Rallies in 1.0? (change log)

[DDS]

"Nothing the devs do is thought through and in mind for the best of the PR community"

Are you serious? If you follow the threads and DevCast's there is a huge amount of discussion and testing that goes on. You know this right?

I do think that the rally system if true is worth trying again. I got pretty good at monitoring rally's for enemy activity and it was very useful in keeping my guys together. More frequent engagements because of rally system and the changes in deviation is a new dynamic if you consider all the pros not just the cons.

[IINoddyII]

Well, we're at 1.0.8.0 now, and the changelog from 1.0.0.0 -> 1.0.8.0 is about twice as long... I could probably post another encoded changelog, but seeing as how half the comments are abuse at us for not releasing the full changelog, even though time and time again we say we won't until we actually release, I'm not really that keen...

Note Ancientman's initial misgivings at posting up a changelog?

Despite that he did.. and what happens?


At this juncture I'd like to remind people that any further disrespect towards the DEV team will receive infractions.

Constructive feedback is always welcome - but some of you need to pull your head in.

Carry on.

[CR8Z]

We need a new mod: Project Trans Pilot. Just base the whole game off of that!

I'm looking forward to the changes. Change is good. Fun. New game.

[Pvt.LHeureux]

Are you serious? If you follow the threads and DevCast's there is a huge amount of discussion and testing that goes on. You know this right?

He was implying, he put the quotation marks for that ""

[Brainlaag]

With choppers only carrying light supply crates so needing 4 to make a fob with assets, no chopper pilot can be expected to do four runs on places like north bunkers on Kashan or city centre on muttra, so trans and logistics is going to be very important to supply and support troops. Fob will have to be built further back from the front line rather than being the front line. Thus rally points do need updating to balance the game play. Otherwise you will be spawning in main as the front line fob is down no choppers left to fly 4/2 crates out and no one ever drives the logi truck back once they dropped crates unless a dedicated logi squad.

Where did you pick that up from? From what I've understood only "light" choppers (such as Lynx, Huey, the new Zhi-9, etc.) will carry light supply crates. The medium (BH, Cow, etc.) and heavy lifters (Chinook, etc.) will still carry one and two HEAVY supply crates each. Means the situation you are describing, especially on the bigger maps, will not occur. I even think that due to the size of certain maps and their layout that rallies will have a HUGE impact.

Back in the days the most popular maps were either 1km and sometimes 2km. Means that even with the perma-rallies you still had a fair chance to find them due to the limited space available where a rally point could be located. On bigger maps, however, this is not the case anymore. I remember one round on Black Gold with DB's mod, when we kept rushing a hill from a near by rally point from two sides. We basically spawned, took out the enemy FOB, killed a few enemies, died, respawned, destroyed the 2nd enemy FOB, took down their rally, killed another couple, died, respawned and eventually we had the flag. It is certainly effective and leads to more actions, yes, but the tactical side really suffers from it.

To get to the point, I fail to see the logic (this is not as an insult intended, I'm just trying to figure out how you want to balance that, some insight would be much appreciated) in adding perma-rallies again and reverting back to a previous style of gameplay. I mean, you say certain maps "do not fit PR's gameplay anymore", yet you are going partially back to that very core essence of previous version. (BTW would you add ALL the old maps if someone, like me, took the time to convert them to the newest version?).

I don't mind perma-rallies that much, they were one of the reasons I loved PR back in the day but atleast give us the old maps back we had so much fun playing on with those features . Oh 7 Gates, Kuffrah, SUNSET...miss you so much!

[Orford]

Where did you pick that up from? From what I've understood only "light" choppers (such as Lynx, Huey, the new Zhi-9, etc.) will carry light supply crates. The medium (BH, Cow, etc.) and heavy lifters (Chinook, etc.) will still carry one and two HEAVY supply crates each. Means the situation you are describing, especially on the bigger maps, will not occur. I even think that due to the size of certain maps and their layout that rallies will have a HUGE impact.

Back in the days the most popular maps were either 1km and sometimes 2km. Means that even with the perma-rallies you still had a fair chance to find them due to the limited space available where a rally point could be located. On bigger maps, however, this is not the case anymore. I remember one round on Black Gold with DB's mod, when we kept rushing a hill from a near by rally point from two sides. We basically spawned, took out the enemy FOB, killed a few enemies, died, respawned, destroyed the 2nd enemy FOB, took down their rally, killed another couple, died, respawned and eventually we had the flag. It is certainly effective and leads to more actions, yes, but the tactical side really suffers from it.

To get to the point, I fail to see the logic (this is not as an insult intended, I'm just trying to figure out how you want to balance that, some insight would be much appreciated) in adding perma-rallies again and reverting back to a previous style of gameplay. I mean, you say certain maps "do not fit PR's gameplay anymore", yet you are going partially back to that very core essence of previous version. (BTW would you add ALL the old maps if someone, like me, took the time to convert them to the newest version?).

I don't mind perma-rallies that much, they were one of the reasons I loved PR back in the day but atleast give us the old maps back we had so much fun playing on with those features . Oh 7 Gates, Kuffrah, SUNSET...miss you so much!

NO insult taken, I may of miss heard the info on choppers and what crates they will now carry. Although other tweaks and additions may well make the rally change important. Wait and see is all I can add.

Thanks for correcting me.

[Anderson29]

yeah no one knows how this will all play out.. i got it....i just remember how it was with permanent rallies and i hated, HATED looking for rallies to knife. i also hate looking for fobs but i am dealing with that....

you know this Project Indigo is having this 1 life event this weekend.....i wouldnt mind seeing an "only spawning at main base" scenario once, just to try it. like you can still build fobs and assets....just no spawning on them or just destroy the fob after your assets have been built.

[ChallengerCC]

yeah no one knows how this will all play out.. i got it....i just remember how it was with permanent rallies and i hated, HATED looking for rallies to knife. i also hate looking for fobs but i am dealing with that....

you know this Project Indigo is having this 1 life event this weekend.....i wouldnt mind seeing an "only spawning at main base" scenario once, just to try it. like you can still build fobs and assets....just no spawning on them or just destroy the fob after your assets have been built.

I support that idea and perspective.
To get disconnected/crashed players back or rally up when you managed to escape is grate and should stay like it is.

[DDS]

I wouldnt mind seeing an "only spawning at main base" scenario once, just to try it. like you can still build fobs and assets....just no spawning on them or just destroy the fob after your assets have been built.

I wouldn't mind something like this either. That is if logistical support (helicopters, APC ect.) regularly transported infantry. Most times the pilot/driver decides to deposit your squad into a hot zone despite your requests to go elsewhere. Never works out too well for us.

[ChallengerCC]

Why not a "normal" and a "realism/tactic" server option (python script).

[Mouthpiece]

Rally points are for lazy people and for people who like to give up. IMHO They actually kinda go against the philosophy of PR as they degrade teamwork in some way. As noted, they sometimes negate need for logistics. Trans choppers sitting in main bored while people keep magically appearing from some kind of box that doesn't make any sense.

I say boycott the rally!

[Rudd]

^ while I agree with the logic there I have to ask a question...

what about on a map that has no choppers? (at least for one team) I have yet to find the player who gets his adrenaline fix driving a truck to and from battle

unless we add a couple of transport slots to the logi trucks I guess, but even then it's about 33% of teh time I see a dedicated logi squad

[Mouthpiece]

what about on a map that has no choppers? (at least for one team) I have yet to find the player who gets his adrenaline fix driving a truck to and from battle

I haven't played PR lately as I did a year ago, but I remember seeing "Logi" squads quite often, especially on maps with no trans choppers. I say described situation makes the game even more interesting, asymmetrical, challenging and teamwork oriented. As one side, for example, has a logi with 2 crates and they have to defend it really well and to think ahead about FOB placement and other logistical operations, but the other team is more flexible with their medium chopper with 1. Sounds fun to me.

I just really don't like the "magical box" thingy. There's always some concept, some logic behind an idea in PR. Like a FOB. You have to have crates. And you have to dig it up. But what's a rally point? It's an abstraction taken from games that have a different, faster paced gameplay (as noted, smaller maps, etc.).

Of course, I don't know about other gameplay changes, but I feel that they won't make big difference in terms of how a cleverly dropped rally on a 4km map can change everything, that is, a team with superior logistics may lose to one that has got no logistics because of a magical rally point. It seems irrational to me.

[Brainlaag]

what about on a map that has no choppers? (at least for one team) I have yet to find the player who gets his adrenaline fix driving a truck to and from battle.

I gladly did that, even with the slowest of vehicles but the problem here is, hardly anyone makes use of it, or appreciates when they do. You can't blame them tho, why would they spent 5+mins driving when they can either spawn on a FOB, hope for a rally to get pooped out (this will become even worst), or sit back in main playing around with their *****. People are ignorant and will bend game mechanics as far as they can to please their lazy asses. In order to avoid that and improve the overall experience you have to put certain barriers and rules in place, so you can guide them towards the right mentality. While some say you "limit" the game this way, I say you keep people on track and lower the chance for them to do something stupid. They are, however, capable of learning, all the major changes through out PR's history have proven that, so make us of it, give them something to bite on and after a while they will know the ropes, or have the "knack of it" as some may say.

By slowing down the process of getting back to the frontline you make:
-The moments of action everyone gets far more rewarding.
-People care slightly more about their virtual life, thus making firefights more intense and interesting, maybe even more tactical.
-Proper use of assets as intended (when was the last time anyone got transported by a Bradley on, for example, Kashan? Let's face it.....).
-Further points I'm way too tired to point out now.

I don't want PR to become a walking simulator, hell no, far from that, quite the contrary. There are SOOOO many options open for basically any issue in-game, yet people complain and ***** about basically anything, the very same people that consider themselves so far above the average gaming crowd which plagues multiplayer games these days. Yet their are just a spoiled.

Edit: May I ask what path the DEVs want PR to take, as in do you want it to become more tactical, or an arcade shooter with a glimps of realism and strategy? (I thought that since 0.8 I had figured you were going for a realistic approach without dumping gameplay for the sake of realism like ArmA but since this rally thing, I'm not all too sure anymore).

[40mmrain]

-Proper use of assets as intended (when was the last time anyone got transported by a Bradley on, for example, Kashan? Let's face it.....).

okay look, I mostly agree with your post, but for the last fucking time.

IFVs are NOT troops ferries. They were not designed for that. They do not fill that role efficiently. They, in real life, and in project reality get a lot more done operating in other roles. IF you had a bradley who was driving back and forth between north bunkers and main in kashan that would be fucking stupid.

Kashan is not even a mounted infantry map. So rarely is it relevant to put infantry in an armour piece on kashan, because infantry should be on flags 99% of the time, and armour does really good work off flags on kashan.

[Rudd]

calm yourself please 40mm

Edit: May I ask what path the DEVs want PR to take, as in do you want it to become more tactical, or an arcade shooter with a glimps of realism and strategy? (I thought that since 0.8 I had figured you were going for a realistic approach without dumping gameplay for the sake of realism like ArmA but since this rally thing, I'm not all too sure anymore).

I think its safe to say we're willing to try some things out, and we've gotten plenty of suggestions to take this path in our suggestions area and feedback sections.

We want a realistic approach that creates good gameplay, rallies make the game smoother and also give the impression of more players on the field of battle when there aren't actually more.

The downside is a less realistic reinforcement system, but the distances involved in destroying a rally by your mere presence do help keep the experience 'realistic' as combat patrols make more sense with this dynamic imo.

So Yeah I see your points, and I see the other side too.

as you point out it's gotta be the fun experience everyone wants, and it has to reflect reality; imo there's more than one way to do that.

We can't guarantee how these gameplay changes will work in the real world, often things we setup get abused/misused/not used at all once it leaves the safe BETA world and enters the cruel and unforgiving world of online gaming and how that happens exactly is predictable only to a certain extent.

Worst case scenario, we revert it after a while playtesting with the public.

But, as soon as we do that...we'll get a bunch more people posting to put it back

Neither way is 100% 'better' or 'more realistic' depending on what perspective you approach it from.

[Anderson29]

okay look, I mostly agree with your post, but for the last fucking time.

IFVs are NOT troops ferries. They were not designed for that.

ya but APCs are, can, and should.

could they not set up rotations....



i believe there will for the most part be trans sqds and logistic sqds....hell i cant play SL all the time....its too stressful at times and i need a break and these types of sqds are what i do when i dont do infantry.

anyways....i have been around here a long time, and i dont speak up about to much stuff....and some stuff i feel passionate about.... like the spawn system and specialist having a rope (which i think is completely ridiculous as a former light infantryman @ rhino)
anyways...all i can say is that i do believe you devs know what yall are doing....and i trust yall...and i hope for the best. i just felt i had to say something....
i was just shocked i didnt hear about this before...or something like that....or maybe i forgot...hell i dont know. TBI i guess

that is all.
done here. (topic wise)

[spawncaptain]

okay look, I mostly agree with your post, but for the last fucking time.

IFVs are NOT troops ferries. [...] IF you had a bradley who was driving back and forth between north bunkers and main in kashan that would be fucking stupid.

Yes they are. What do you think "Infantry Fighting Vehicle" means? The reason why you don't have Bradleys "driving back and forth" IRL is that IRL you don't respawn. In a conventional theatre they belong to one goddamn infantry platoon. While they may switch positions in order to maximise their effectiveness they won't abondon that platoon and go hunting tanks like in PR.

I completely agree with Brain that the PR players as well have been spoilt. On no map is there the need to use APCs or IFVs for transport as either the terrain makes walking more efficient or, more importantly, air transport is available. These game mechanics prevent the usage of said vehicles for their intended role and make them become mini tanks.

[Brainlaag]

okay look, I mostly agree with your post, but for the last fucking time.

IFVs are NOT troops ferries. They were not designed for that. They do not fill that role efficiently. They, in real life, and in project reality get a lot more done operating in other roles. IF you had a bradley who was driving back and forth between north bunkers and main in kashan that would be fucking stupid.

Kashan is not even a mounted infantry map. So rarely is it relevant to put infantry in an armour piece on kashan, because infantry should be on flags 99% of the time, and armour does really good work off flags on kashan.

The fail is strong in this post. While it is true that Kashan is not a true mounted infantry map, I still cannot couch in terms how wrong AFV crews are by fighting their own wars for the sake of "destroying the enemy armor" somewhere far off in the desert, just losing tickets and costing your team the much needed support.

Thanks Rudd for pointing it out, I really hope you are right and I'm looking forward to see what the actual values are for the rally point to become overrun, etc.

[Heavy Death]

To all the people saying "Rallies are just a part of it, look at the bigger picture." Sadly i find that hard to believe... RO have absolutely nothing to do with logistics. Youre all mentioning crates and whatnot... why? What does the ammount of travels that a medium chopper pilot has to do have to do with the RPs. Nothing. They still cary 6+2 troops.
RP is an infantry issue and infantry issue alone. I am not saying it will be bad or good because i dont know but please stop it with these bigger picture comments.