BLUFOR Civilians

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hobbnob
Posts: 997
Joined: 2009-05-12 18:23

BLUFOR Civilians

Post by hobbnob »

Problem

Lets face it. Our current system doesn't guarantee the proper treatment of civilians. Tanks and IFV's would still much rather shoot a civi from half a mile away and deal with the potential consequences later. It's the same with infantry, sometimes it's just more convenient to shoot a civi from a distance with a rifle instead of falling into a potential trap. Irl this would be seen as reckless and illegal, so here's my suggestion:


Solution

Put simply, a BLUFOR civilian kit, called informant. It would look the same as the OPFOR kit and have the same abilities apart from the medkit and would have the same protections from opfor as the opfor civi has against blufor.


Implementation

A blufor civi will have a harder life than an opfor one definitely, there's no way around that but it's the case irl too. There won't be any benefit for arresting a civi apart from a slightly increased ticket loss and the loss of a scout. This arresting would be done with the knife, similar to how informants are executed irl currently.


The Good

1) The blufor civi will be able to take advantage of the lack of nametags at distance to get closer to the enemy and then report back. This is similar to the real world in that you can't identify someone by their clothing or a floating name above their head, you have to get up close and see their face. This will create very tense situations on the field, with soldiers of both teams approaching civis to find out if they're friendly. If they're not, they can attempt to run away as they would irl or disguise themselves as friendly by hiding behind someone else (or just hiding and listening in on their comms)
2) As the opfor kit is already modelled it won't require extra modelling time.


The Bad

1) This will make life as a soldier much more difficult, as a civi could be either a potential scout or a double agent. The soldiers will either have to risk approaching the civi and possibly being led into an ambush or shooting the civi and facing a spawntime and intel increase as a best case and a teamkill in the worst case.
2) Coding work still required, sorry guys :P


The Ugly

1) Having an Arabic voice would be ugly and unrealistic. An ideal scenario would be to have a new voice actor come in to speak English with an appropriate accent, but it's an unlikely scenario.
2) Love wolves might be tempted to try and trek to the opfor main, find a dropped opfor rifleman kit and cause havoc. Unfortunately however green on blue incidents are also present irl


Conclusion

I believe that this would add a new dynamic to PR insurgency gameplay, both to the make the civilians a more appealing class to play and improve the soldier's attitudes toward civilians.
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Rhino
Retired PR Developer
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by Rhino »

This idea is quite interesting I must say. Will be interesting also to see what others think of it.

One thing I think you've missed is if bluefor kill their own informant, that really should have a pretty big penalty, much larger than killing a normal civi. Also we may need to give the bluefor team a few civi vehicles that only the informant can use to get around in, and not allow them to ride in military ones?

Also nothing we can do about voices on a kit per kit basis, but don't think its a massive issue.

EDIT: one big problem that I've just thought of with this idea is, in order for you, the player to look like a civi, you need to spawn in as a civi, which would mean ditching one of our spawn kits in order to be able to spawn in as one, which currently isn't an option from what I can see... If it was a matter of requesting the kit from a crate, and then looking like a civi after picking it up, would be different but don't think there is a way round the not using up a kit slot to spawn in as a civi...

It's also worth noting that it would be possible to stop anyone who is a civi, picking up any kits with a weapon in.
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hobbnob
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by hobbnob »

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:This idea is quite interesting I must say. Will be interesting also to see what others think of it.

One thing I think you've missed is if bluefor kill their own informant, that really should have a pretty big penalty, much larger than killing a normal civi. Also we may need to give the bluefor team a few civi vehicles that only the informant can use to get around in, and not allow them to ride in military ones?

Also nothing we can do about voices on a kit per kit basis, but don't think its a massive issue.

EDIT: one big problem that I've just thought of with this idea is, in order for you, the player to look like a civi, you need to spawn in as a civi, which would mean ditching one of our spawn kits in order to be able to spawn in as one, which currently isn't an option from what I can see... If it was a matter of requesting the kit from a crate, and then looking like a civi after picking it up, would be different but don't think there is a way round the not using up a kit slot to spawn in as a civi...

It's also worth noting that it would be possible to stop anyone who is a civi, picking up any kits with a weapon in.
If a bluefor kills their own civi then it's blue on blue, and therefore a teamkill. This is punished quite heavily I believe, and servers will hand out kicks and bans for such offenses. I think that's a good enough deterrent, not to mention the teamkill message that pops up in the top left for everyone to laugh at ;)

I think a couple of the blue hatchbacks parked outside a bluefor base would be nice (not inside the base though, no realistic reason for them being there), accessible only to informants of course. However I also think that they should be allowed into military vehicles as a passenger, but at a 2 minute forfeit to their ROE protection. Fair enough on the voices, but just to make sure: Specific weapons like the grenade can have specific commo rose voices, is it not possible to make a civi weapon with such voices? I'm thinking things like "enemy over there" and "I need help!", nothing specific. I agree though, it's not a massive issue.

I did think of the soldier body spawn thing before but forgot to mention it. It's a sacrifice I admit, and I don't know enough about the new spawn menu to comment on this properly, but with the customisation system that is being implemented into 1.0 it should open up a slot for such a kit. Even if it doesn't we used to live on 4 spawnable kits just fine so I don't think sacrificing 1 would be missed too much if 1)It can be requested easily and 2) It's not a high-volume kit like a rifleman or medic.

I like the idea of forbidding informants from picking up weaponised kits, not from a realism perspective (because anyone can pick up a weapon) but from a gameplay perspective, it would increase the risk slightly and stop any team fortress style spy rampages, as well as provide an incentive against lone wolfing.
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Rhino
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by Rhino »

hobbnob wrote:If a bluefor kills their own civi then it's blue on blue, and therefore a teamkill. This is punished quite heavily I believe, and servers will hand out kicks and bans for such offenses. I think that's a good enough deterrent, not to mention the teamkill message that pops up in the top left for everyone to laugh at ;)
Well the "Punish" feature is part of BF2's auto kick feature, which I think is obsolete in the server code most PR servers use ie, when a player revives so many punishes the server auto kicks them, other than that, doesn't do anything, players score etc isn't affected if he's punished or not.

I would say a ticket and spawn time penalty is still required (although think you get a spawn penalty for tking w/e anyways) to ensure even more that fire is checked thoroughly first.
hobbnob wrote:I think a couple of the blue hatchbacks parked outside a bluefor base would be nice (not inside the base though, no realistic reason for them being there), accessible only to informants of course.
Depends on the type of base but most would have a few, local civi contractor vehicles in etc.
hobbnob wrote:Fair enough on the voices, but just to make sure: Specific weapons like the grenade can have specific commo rose voices, is it not possible to make a civi weapon with such voices? I'm thinking things like "enemy over there" and "I need help!", nothing specific. I agree though, it's not a massive issue.
nope, doesn't work like that. Voices are set on a team, then role type bases (role being either commander, squad leader or grunt)
hobbnob wrote:I did think of the soldier body spawn thing before but forgot to mention it. It's a sacrifice I admit, and I don't know enough about the new spawn menu to comment on this properly, but with the customisation system that is being implemented into 1.0 it should open up a slot for such a kit. Even if it doesn't we used to live on 4 spawnable kits just fine so I don't think sacrificing 1 would be missed too much if 1)It can be requested easily and 2) It's not a high-volume kit like a rifleman or medic.
Can't see this flying too easily but I'm pretty sure you would have to loose a kit type, with both alternatives to it, not just one if that's what your thinking as I'm pretty sure both alternatives layouts use the same body. So something like Grenadier would have to go which doesn't sound too bad considering how things are in PR currently but still we want to keep things standardised across all maps and this sacrifice isn't going to fly too well from what I see but see what others think.
hobbnob wrote:I like the idea of forbidding informants from picking up weaponised kits, not from a realism perspective (because anyone can pick up a weapon) but from a gameplay perspective, it would increase the risk slightly and stop any team fortress style spy rampages, as well as provide an incentive against lone wolfing.
Also stops a player spawning in as a civi, then picking up a friendly weapon kit, before running out in the field to help him blend in as the enemy.
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K4on
Retired PR Developer
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by K4on »

Civi system got changed for 1.0 a bit:
Bluefor will be more aware to not kill Civis, without having proper information about the target.
At the same time Insurgents will/can't abuse the civi kits that hardcore anymore as in 0.98

What that means in detail, I'll might show you in the next Devcast/Devblog.
hobbnob
Posts: 997
Joined: 2009-05-12 18:23

Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by hobbnob »

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:Well the "Punish" feature is part of BF2's auto kick feature, which I think is obsolete in the server code most PR servers use ie, when a player revives so many punishes the server auto kicks them, other than that, doesn't do anything, players score etc isn't affected if he's punished or not.

I would say a ticket and spawn time penalty is still required (although think you get a spawn penalty for tking w/e anyways) to ensure even more that fire is checked thoroughly first.



Depends on the type of base but most would have a few, local civi contractor vehicles in etc.



nope, doesn't work like that. Voices are set on a team, then role type bases (role being either commander, squad leader or grunt)
Agreed with all of those really, bit of a shame about the voices but no biggie. About the contractor vehicles, what kind of thing would they be? Are we talking the VW bus that's going into 1.0, or something we'd have to wait for the PMC guys to finish for?

@K4on fair enough but a bluefor civi would still add a new dynamic to gameplay, thanks for sorting it though and letting us know :)
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hobbnob
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by hobbnob »

WRT your additions Rhino, like you said the grenadier kit won't be that sorely missed, and it's easily requestable. Bit of a shame about the uniformity, but like I said I think it's worth it.

Just wondering, would it be more realistic to dump the AR kit instead? I don't know the rules on deployment but from what I've seen people carry around their rifles all the time, but I've yet to see someone carrying an LMG around on base. With this in mind I think it would be more realistic to be able to spawn with a rifle, and then request an AR if necessary.
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Trooper909
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by Trooper909 »

[R-DEV]K4on wrote:Civi system got changed for 1.0 a bit:
Bluefor will be more aware to not kill Civis, without having proper information about the target.
At the same time Insurgents will/can't abuse the civi kits that hardcore anymore as in 0.98

What that means in detail, I'll might show you in the next Devcast/Devblog.
Please do because last I heard "can't abuse civi kits anymore" the whole kit got ruined so bad it was unusable for a few years.Tank crews can kill civi's without worry because tanks have no counter if they have a brain so punishment on death means nothing to them.

On topic:I don't like the idea of giving blufor a civi kit as it takes the uniqueness away from civi using faction's even more.Also blufor needs every man they can get as it is.

I think a better solution would be to make civi's independent and belong to no team but BF2 don't allow that so it should stay as it is for PR BF 2 at least.
hobbnob
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by hobbnob »

Trooper909 wrote:Please do because last I heard "can't abuse civi kits anymore" the whole kit got ruined so bad it was unusable for a few years.Tank crews can kill civi's without worry because tanks have no counter if they have a brain so punishment on death means nothing to them.

On topic:I don't like the idea of giving blufor a civi kit as it takes the uniqueness away from civi using faction's even more.Also blufor needs every man they can get as it is.

I think a better solution would be to make civi's independent and belong to no team but BF2 don't allow that so it should stay as it is for PR BF 2 at least.
What? I don't understand why uniqueness to one faction is a good enough reason to reject this? Also my suggestion is the closest we'll ever get to an independent faction, as you won't want to shoot them until you can at least verify that you wont' be teamkilling.
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mat552
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by mat552 »

[R-DEV]K4on wrote:Civi system got changed for 1.0 a bit:
Bluefor will be more aware to not kill Civis, without having proper information about the target.
At the same time Insurgents will/can't abuse the civi kits that hardcore anymore as in 0.98
We have consistently been told that the next version will fix the unambiguously broken civilian system (I first heard they were going to be "fixed" somewhere between .7 and .8, and at least once every release since). Your words ring hollow and mean nothing. Your actions are all we wait for at this point.
Players might be hardcoded, but that sure doesn't seem to stop anybody from trying.


The only winning move is not to play. Insurgency, that is.
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Ason
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by Ason »

I think this is a very good idea! And I definetely think it's worth switching the civi kit with some other spawn kit, it would actually be a kit with a useful function to spawn as, for instance AR kit or grenadier you can only have 1 in each squad which makes it the same as HAT or any other non-spawn kit.(or am I completely wrong?)
rodrigoma
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by rodrigoma »

Rhino was right, OMG era has come.

So it begins....



I'm actually quite interested in this idea, I think worthy of some thought and possible testing?
UTurista
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by UTurista »

The idea is interesting but it has flaws. Even thou the currently system is broken
Spoiler for See here my suggestion for Civilians FIX:
Solution to fix Civilians:
1 Civilian Killed outside ROE = 1 More Bomb Car / special Kit spawn in main.
So if a tank kills a bunch of civilians they(Civis) can spawn in main and try their revenge. Or if the Team kills a lots of civilians they can expect a lot of Arty Ieds spawning in main
There's a logic behind it, Blufor can't fire civilians because IRL they would go to court martial so we Arrest them

BUT...
hobbnob wrote:would have the same protections from opfor as the opfor civi has against blufor..... This arresting would be done with the knife, similar to how informants are executed irl currently
...why would an Insurgent bother to knife/Execute an informant?? Insurgents would kill him on sight.
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badmojo420
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by badmojo420 »

About the spawn kit it would replace, wouldn't the two rifleman kits be combined into one slot with the new alternatives option? I can't exactly recall the details about the new system.
Onil
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by Onil »

This is actually a re-suggestion.

It was suggested by me years ago and I even did it myself and tested it in game. The devs simply ignored it.

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr-bf2-suggestions/59876-informant-kit.html

If this would get implemented, I would remove the current intel system for the caches. Blufor should use their informants, UAV and recon squads to find where a cache is instead of getting intel based on how many kills they get.
Last edited by Onil on 2013-04-12 01:47, edited 1 time in total.
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colodorian
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by colodorian »

badmojo420 wrote:About the spawn kit it would replace, wouldn't the two rifleman kits be combined into one slot with the new alternatives option? I can't exactly recall the details about the new system.
But then the empty slot would be taken by the grenidier I believe. And I forget what the SL kits spot gets taken by


I think that the informant would be compromised quickly as a quick check on the map plus a warning shot would be enough to weed out informants. Plus if they got too close they'd get spotted with out the name tag. There wouldn't be enough of an incentive either as there's not much more intel the informant can give you over just normal recon or a Uav.
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Onil
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by Onil »

colodorian wrote:But then the empty slot would be taken by the grenidier I believe. And I forget what the SL kits spot gets taken by


I think that the informant would be compromised quickly as a quick check on the map plus a warning shot would be enough to weed out informants. Plus if they got too close they'd get spotted with out the name tag. There wouldn't be enough of an incentive either as there's not much more intel the informant can give you over just normal recon or a Uav.
Really? have you never seen a guy moving right next to enemies without being noticed? I even remember a video from SillySavage where he pretends to shovel the enemy's fob with 4 or 5 enemies next to him. If players sometimes don't notice an enemy with their kits or even with a different kit geometry, I'm sure they will not notice the informants quite often.

Sure in the first months this will probably not be very useful as every player will be on alert but after some time, players will just forget about it and won't notice it as much. And sometimes an informant might be able to get closer to find a cache then a normal recon would.

Plus I think this can add very funny situations to the game. Specially if we had local mumble transmitting to both teams.
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hobbnob
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by hobbnob »

O_turista_portugues wrote:The idea is interesting but it has flaws. Even thou the currently system is broken
Spoiler for See here my suggestion for Civilians FIX:
Solution to fix Civilians:
1 Civilian Killed outside ROE = 1 More Bomb Car / special Kit spawn in main.
So if a tank kills a bunch of civilians they(Civis) can spawn in main and try their revenge. Or if the Team kills a lots of civilians they can expect a lot of Arty Ieds spawning in main
There's a logic behind it, Blufor can't fire civilians because IRL they would go to court martial so we Arrest them

BUT...



...why would an Insurgent bother to knife/Execute an informant?? Insurgents would kill him on sight.
1) If you have a suggestion, open a suggestion thread.
2) You didn't explain any of the flaws
3) The insurgents would knife as opposed to shoot because you wouldn't know if they're actually enemy. That hesitation of checking the map and making sure would be more than enough time to run away or call for help.
4) Your suggestion isn't possible in the engine

@Onil possibly your idea was too complex, and they're definitely not going to remove the intel system anytime soon, your idea would only work in organised clan matches.

@Colodorian Onil is right, it's currently rather easy to blend in just with an enemy kit, after a couple of month's high alert it will become the case for informants too.

@Badmojo probably, but we don't know yet

@Rodrigoma haha yeah I've been sitting on this for ages, only just thought to actually suggest it :P
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Spec
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by Spec »

mat552 wrote:We have consistently been told that the next version will fix the unambiguously broken civilian system (I first heard they were going to be "fixed" somewhere between .7 and .8, and at least once every release since). Your words ring hollow and mean nothing. Your actions are all we wait for at this point.
mat, please watch how you phrase things. I am a huge advocate of changing the civilian kit, and have always been since 0.6, but I do realize that it is nearly impossible to 'fix' that kit without making it AI controlled. Give the Devs a break.
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Onil
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Re: BLUFOR Civilians

Post by Onil »

hobbnob wrote:
@Onil possibly your idea was too complex, and they're definitely not going to remove the intel system anytime soon, your idea would only work in organised clan matches.
If you read my thread you would have noticed that I suggested two options, one of which is the same as yours and that is the one that I even tested in game. So it is not too complex at all. The second one was more complex but that was an extra suggestion, not the main one.

Are you saying that not having the current intel system and only relying on the informants. UAV and the recon units would only work on organized matches? That makes no sense since it's actually alot easier to figure out where a cache is on a public server then on an organized event because of all the lack of discipline and seriousness. You can easily notice where a cache is based on higher value kits and spawning enemies.

The current intel system gives you the exact location of the cache about 90% of the times if you have played it long enough to understand how it works. And even if you didn't have the big red diamond symbol on the map, you could easily predict where the cache is just my looking at that area with the UAV.

I do enjoy something that adds extra teamwork and new roles in the game specially if its challenging. So if the removal of the current intel system and adding the informants would make it harder to get a cache, you can always reduce the amount of caches the blufor needs to take down.
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