His mobility would be reduced or lost. His ability to return fire would be reduced or lost. He'd require constant attention if his team wanted him to live. If a medic can't "revive" him in place, he'd need to be evacuated to the main base for treatment. I don't know if a 2-man carry can be put into the game, but it would be the only way to get a wounded man back to medical help in many situations. Either that or call for a vehicle and be able to put him inside to be driven back.

Post by **Wolfmaster** » 2005-06-18 06:56

yeah, the idea of wounding instead of killing sounds great. i can imagine that. but of course that's still up to the players to decide. maybe when the mod is out some of the guys who know how the real army works should post a sort of realism guide of what tactics are really used, what is the best combination to put in a squad etc...

Psycho_Sam · Post by **Psycho_Sam** » 2005-06-18 11:31

If thats the case it would be cool for PR to model up some field ambulances for the side to transport wounded men in.

http://www.lrm.co.uk/archive/military/ambulance.html