What if kits were worth tickets too?

[Mouthpiece]

I don't like this idea. If a team has bad players who get killed a lot or waste heavy team assets why compound the punishment further. Could possibly work only with a more experienced player base

Agree. It would in some cases spoil fun for others.

[Lange]

Langes revised Idea:

Someone beat me to the punch I was actually going to suggest making certain kits worth more tickets to make life seem more valuable in PR based on role than it is currently as it means little to die at any point. For now however here is my own idea I came up with:

Roles and ticket loss outline

Highest valueMost valuable field personel, officer being a field officer and death or wounded being a big impact to the faction in combat, A officer death is a big deal in RL, much more than in PR. In battle if you loose an officer you are loosing important leaders and important people valuable to your faction, moreso than just a grunt. Some way to simulate this should be given to show the impact of loosing an officer as stated above.and the sniper being a highly specialized valuable soldier with a death being a huge impact: including Officer and Sniper: -2 wounded -3 dead -5 total

High valueSpecialized equipment soldiers with only 2 kits per team, ticket loss simulating a detriment to the team to loose said specialist also including combat Medic who is a valuable specialized soldier, including, HAT, AA, Medic, and Combat Engineer and vehicle pilot and crewman, vehicle and crewman being included as being specially trained and to encourage evac and survival more:
-2 wounded -2 dead -4 total

Medium Value These include other specialized infantry roles above just a rifleman or normal soldier for the team with ticket loss showing resources and life lost to the team but not as determental as the other roles, including: Rifleman AT, Rifleman AP, Marksman, Grenadier, Rifleman Specialist and any other requestable kit, -1 wounded -2 dead 3 total .

Average Value This is including the rifleman kit. The rifleman being a basic footsoldier has the least value asset and equipment wise to the team but a loss of life is still sigificant and should keep reflectant of current ticket loss:
-1 wounded -1 dead -2 total

Additional information:

Dead dead values should reflect the total values.
Analysis:

I emphasized most ticket loss for being dead because the actual death meaning the most loss because the soldier is then a complete casuality, while wounded means the soldier is still leaving in PR but combat ineffective which is less loss of resources and life than a complete death and to give players more a chance to revive and avoid heavier ticket losses.

Many people so far have commented this maybe too advanced of an idea for the community and that may be true, some changes in other areas maybe would need to take place in order to make this idea more effective but if implimented will show more value of life in PR based on soldier role to more reflect real life.


With more tickets lost for specialized kits, it may encourage players to stick to rifleman unless another kit is essential, and for squad leaders to player less aggressively in leading a fight and have their squad mates protect them better and by value.

Tickets could be adjusted accordingly but gameplay should still reflect loss of life and show consequences for such.

Will combine this and also vehicle ticket loss ideas at a later date.

[Pvt.LHeureux]

Suicide cost tickets :

This is quite stupid, people that want to end the game faster will make a suicide squad and just suicide so it gets over with.


Kits cost tickets :

This is great, but it should only be limited to certain kits, like the crewman/pilot kits.

Not really, because it means if you rescue the crew, you don't loose any tickets, just have to wait for the asset to respawn...

THIS x1000

Remove the ticket cost of vehicles that require a crew, make the crewman/pilot kits tickets worthy. This way if the crew survives, the team doesn't lose tickets for the vehicle's death, allowing rescue missions that actually have a purpose

Also, if a bug occur where the vehicle explodes because it gets stuck but the crew gets out, then not tickets are lost from a bug or glitch!

This should be in for 1.0!

[Gracler]

Making specialized kit's cost extra ticket's creates more problems than it solves in my opinion.

1. It may not be possible in a reasonable amount of time, to change ticket cost into stuff you pickup from the ground only what you spawn as.
2. In the case point 1 is false then it could be exploited to drop your kit before you die or an enemy could farm/steal points from the enemy by sniping whoever picks up a special kit.
3. Public players won't realize how many tickets they lose for the team or they won't care.
4. It would be very easy to find ways around how to avoid the loss of tickets for a commander, or squad leader if its there role that matters....they could just resign before dien or also drop the kit unless some fancy python code was made.

I think I could list a lot more "gaps" in this "on the paper" good idea that would make it fail.

I would like to see the suicide button increased to 2 or 3 tickets though instead of just 1. 10 tickets would be making it easy for trolls to end a game.

Remove the ticket cost of vehicles that require a crew, make the crewman/pilot kits tickets worthy. This way if the crew survives, the team doesn't lose tickets for the vehicle's death, allowing rescue missions that actually have a purpose

People will abandon vehicles much more frequently in the middle of nowhere or even use all spare vehicles for rushing only to bail out and change kit to rifleman or even worse crash/flip there own vehicle on purpose so it explodes and re-spawns in main. If its possible to keep a high ticket mark on whoever been driving or gunning a vehicle this thing could work okay.... but if not this would also be exploited a lot. I'm afraid this isn't an easy solution for "black Hawk Down" scenarios "leave no man behind", but would just create more odd behavior, unless it's really well thought through.

[Pvt.LHeureux]

I don't think you see well how kits + tickets work.

The way kits in PR work right now :

When dieing in a vehicle, the kits instantly disappear.
When dropping/dieing with/ the kit it takes, I think, 5 mins to disappear and be ready to be requested again.


If you die with your kit when someones kills you, you don't lose tickets for the kit, because the kit stays on the ground for like 5 mins. You will lose the tickets once the kit disappear and gets back in the "request space". So dropping the crewman/pilot kits to grab a rifleman kit will still make you lose tickets, because that crewman kit that you wasted for a rifleman kit will disappear after 5 mins.

But the thing is that when in a vehicle and dying, the kit instantly disappear because it's in the vehicle.

So there won't be people camping kits to kill you once you grab it, that wouldn't make sense, because when you grab a kit you refresh it's life time back to 5 min. The thing is not to have a different ticket value on the player wearing the kit, but on the kit ITSELF. So players don't matter if they die with it, as long as the kit itself doesn't disappear.

That's why kits that cost tickets should only be crewman/pilot kits.

[Gracler]

So there won't be people camping kits to kill you once you grab it, that wouldn't make sense, because when you grab a kit you refresh it's life time back to 5 min. The thing is not to have a different ticket value on the player wearing the kit, but on the kit ITSELF. So players don't matter if they die with it, as long as the kit itself doesn't disappear.

That's why kits that cost tickets should only be crewman/pilot kits.

So if only pilot or crewman kit's cost tickets and they last for 5 min if that person die you want a squad to move in and recover that kit (one squad-member pick up the crewman kit) and make it back to base and hand it to the dedicated crewman, as if he was a VIP... interesting...but a bit odd. I could imagine a crewman who died will spawn nearby as rifleman and try desperately to recover his kit unless if suicide penalty is raised.
The medic chopper from the Vietnam mod would serve a purpose, though only for other pilots or crewmen "kits".

very easy to grief as you could "request" crewman kits every 2 min and just leave them on the ground wasting your team perhaps 5-10 tickets every 2 min and no one would notice except on replay, but could be fixed if you could only spawn as pilot/crewman i guess, but then you could easily get in a situation where you have the kit and you don't need it or maybe you need it and you would have to suicide to get it. (like with insurgent officers that don't lose tickets but intel)
Better yet if crewman/pilot can only be requested from main-base supply depot. If a kit was requested and not used someone would probably notice and report. (more work for the poor admins)

[Pvt.LHeureux]

So if only pilot or crewman kit's cost tickets and they last for 5 min if that person die you want a squad to move in and recover that kit (one squad-member pick up the crewman kit) and make it back to base and hand it to the dedicated crewman, as if he was a VIP... interesting...but a bit odd. I could imagine a crewman who died will spawn nearby as rifleman and try desperately to recover his kit unless if suicide penalty is raised.
The medic chopper from the Vietnam mod would serve a purpose, though only for other pilots or crewmen "kits".

Nah, what would mostly happen is this :


Situation 1 :

APC is rolling, takes HAT shot, dies. The ticket cost of both the gunner and driver kits are lost instantly, just like it is now in PR.


Situation 2: :

APC is rolling, takes LAT shot, is in fire about to explode. Crew bails out, secure the area/flee, ask for transport back to base. No tickets lost.


Situation 3 :

APC is rolling, takes LAT shot, is in fire about to explode. Crew bails out, crew is killed after bailing. Kits fall on the ground, after 5 mins the kits disappear and the tickets are lost.


SO bailing out of vehicles and surviving would actually mean something now and would serve a purpose. Finally more pilots bailing out and rescue operations

very easy to grief as you could "request" crewman kits every 2 min and just leave them on the ground wasting your team perhaps 5-10 tickets every 2 min and no one would notice except on replay, but could be fixed if you could only spawn as pilot/crewman i guess, but then you could easily get in a situation where you have the kit and you don't need it or maybe you need it and you would have to suicide to get it. (like with insurgent officers that don't lose tickets but intel)
Better yet if crewman/pilot can only be requested from main-base supply depot. If a kit was requested and not used someone would probably notice and report. (more work for the poor admins)

There will always be means to grief, just like civis can run in mortar fire or people can knife the radio on friendly FOBs, etc. Can't fix the players.

The thing is that this system would do more good than the bad side it has.

The thing at the supply crate would take a long time and that would bore out griefers.
Waiting 7 mins just to make you lose like 3 tickets? He better just suicide 3 times.

[MrTomRobs]

Langes revised Idea:

Someone beat me to the punch I was actually going to suggest making certain kits worth more tickets to make life seem more valuable in PR based on role than it is currently as it means little to die at any point. For now however here is my own idea I came up with:

Roles and ticket loss outline

Highest valueMost valuable field personel, officer being a field officer and death or wounded being a big impact to the faction in combat, A officer death is a big deal in RL, much more than in PR. In battle if you loose an officer you are loosing important leaders and important people valuable to your faction, moreso than just a grunt. Some way to simulate this should be given to show the impact of loosing an officer as stated above.and the sniper being a highly specialized valuable soldier with a death being a huge impact: including Officer and Sniper: -2 wounded -3 dead -5 total

High valueSpecialized equipment soldiers with only 2 kits per team, ticket loss simulating a detriment to the team to loose said specialist also including combat Medic who is a valuable specialized soldier, including, HAT, AA, Medic, and Combat Engineer and vehicle pilot and crewman, vehicle and crewman being included as being specially trained and to encourage evac and survival more:
-2 wounded -2 dead -4 total

Medium Value These include other specialized infantry roles above just a rifleman or normal soldier for the team with ticket loss showing resources and life lost to the team but not as determental as the other roles, including: Rifleman AT, Rifleman AP, Marksman, Grenadier, Rifleman Specialist and any other requestable kit, -1 wounded -2 dead 3 total .

Average Value This is including the rifleman kit. The rifleman being a basic footsoldier has the least value asset and equipment wise to the team but a loss of life is still sigificant and should keep reflectant of current ticket loss:
-1 wounded -1 dead -2 total

Additional information:

Dead dead values should reflect the total values.
Analysis:

I emphasized most ticket loss for being dead because the actual death meaning the most loss because the soldier is then a complete casuality, while wounded means the soldier is still leaving in PR but combat ineffective which is less loss of resources and life than a complete death and to give players more a chance to revive and avoid heavier ticket losses.

Many people so far have commented this maybe too advanced of an idea for the community and that may be true, some changes in other areas maybe would need to take place in order to make this idea more effective but if implimented will show more value of life in PR based on soldier role to more reflect real life.


With more tickets lost for specialized kits, it may encourage players to stick to rifleman unless another kit is essential, and for squad leaders to player less aggressively in leading a fight and have their squad mates protect them better and by value.

Tickets could be adjusted accordingly but gameplay should still reflect loss of life and show consequences for such.

Will combine this and also vehicle ticket loss ideas at a later date.

You've made my idea better than i could have put it! This is pretty much how i meant my idea to come across!

And also for Heureux, thanks for the support! I had the same sort of idea with the suicide button a couple of days ago, but i'm happy to see that you have the same enthusiasm for the idea too!

[Lange]

Thanks Rob nice to know my own ideas were a help to you!

A couple more points I forgot and will add to this, I also thought of a unconventional ticket system

Unconventional Ticket loss system overview

Since loss of life and resources is not as deterimental to unconventional factions as it would be to coalition with less resources and less training and care for life I have a seperate system to show this, keeping in mind battles in history with unconventional forces with less to loose like the Vietcong etc. Mostly pertaining these ideas to the Chechen militants and HAMAS since the other unconventional factions in PR do not use tickets currently

Officer -2 wounded -2 dead 4 Total

Reasoning being a cell leader or field officer is important to a unconventional faction but a loss not quite as important as a blu for officer.

HAT and AA -2 wounded -2 dead 4 total

HAT and AA being very specialized and resource heavy for a militia or insurgency would be a heavier ticket loss

Sniper, Sapper/engineer, LAT, Anti personel any requestable kit other than specialist or grenadier: -1 wounded -3 total

Reasoning here being unlike Blu For these kinds of soldiers are not like blu for who went through rigorous training and schools to be these specialists, rather just using this equipment more for the cause and should be reflected as such.

Scout/Rifleman Specialist , Warrior/Rifleman, Grenadier -1 wounded -1 dead -2 total.

Same reasoning as above there is little extra resources to these soldier roles more just like a normal fighter.


Note

To compensate tickets should be higher for blu for but still balanced, but essentially the idea is to make Blu For get punished because of their higher resources and value of life more, so the same principle should apply that careless would really hurt the team. Also ticket values should reflect typically a 45 minute to past a hour round for an average team as to not change gameplay too much.

[Darman1138]

My thoughts on when people say "but if a team has bad players they'll lose that much faster": This game is supposed to replicate war and in war each army has it's idiots. If one side has horrible players, I think the team should have to deal with it and get their guys in line. Hopefully it'd help make better players in the end. We don't do any good by making things too lenient. I think the whole "wounded soldiers count as casualties" might be a bit much, especially especially because I believe it would diminish the medic's role, but I like the kits=points idea. Just as long as they count once they're dead.

[BulletPr0of]

Because this entire concept is the based around the value of the role/equipment this would only work if it was the kit itself that was tied to the ticket loss, not the person using it.

In the current theory being discussed if some one was to recover the said kit, that costs X many more tickets as it considered more important, if they were to be also killed presumably they would also lose the same amount of tickets, surely you should not lose twice the tickets for the same kit, just because it was attempted to be recovered.

And so in my opinion, the team should only lose the tickets when the kit is gone, not the operator. But then this becomes problematic when kits disappear due to glitches, to be totally honest I don't see this as something that needs to be added at all, but if it is the above is how I personally think it would work without it over punishing a squad/team trying to recover a kit with a higher ticket value.

[paul161616]

everything LHeureux said, although it is very difficult to predict how this change would really play out in public games. if any dev/con was interested in doing their own kit-mod (like DBmod) for these changes that would be pretty cool.. too bad i cant code or create anything on a pc, damn.

[Vicious302]

I could see a concept map/mod involving vehicle warfare with some infantry, basically designed for 100+

1. Less infantry makes them harder to find and thus more valuable. One HAT could wreak havoc onan entire tank squad for example. Sending a squad after that HAT could be costly.

2. Instead of making kits cost tickets, vehicle ticket cost and total ticket could be reduced. One ticket for light vehicles, 2 tickets for heavy/ helos. 250 Ticket vs. 550. Thus making infantry the equivalent of the current loss of 5 tickets without the need to add any new code.

On average blufor forces lose about 30-40 lives per cache they attack if they are going to lose, vs. 25 or less lives per cache if they are going to win. So say blufor has taken out 5 caches. 150+ Cache Tickets plus the initial 550 = 700 tickets. Take away 40 tickets to account for the worst case scenario x 5 caches = 200 tickets. 500 Tickets left. Usually at this point the blufor is between 180-300 tickets. Meaning on average, rough guess, me thinking outloud-type-shit, blufor loses 200-320 tickets in vehicles tickets alone. If the entire APC/Humvee/Logi force on Fallujah is wiped out, that's 50 tickets. So basiclaly all that needs to be done is to reduce these extra tickets by some simple ratio work of 1/5 the normal extra amount of tickets. Assuming blufor needs 30-40 lives per cache that is 280 tickets for lives plus 70 for vehicles. 350 tickets total - 150 from caches, so 200 tickets starting. if you've read this far your head is spinning and none of my calculations are labeled correctly or making sense to anyone but me. I'm going to come back later and edit this to look nicer, but perhaps you get the idea to do the same thing without adding code for kit tickets. Only problem is that vehicles that used to cost 2 tickets should go down to .4 tickets but since that is impossible, 2 ticket vehicles will also cost more tickets in concept.

or cut in half:

Infantry(Kit): 1 Ticket
Humvee/Logi: 1 Ticket
APC/Trans: 2-3 Tickets
Tank/CAS: 5 Tickets

Reduce starting tickets by the average difference in ticket loss for vehicles. Simple. BAAM.

[Heavy Death]

Hardcore option would be that if you suicide, you have to wait 5 minutes and then +1 minute for every suicide. No other punishemnt, other than the 1+1 ticket. Give up could be a bypass, but if the same rules apply for crit wounded state, people would go gameplay>realism, go play arma, go join army etc.

[ComradeHX]

Would make sense if you meant vehicles don't cost tickets, only the crewmen that drive them? Otherwise the loss of tickets would be insane and max ticket count would need to go up to make up for it.

There is a good way of not getting 8 people killed in same vehicle: dismount when entering dangerous areas and have infantry walk ahead of vehicle.

But of course noob apc crew just runs around like they drive tanks...

Making kits worth more tickets would make gameplay even better as it can cost team the game if people just sit in APC expecting to be perfectly safe until dropped off. Then people might be more careful in usage of apc and practice more cooperation between infantry and apc/ifv...etc.

[lucky.BOY]

I dislike the idea of when you lose a kit you lose tickets. It feels unnatural, as you want to be saving the men, not the tickets they have.

Imagine a squad strugling to get fast to a downed and then killed pilot, to have their rifleman pick up the pilot kit and fight his way with the rest of the squad (with 2 clips for his pistol) back to mainbase to deliver that kit a respawned pilot. Thats just plain ridiculous!

What I would like to see is that you would lose tickets when you die, according to what kit you had on you right before you died. Think of it as a property of a player that would get updated every time he requests a kit, or when he spawns with one. This way, if you want to save tickets for that downed helicopter, go and rescue the pilot. If he dies, you lose tickets, which pretty much simulates how it goes IRL IMO.


Note, i would not make requesting unarmed kit update overwrite this "property", so you could not save tickets just by requesting it seconds before you die.
As pilots or crewmen in need of rescue do not typically have plenty of opportunities to request kits (assuming the glitch with taking kits from apc before it expoldes gets fixed), this would mean they have to stick to their kits and wait for rescue.

[xGHOST11x]

AFsoccer hit it right on the nose in my opinion. But it has to be a semi-significant value.

[ComradeHX]

Once again, it's TomRobs with another wacky zany idea!

After reading yet another thread about turning crewmen and pilots into medics fully capable of healing broken arms and legs with patches, someone noted that it's all too easy for members of downed crew to simply press the suicide button, lose one more ticket and get back into the fight.

I'm all for the idea that crewmen and pilots should try and make it back to base or stay alive as long as possible. It's realistic, gives a bit of variety to the game if a commander tells a mechinf squad to go and pick them up or something similar, but the problem is that the lure of that suicide button is all too great for players who have very little patience.

This gave me an idea.

Similar to how vehicles are worth tickets, say 20 for tanks and helis, 10 for logis etc, what if kits in game were worth tickets too?

For example, Officers are worth 10, snipers, HAT, AA and other limited requestables are worth 3/4, crewmen and pilots are worth 7, and riflemen kits and grenadiers are worth 1?

I think this would help gameplay because it means people are more inclined to try and stay alive, squads are more likely to want to go and pick up that heli or tank crew, and people will (hopefully!) start to think a little more about taking limited kits and wasting the.

As always - up for discussion!

This would work very well if tickets are only removed ONLY when kits disappear from map and go back into being requestable.

Spawn-able kits that are not able to be used indefinitely by enemy will be worth 1 tickets(officer and AR); Specialist/Rifleman AT/Rifleman AP/Marksman kit is 2 extra tickets, and CE/HAT/AA/Sniper/Spotter kits are worth 4 points.

1. it makes special kits worth more attention and will not be abandoned in the field as much.
2. it makes dying in vehicle a sure way to lose a LOT of points; so infantry learn to dismount and pull security for vehicles in more dangerous areas.
3. choice between keeping enemy rifleman AT kit or let it return and cost them tickets.
4. Random/unserious requesting of kits will now cost team many tickets.

[MrTomRobs]

I dislike the idea of when you lose a kit you lose tickets. It feels unnatural, as you want to be saving the men, not the tickets they have.

Imagine a squad strugling to get fast to a downed and then killed pilot, to have their rifleman pick up the pilot kit and fight his way with the rest of the squad (with 2 clips for his pistol) back to mainbase to deliver that kit a respawned pilot. Thats just plain ridiculous!

What I would like to see is that you would lose tickets when you die, according to what kit you had on you right before you died. Think of it as a property of a player that would get updated every time he requests a kit, or when he spawns with one. This way, if you want to save tickets for that downed helicopter, go and rescue the pilot. If he dies, you lose tickets, which pretty much simulates how it goes IRL IMO.


Note, i would not make requesting unarmed kit update overwrite this "property", so you could not save tickets just by requesting it seconds before you die.
As pilots or crewmen in need of rescue do not typically have plenty of opportunities to request kits (assuming the glitch with taking kits from apc before it expoldes gets fixed), this would mean they have to stick to their kits and wait for rescue.

If anything, i think that this version is more in line with my initial idea - making the 'life' of the player the most important think in game.

[drs79]

My only caveat with this is that rounds would go a lot quicker (much quicker ticket bleed), and with vehicles already costing a few tickets, it would take away from what PR was originally created as.

Now, and I am not being rude, but if PR were to change to a RPG, I could see kits being worth tickets, but as it stands now, I say that leave the kits as they are, I like how x squad is only allowed x amount of kits, and that there is a limited amount of special kits avail to the team at any given time.