Admins vs bad SLs

[Mouthpiece]

I think that there should be set boundaries about the idea how PR should be played - not by limitating ones experience, but by explaining how the idea behind this mod works. That teamwork doesn't necessarily mean a squadleader and his 5 men by themselves - that they're just a small aspect of something bigger. That teamwork is the coordination between squads to ensure they are focused on their objective (whatever that might be). And therefore I think that it is fair to adress squadleaders who are not contributing to the objective in a way that they should (INF squads with 4-6 men by flags, less populated INF squads digging FOB's, etc.). But it should be done in the most harmless way possible, so that the grunts don't feel like they're being "fucked over" by admins because they still may believe in their squadleader no matter how stupid he is or acts (I've seen that).

If we enforce something, there must be written basis that every SL can get acquainted with. A certain rule witch should cover all aspects of the idea.

[Wicca]

If we enforce something, there must be written basis that every SL can get acquainted with. A certain rule witch should cover all aspects of the idea.

One rule to bind them, and in the darkness blind them. One rule, to rule them all.

its been quite some time since i saw a Squad wanderr off into nothingness. I agree with the size rule of ; larger than 3 needs to be either on the attacking or defending flag.

[CR8Z]

I've been playing this mod for as long or longer than most and don't need to be told how to play. Nor do I need an amin to massage my playing style on any given night. Admins should not play the commander role unless they are sitting in the chair. Period.

I am a solid player, I work well with others, and I am proficient at every aspect of this game. My squads are often at the top of the board, and I always try to make a positive impact on the battlefield. But every once in a while, I like to have a little fun, be creative, and let my squad blow off a little stream to build unit cohesion. Sometimes, these actions may be construed as not helping, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Your idea of what is beneficial to the team is subjective. If it's the COs idea, I will follow his command, especially in a match situation. If it's some smurf that happens to have amin rights, I could really care less.

I was kicked from a serve last night for this very reason. I will not return to that server. My squad was at the top of the board, and the game would not likely have been as close as it was were it not for my squad. There was no commander, just some admin that thought he was commanding.

Just let people play the game.

[=]H[=TangFiend]

Just let people play the game.

This

There are enough 'issues' with suspect admin behavior from month to month as it is. Lets not add more kicks/bans and selective rules interpretation problems.

A 6/6 squad off doing some bullshit is less hurtful to a team then a Tank squad who keeps keeps losing tickets at a dozen a pop out of sheer ineptitude. A three tank squad getting full wiped costs the team 36 tickets. Where do you draw the line?

The only squads that ever need resigning are do whatever squads especially if they are named as such. You know the ones, they are speckled all over the map, usually the SL has some random kit like a sniper kit. One guy is driving around in a random truck, some other schmuck is standing in main with a pilot kit.

[StandardSmurf]

This is a pretty big problem I've noticed lately more. The more that PR is dependent on teamwork, the less fun it is when you have some bone head SL ruining it for everyone. I have not been playing in squads as much lately because I'm tired of moron SLs, and I am better off on my own building FOBs or taking out enemy FOBs. Half the SLs out there want to wander around the map, WAY too cautious, and taking 5 people hostage with them. The worst is a squad that builds some worthless FOB and just wants to sit on it for the whole round. For example if your on Kashan and you have half the team on the mountains between NV and the bunks just camping FOB assets etc. So Admins PLEASE deal with these bad SLs, even if it is a clan member who is smoking too much green or drunk or something. I see plenty of guys with years playing PR lead squads like total **** from time to time.

[Gracler]

H[=TangFiend;1905033']This
A 6/6 squad off doing some bullshit is less hurtful to a team then a Tank squad who keeps keeps losing tickets at a dozen a pop out of sheer ineptitude. A three tank squad getting full wiped costs the team 36 tickets. Where do you draw the line?

Each flag lost cost 30 tickets... which can easily turn into 60 tickets...90 tickets... ticket bleed... total loss. that's not bad you think? and those 6 man doing spec ops missions... who says they wont get injured or killed and need a rally to continue there useless mission?

Tank squads rely a lot on teamwork/intel and those 6 man in the middle of nowhere can probably only tell that .....enemy tank leaving main... kinda stuff. The tank squad that is taking heavy losses are most likely taking the loss chasing other tanks or by ambushes.

The rants being tossed at asset squads getting taken out by enemy fire is misplaced most of the time because the same person probably didn't even warn the vehicle in time. It is not like tank gunners/driver gets divine skills as soon as they enter a vehicle.... its quite the opposite... you go almost completely deaf with tunnel vision.

However it seems to have become common in PR that doing nothing is better than getting taken out even if it means losing the under fire inf squad..... losing a flag..... losing other lesser vehicles like apc or aav's.... as long as your own *** is safe...screw the game and the rest of the guys. Where is the sacrifices people?? its not like your own life is lost in real life by helping those pixels in need

There is a reason that it cost 30 tickets to lose a flag.... your soldiers should fight hard not to lose it. Not run and hide in bushes.

(here is some inspiration to apc squads doing the good Samaritan move.....) You over-watch the infantry squad (that you ofcourse drove to the battlefield because your "PERSONNEL CARRIER" you notice the infantry is caught in the open and are taking machine gun or sniper fire and at the same time you notice that there is a friendly fob not too far away (in the case you get killed as driver)
Now you got 2 options......

1. Drive down there and use the vehicle smoke-screen while position the vehicle in-front of the wounded for cover so there medic can rez the guy.
2. Drive down there and use the vehicle as cover and as a driver jump out and grab a medic kit and revive the person.
3. Your gunner shoots what seems to be the main threat..... but you still move down there and cover the guy with the vehicle in the case that there are more.

The infantry squad will most likely love you for it....and they can continue advancing instead of being wasted 1 by 1. Your putting the apc at risk..but personally ive been successful with this most of the times.

[Arc_Shielder]

"Experimentation", "this is a game" and plenty of other excuses to loosely play the game as some want is somewhat irritating in this community. It's just an obvious way to dismiss the responsibility that comes with playing a game like PR.

If admins disregard acts that they consider harmful to the team, then that's a free ticket to lonewolving. Boundaries are necessary by using common sense. If you don't like that the admin is telling you to back off from camping with your AT next to the enemy base or wandering around stupidly while the objective is 3 flags away then you're really missing the point of the game.

This is not about stick around the capping radius at all times sort of argument. It's about missing the point when you're hurting the team due to plain selfishness. And as an admin I don't take such excuses lightly and I take comfort that others don't as well. If anything admins are quite lenient on that matter.

We're all here to play the game according to the goals given. By all means you can flank and do FOB hunting as long within reason. If you see your team losing objectives and the main reason might be because you have a HAT in your possession that could be better used against the tank shredding your team, then you fall back to eliminate that problem.

Which in turn takes me something else. The excuse that just because your team is failing you don't see why you should do anything more than what you have done because others "suck". This scream selfishness and a practically a not good to have player. So sometimes admins DO need to think for the team and warn him to fall back and be more supportive.

Not saying that aren't abusive admins or that mistakes are done. But if anything, I agree with the OP, admins should stick their necks out more often on this matter.

[StandardSmurf]

SELFISHNESS < That is exactly what the problem is. These are the players who, lone wolf with a kit they steal from your squad, spawn on unknowns, lead squads that only build huge stupid FOBs and camp them, and fly aircraft they have NO business flying because they SUCK. I know this is supposed to focus on SLs, and I will add to that in a moment, but I just want to say something about people who fly... I have been playing PR for 5 years under a few different names and have spent lots of time practicing flying. I ONLY FLY in an emergency where a quick heli trans is needed, and normally people say I did a great job flying. I still never make heli squads or jet squads because there are players who are better than me who should be flying. Every freaking noob or selfish pothead wants to fly. They are like "oh i was on the coop server man i know how" CRASH. Please don't fly unless you have been playing PR for a long long time, and are very very good. This thread is really getting to some core issues I have with PR lol. It's not PR it's the people who play PR. You shouldn't squad lead unless you have played PR for a very very long time. Every time I have joined a squad lately, and that's a squad with a clan tag SL, it has still been a freaking pointless en devour revealing the SL's personal defects. The SL will be VERY slow to move forward from flags and we end up 2 flags behind the front sitting in some T building or something. If they don't build massive FOBs with 10 freaking pieces of wire, they are too lazy to build any FOBs. I'll end with this ... Number one annoying thing is SLOW overly cautious SLs who do not keep up with the momentum of the team. GROW a freaking nut sack and keep up with the pace.

[Gracler]

You shouldn't squad lead unless you have played PR for a very very long time.

I agree pretty much with what you said StandardSmurf except this! Squad-leading is like 60% leadership ability in general and 40% knowledge of the game.
Of course Squad-leaders need the basics like... how do I communicate with other squad-leaders and how do I play PR with the basic stuff figured out.

Players that know everything about PR and have poor leadership ability can be your worst squad-leader.... and players who have very good leadership skills and know just the basics of the game can be a better squad-leader.

Leadership is based on how to bring the best out of the people around you..... so if your PR skills are limited you can still

1. motivate
2. organise
3. plan
4. get help from your squad-members if you get stuck in the PR complexity (out of the 5 members the chances are great that 1 of them already know a lot or everything about PR
5. follow orders from other squad-leaders or commander

Good Leadership is a personal talent/skill that you won't achive after playing 99998 hours of PR as a grunt.

I've played in many squads where the leader is perhaps ex-military or active-military officers with very limited knowledge of PR, but the fact that they have leadership skills and knows military tactics makes them great squad-leaders. Others have never been in the military, but maybe have an education that involves leadership or they have natural self-taught leader-ship ability.

It's a misconception that a lot of game experience and great PR skills makes a good leader. In-fact I got more examples where it's the opposite.

annoying thing is SLOW overly cautious SLs who do not keep up with the momentum of the team.

I also think this is one of the worst things about Squad-leaders, when they try to babysit there squad and threat them as if they where your mother, and do whatever they can not to get in harms way..... If your not in harms way... your not doing your job right. How often haven't you seen the villages fall at Kashan while the entire team is just hiding in the hills occasionally sniping or firing a HAT or TOW?

[Mouthpiece]

StandardSmurf, you lost the logic somewhere. Tell me, how can a SL become better if he doesn't practice SL'ing? I only started to SL because same as you I disliked the way most SLs play this game. At first I sucked (thought I received some compliments from competent people that made me realize that I don't suck THAT much in comparison), but after countless hours of playing a SL or following one and noting all the things he's doing IMO right and wrong, dare I say I became average.

These bad SLs you talk about. Maybe they're just people not in the right place. Or maybe they seek some guidance. I think they would be more than happy If you'd enlighten them about being a better SL. At least I would, as I'm almost always open to suggestions/improvements.

[Heavy Death]

"Experimentation", "this is a game" and plenty of other excuses to loosely play the game as some want is somewhat irritating in this community. It's just an obvious way to dismiss the responsibility that comes with playing a game like PR.

If admins disregard acts that they consider harmful to the team, then that's a free ticket to lonewolving. Boundaries are necessary by using common sense. If you don't like that the admin is telling you to back off from camping with your AT next to the enemy base or wandering around stupidly while the objective is 3 flags away then you're really missing the point of the game.

This is not about stick around the capping radius at all times sort of argument. It's about missing the point when you're hurting the team due to plain selfishness. And as an admin I don't take such excuses lightly and I take comfort that others don't as well. If anything admins are quite lenient on that matter.

We're all here to play the game according to the goals given. By all means you can flank and do FOB hunting as long within reason. If you see your team losing objectives and the main reason might be because you have a HAT in your possession that could be better used against the tank shredding your team, then you fall back to eliminate that problem.

Which in turn takes me something else. The excuse that just because your team is failing you don't see why you should do anything more than what you have done because others "suck". This scream selfishness and a practically a not good to have player. So sometimes admins DO need to think for the team and warn him to fall back and be more supportive.

Not saying that aren't abusive admins or that mistakes are done. But if anything, I agree with the OP, admins should stick their necks out more often on this matter.

I want to shove this post down everybodys throat till my fist forces its way through the ****, covered in excrement, still holding this post. Readability and actually holding digital letter are a different matter.

Chess is also a game. Do you add your own squares so you can flank the opponent? You dont, because you would make a goddamn fool out of yourself. But PR is a computer game and its on internet where everybody is a hero so ;to hell with the desired goals apaprently.

Also, the arguments along the lines of ;" My team is doing poorly anyway, so i can do whatever i want..." are fail in two ways... First youre not helping the team, reducing its potential even more, secondly, why not put up a good fight on the frontline instead of taking a walk.

[Gracler]

why not put up a good fight on the frontline instead of taking a walk.

Sometimes the big maps, you will hear a random rifle...and a bomb or so every 20-30 minutes while your on a flag .... which is very strange with 62-64 players on the server. It gets more and more rare that you have those epic fights where guns are blazing and bombs from cas are dropped often....even the cas will be fighting above on and around the flag and not some outskirts that are unimportant.
It turns the game into a war-zone instead of a skirmish. I do know that PR is more about short engagement than Karl-on-Doofy, but I think we can all agree that a big war is more fun than walking in the desert.... As long as there is tactics involved.

[DDS]

I know that this might feel like a touchy subject for some, but this should almost be considered in the not-knowing-how-to-fly, or asset-wasting categories.

When you are on a team that has a rogue squad, not necessarily a squad that is fragmented, as that is hard to be accountable for (bad spawns, deaths, untimely revives, getting cut-off, in-laws , etc), but where that squad is working together with their SL on some totally worthless endeavor.

This isn't a case of some guy running around taking down enemy FSBs, but rather an entire squad wholly commited to estranging themselves from the rest of the team effort.

This is something that admins should step up to the plate and accept responsibility for. I've seen well organized ventures go down in flames because of this kind of behavior.

Now, I'll stress that I'm not talking about people who misjudge their assault or defense and everyone on the squad dies, that will happen no matter how good the SL. I'm only talking about griefing by not being assisting the team at the current objectives.

Admins, USE resign!!! It's a feature, not a bug. Tell them that they have been disbanded, if you have to. Chalk it up to education.

Lets also give admins a magic eight ball to enlighten them as well since they are so keen these days on how people should play. The commander role got nut kicked so now we replace it with admin lol
Oh and lets also develop a script to rewrite server rules on the fly just to keep it cheeky

[dvsilverwing]

I'm not advocating blatant idiocy, I want to win just like everyone else and having morons on the team is usually a pretty big setback... but one thing that a lot of people in this thread fail to realize is that this is a game, and it's meant to be fun and enjoyable to play. The freedom to have different squads dedicated to different and specific tasks is a big factor in that, some people like running mortar squads while others prefer to run a squad dedicated to ambushing armor before they hit the front lines of your infantry, there's a lot of different and possibilities and lots of different roles to fill and that is a major part of the game in my opinion. As long as a squad isn't breaking any server rules and is acting with the teams best interests in mind they should be left alone. Admins should recognize that if they start complaining about squads doing things (things beneficial to the team, to clarify) just because they don't like them doing those things, whatever they may be, they're just going to lose their players to the other top servers competing with them. Admins, don't be THAT guy.

[Arc_Shielder]

That doesn't cut it it. How many times have I listened to that argument...

Admins don't have a crystal ball to read players minds and intentions. They stick to the best interpretation of the map and comms to know who is helping the team or not.

For the past couple of years have I seen a few players blackmailing admins to do it their way or go to other servers. I usually take a laugh at that and continue the way I think it's right.

You can't expect to do wtv you want and then complain that the level of teamwork is in all time low. You have to compromise somewhere. So it's best to follow an unwritten guideline based on common sense than allow free for all roaming based on wtv argument that is convenient.

[CR8Z]

As a long time SL, I had to start somewhere and develop my skills, just like everyone else. How else do you magically develop these skills?

I've defended, attacked, supplied, and overwatched hundreds of caps, fobs, etc. Sometimes I want to do something different that still benefits the team even if "you" disagree. If "you" don't like what an SL is doing, nut up and take the CO chair and show some of those leadership skills. Otherwise, I say get out of the way.

If you want to just keep kicking and banning players from a dwindling community, you'll like an empty server because they're a lot easier to admin.

I get that you want people to do the "right thing" and "help the team", and that's admirable, but this game's best quality is that you can do something different every time you play. Some are advocating just playing vBF from the sound of it. Fight over the flag. Rinse repeat. You can fight the enemy from ANYWHERE on the map! Let them fight and enjoy the game.

If you don't like what an SL is doing, take command. Why is it when people don't like something, they want somebody else to fix it for them? Fix it yourself. You have the power and the tools. Don't ruin the game for others because of your opinion. That's just selfish.

All due respect.

[Heavy Death]

Sometimes the big maps, you will hear a random rifle...and a bomb or so every 20-30 minutes while your on a flag .... which is very strange with 62-64 players on the server. It gets more and more rare that you have those epic fights where guns are blazing and bombs from cas are dropped often....even the cas will be fighting above on and around the flag and not some outskirts that are unimportant.
It turns the game into a war-zone instead of a skirmish. I do know that PR is more about short engagement than Karl-on-Doofy, but I think we can all agree that a big war is more fun than walking in the desert.... As long as there is tactics involved.

Yes, but see, if everybody would be fighting flag to flag, there would be clash either inbetween or one team attacking, one defending (the purpose of AAS)...If they want to win, they need to come to the actual flag youre defending. If there is a 20 minute silence, youre doing a good job of not losing the flag. Not fun for the ordinary player, rather fun for a PR player. You can use that time to chat with squadmembers and tell a joke or something...

The thing i dont get at all is tanks and apcs going to hunt other tanks. Burning sands being an excelent example; flags are in the town and tanks go waaaay out on the desert just to kill other tanks and get killed by CAS. Why not atleast stick to the outskirts or maybe even go in the streets, support infantry and vice versa. They way that people act with armoured vehicles might aswell be another game.

[Arc_Shielder]

As a long time SL, I had to start somewhere and develop my skills, just like everyone else. How else do you magically develop these skills?

I've defended, attacked, supplied, and overwatched hundreds of caps, fobs, etc. Sometimes I want to do something different that still benefits the team even if "you" disagree. If "you" don't like what an SL is doing, nut up and take the CO chair and show some of those leadership skills. Otherwise, I say get out of the way.

If you want to just keep kicking and banning players from a dwindling community, you'll like an empty server because they're a lot easier to admin.

I get that you want people to do the "right thing" and "help the team", and that's admirable, but this game's best quality is that you can do something different every time you play. Some are advocating just playing vBF from the sound of it. Fight over the flag. Rinse repeat. You can fight the enemy from ANYWHERE on the map! Let them fight and enjoy the game.

If you don't like what an SL is doing, take command. Why is it when people don't like something, they want somebody else to fix it for them? Fix it yourself. You have the power and the tools. Don't ruin the game for others because of your opinion. That's just selfish.

All due respect.

I speak of detrimental behavior and you narrow mind it to channeling the fight within flags (although I very well stated that wasn't the case)...

As for the rest I won't comment as I am not sure to what extent you mean by "fighting everywhere" and "trying different things" (when the latter is at the reach of a few effortless clicks).

The admin should be a role model to the community and SL when the team is failing. But he is also there to remove the rotten apples, whether well intentioned or not. It's very dependable of the guidelines he is given in how to run said server.

Blackmailing argument again?
Have I said that how pathetic and redundant that is?
The same servers have been up over and over. It's clearly not working and you're also instigating the wrong kind of pressure to the admins. It should be about them sorting the gameplay out and how to keep it up. And not about absolute freedom and treat the server like a dance floor.

I am only going to say that it's quite strange to hear so many pleas at the return of such a great community like TG and then witness such a selfish and schizophrenic behavior or statements by some. It's like you want high quality gameplay and yet have it your way anytime regardless of the gameplay style you bring to the table. That is just not possible.

This will be my last post on this matter before I potentially get carried away. I think admins are so scared to give a slap to the hand to players that get so easily victimized that some servers have lost fiber. The cliche excuse of fun and experimentation will keep on topping teamwork because apparently the first two don't seem to go hand in hand with the latter. And absurd things like I have experienced as an admin will keep on going like "I am LAT in a Trans squad but here I am with my friend who is a pilot and we're both in TS, teamwork as its finest, he is spotting for me!" <- true story btw, and the typical "I am cutting supplies while my team is fighting 3 flags away - and further away - and I am loving every second of this camping with my HAT, supply crates and abandoned logi!".

And then moan in-game or forum about how unjustly treated they were because we think "inside a box".

I will continue to admin the way I think teamwork is based upon, which I find enjoyable and fun as a player. But it would help if everyone who has access to this forum realize that public gameplay can be improved if there is less of an egotistical behavior all around.

[doop-de-doo]

If you want to just keep kicking and banning players from a dwindling community, you'll like an empty server because they're a lot easier to admin.

Not discussing kicking or banning, only demoting.

If there was a way for (responsible and level-headed) commanders to fire their subordinates, that would be something, but there isn't. I'm glad there isn't too, because I've seen trolls go commander, and that is the worst ever.

The only ones capable of moving with proper authority are admins. If the admin sees that said squad is in the weeds, and isn't capable of listening to the team's pleas, then he shouldn't feel uncomfortable with stepping in and rearranging things.

[dvsilverwing]

You can't expect to do wtv you want and then complain that the level of teamwork is in all time low. You have to compromise somewhere. So it's best to follow an unwritten guideline based on common sense than allow free for all roaming based on wtv argument that is convenient.

It's not the people doing "whatever they want" that are complaining about the level of teamwork, from what it seems the people complaining are the ones that feel 3 squads on a flag fighting isn't enough, and that one 6 man squad off destroying incoming armor or something is just totally screwing the entire team over . Force people to do the same thing every time they play a map and do nothing but fight on points and only that and they will get bored real quick. It seems some people don't realize you can aid your team without directly engaging enemies point by point by point over and over again.