With 8 man squads should IFVs not be in infantry squads rather than on their own?

[Heavy Death]

Matty you keep saying its bad and then mentioning the SL. Think. Think before you write.

There is many chopper crashes, although choppers are a good gameplay mechanic, so because of crashes they are useless? Oooh, you see, its pilots fault, like it is SLs fault for not taking care of the APC.

It all depends on the skill of the crew and SL. It cannot be bad in any goddamn way. Full APC squads riding together can also get killed ithe the SL tells them to go in wrong places, without scoting, againts HATs and MBTs.

Its all the leaders/operators fault, not the concept.

[Hunt3r]

Keep them separate. IFVs are mostly fire support vehicles. Having them combined will mean either the 6 infantry do nothing but guard the IFV and up the ticket loss when it inevitably gets TOWed or the IFV ends up in shit terrain and is ambushed.

[Gracler]

Keep them separate. IFVs are mostly fire support vehicles. Having them combined will mean either the 6 infantry do nothing but guard the IFV and up the ticket loss when it inevitably gets TOWed or the IFV ends up in shit terrain and is ambushed.

Your right IFV is fire-support so the infantry don't have to crawl into a hole whenever other vehicles turn up or walk through a desert with no cover whatsoever, if the price is to defend the vehicle id do that any day.

The old alternative with infantry running around and not being able to give live intel to the nearby vehicle is just often not effective enough. The SL radio communication is often very slow especially if the IFV SL is in another Vehicle in another location.


Mech-infantry is not for all Squad-leaders though. It's almost like doing 2 jobs at once.

A good IFV/APC SL can organize very good fire-support and bring the superior firepower as opposed to a single Mech-inf squad that often will get out-gunned though.



So my conclusion is that Mech-inf squads are good in some situations and other times it is better to have IFV squads. A mix can also work if the rules make it possible.

My personal dream squad is me as a SL with another guy backing me up with whatever kit necessary at the moment and 2 or 3 apc/ifv's. Then I will move along with An infantry squad and feel what they are feeling and my buddy will carry a HAT or AA kit depending on the nearby "unbeatable" threat.

[ComradeHX]

Keep them separate. IFVs are mostly fire support vehicles. Having them combined will mean either the 6 infantry do nothing but guard the IFV and up the ticket loss when it inevitably gets TOWed or the IFV ends up in shit terrain and is ambushed.

The whole point is so that Infantry can get fire support/kit request ability/ammo/transport from APC while spotting any potential threat for APC/IFV so that it does NOT get TOWed. And also being able to flex to where help is required(instead of walking for 20min to help that forward cap point that was being attacked, only to find it to go down about 10 min. into the walk).

And infinitely better than IFV going off trying to act like tank(only to get ambushed BECAUSE there was no infantry ahead to scout those possible ambush spots).

Infantry does NOT have to guard APC/IFV 24/7; if you feel like you have to, you have bad infantry and/or bad apc/ifv crew. Because people use small arms generally when being attacked by infantry, and when APC/IFV rolls in, they(very few) need to switch(takes a long time in PR) to AT weapons.
APC(and IFV?) armour got buffed in beta, btw.

Just because most players in PR are not familiar with the concept, that does not mean it should be disregarded.

[camo]

The whole point is so that Infantry can get fire support/kit request ability/ammo/transport from APC while spotting any potential threat for APC/IFV so that it does NOT get TOWed. And also being able to flex to where help is required(instead of walking for 20min to help that forward cap point that was being attacked, only to find it to go down about 10 min. into the walk).

And infinitely better than IFV going off trying to act like tank(only to get ambushed BECAUSE there was no infantry ahead to scout those possible ambush spots).

Just because most players in PR are not familiar with the concept, that does not mean it should be disregarded.

Exactly, it has so many bonuses and to have IFV in a dedicated IFV/APC squad leaves the communication taking to long. An example of this was during the beta when our squad going as mechanized infantry. Someone called out that they saw an infantry squad running across the street and the IFV was able to move forward instantly and wipe out a squad. If that IFV has been in another squad the squad leader would have had to first find out where the enemy is, then call the IFV's squadleader, give that squad leader those directions which that squad leader would then have to convey onto his squadmates. If this had been the case the IFV would not have helped at all because the enemy would have already crossed the street. Another factor that goes into it is communication always breaks down the more times you have to do it. Its like the game Chinese whispers, by the time the information reaches the IFV in question half of the information may have been misinterpretation or simply left out. Also some people do not have microphones and yes it's annoying but if that happens the information can not even reach the IFV at all.

[Cavazos]

Yes it can work rather well, although it dose tie the IFV/APC down to only one squad and that's squad is only a force of 6 in areas where the IFV/APC can't support, and the IFV/APC has to go off and find something to do with his time in those areas he can't help in.

Sometimes its better to team up multiple APCs/IFVs in a squad, then transport 1 squad in two APCs, or even two squads in three to the same location and then once they have dropped off their troops they can pull back to transport another squad, or help support them if they can.

Spreading IFVs among infantry squads disperses your firepower but makes infantry much stronger. They can hit objectives by themselves much easier. If they encounter an armor force though, then a concentrated armor force would be better.

Each are beneficial in different circumstances and I don't believe you should get tied down to one way of operating through out a single round. Rather adapt it and try different tactics during the very same round to get the best out of your forces.

[Tennessee88]

It depends on the map really. There are times where mech/inf squads work really well. Especially on INS. But on AAS maps where the threat of enemy armor (MBTs especially) and other anti-armor assets are a huge threat, the APCs are better off with a squad leader who can focus solely on accomplishing the objective while keeping his vehicles safe.

[CR8Z]

I don't always run a Mech-Inf squad, but when I do, I prefer to have the Mech in my squad. If it were up to me, it would ALWAYS be in my squad.

There have certainly been times when I have worked with another SL who was SL'ing an IFV squad while I had infantry, but invariably, communication and teamwork breaks down, and the IFV is not there when I truly need it. Conversely, I can count on it being there if it's in my squad, and we have a much better chance of being successful in our mission.

Just my two cents.

[DDS]

With 8 man squads should IFVs not be in infantry squads rather than on their own?

Yes.



IFV, Infantry Fighting Vehicle.
an armoured fighting vehicle designed to transport infantry to the battlefield. APCs are sometimes known to troops as 'battle taxis' or 'battle buses'.

APC, Armored Personnel Carrier,
designed to transport a section or squad of infantry (generally between six and nine men) and their equipment.

I have walked (up arrow) miles in PR thanks to ridiculous APC/IFV squads who dont understand those two simple acronyms or could care less. But I'm (contrary to my signature) keeping hope alive in this regard.

[CR8Z]

I use the term APC and IFV synonymously in this game for the most part. There are a few exceptions, but if it provides additional fire power and support and an "oh sh!t" factor for the enemy, then I consider it an IFV, and I want it with my squad.

Found this quote on some random forum regarding APCs vs IFVs:

So, officially, the only difference is the armament: If it's below 20mm, it's a APC, if it's 20mm and above, it's a IFV.

IFV v APC - Defense Technology & Military Forum

[wilko987]

nevermind

[Cavazos]

So the squads that have acquired the IFV's will be more inclined to perform their own squad's goals instead for the betterment of the team.

Squads usually do their own thing either way.

[MuffinMunchies]

I do mechanized infantry squads regularly, and make a point to do so if the APC assets are going unused (not as uncommon as you'd think).

APC-supported infantry squads are incredibly effective. Your squad can't be entirely wiped out unless the enemy has a LAT or HAT kit. Even if all the infantry go down, the APC can clear them out, grab a med kit, and get you back up again. It gives your squad considerable survivability. If your APC also has thermals, it can spot enemies at long distance and in heavy cover, something a typical infantry squad can't. It makes ambushes against you almost impossible. Even if they try, if your APC isn't the first to go, the enemy isn't going to be successful.

The only times I consider using Mechanized Infantry a bad idea is in an urban or desert environment. It's far too easy for the enemy to take out an APC if it's navigating city streets. And if it's supporting infantry, that means it's not staying mobile, which is a death sentence in a city. In a desert, there is little cover for an APC to use, and a tank or CAS will wipe it out pretty easily. In the desert, let the APCs work together as their own squad, they are there more for fire support from a large distance than a close-range support and transport.

Squad Leaders DO need to be cautious in the use of their APCs however. If you're on a large forest map with large tank numbers, your APC needs to be kept very safe.

[=]H[=TangFiend]

Mechanized infantry squads are certainly nothing new in PR, having two more infantry available makes them especially valuable. I have been running em for years and some of my best rounds have been SL of MECHINF.

Like one of the above posters said, its not for every squadleader and it requires a different style.

I have some tips for 8 man Mech INF:

1. You need a good squad, guess that goes without saying. But MECHINF really requires a squad that is gonna listen well since you will be issuing a lot of verbal commands. Most importantly "Mount up, everybody in the vehicle" and "Dismount" Explain it it briefing and do it a few times early in the round at the easy first flags to get them in rhythm.

2. Squadleader leads from the middle/rear. You will spend a lot more time than usual in your map since you will be directing the vehicle as well as your guys on foot. You don't need to be a superhero on point, you need to focus on keeping the vehicle alive. It will in turn keep your infantry alive.

3. Infantry up front largely do the capping vehicle largely does the killing. It's got great range for fire support. Keep your vehicle back providing overwatch. Squadleader and medic hang back slightly toward the middle help ensure your eyes are helping watch the vehicle's flanks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Squadmembers need to know their roles.

Driver - Most important guy in the squad second to the SL. The driver's job is to position the vehicle to cover capping operation. He needs to listen to his gunner first and SL second. Driver needs to have the discipline to only really relocate the vehicle when told or when directed. When the squad is fully aboard the driver needs to play defensively and follow map markers to objective areas. Fighting is secondary when in transit, speed is life.

Gunner - Second to the SL will do the most talking. Keeps his sights around the friendly infantry as much as possible without developing tunnel vision.

Medic - Needs to usually be the last one charging into the cap and the first one running back toward the vehicle when it's time to leave. Always pulled between that tug-o-war of staying with the vehicle / other infantry.

Infantry As stated before the most important thing for the infantry is GET IN/GET OUT on command. Know where the vehicle is at all times. Unless someone is down or pinned when the order is given, snap shit and get in the car. Talk in local as much as possible to cut down on the cross chatter.

As for kits;

CQB kits in urban maps are great. A HAT kit in the squad is another great addition, useful for taking care of anything the vehicle can't handle. There's plenty of ammo to go around in the vehicle. Almost any kit is fine with the exception of Marksman/Sniper/Machine gunner are a no go. They take too long to get in place and their job is already being done very well by the giant armored vehicle providing overwatch.

Squad Leader Direct the vehicle! When mounted use your map markers and verbal commands "Left at marker, right after the bridge here. .. " Takes the burden off the driver to focus on road hazards instead of his minimap. Use the vehicle+infantry as your hammer and anvil. Know when to stay with the vehicle and use it to pull away from flags to drop rallies quickly. If your boys have to respawn elsewhere because of death for god's sake make sure they get picked up. Nobody should have to walk far in MECHINF.



In review: Remember Speed Is Life, Mobility is MECHINF biggest advantage.

[PFunk]

I'm reading a lot amateur psychology in this thread that basically boils down to people thinking that having the IFV in one squad or another creates a negative by product. Frankly the rule that trumps most concerns like this is simply that the issue isn't the IFV being in the squad, or whatever the supposed issue is, but instead its that the SL doesn't know how to behave with it in tow.

Anybody that behaves in a Mech Inf squad exactly as they would as dismounted light infantry is just not playing intelligently. If you can't adapt your tactics and mindset between the two separate squad types then stick to the one you know.

Here's the issue with dedicated IFV squads, as a retort to the "The SL will do X with an IFV in his squad". Most of the time when I see dedicated asset squads they often don't coordinate much. You give somebody an armour piece with a gun on top and they wanna run off like they're in the Afrika Korps. At least with the IFV in an infantry squad the person who is actually pushing his infantry ahead to screen against AT threats can give the driver or commander of the vehicle a clear picture of what's going on, direct their fire without any comms hassles from routing it through SL chat which is less efficient.

Anybody that thinks IFVs are just buses is underestimating their value, and anybody who thinks that if you want an IFV to coordinate directly with inf that they shouldn't be in their squad I dunno why. If you want them to hang back on maps that make this a smart move do that, but in many cases having them attached makes the squad a greater threat because then the IFV is a tool for the duration of the squad's actions rather than something which becomes disenfranchised from them the moment they leave direct mumble range.

This would all of course be solved with an ACRE like mod, but sadly thats not to be.

[Gracler]

H[=TangFiend;1937902']Mechanized infantry squads are certainly nothing new in PR, having two more infantry available makes them especially valuable. I have been running em for years and some of my best rounds have been SL of MECHINF.

Like one of the above posters said, its not for every squadleader and it requires a different style.

I have some tips for 8 man Mech INF:

1. You need a good squad, guess that goes without saying. But MECHINF really requires a squad that is gonna listen well since you will be issuing a lot of verbal commands. Most importantly "Mount up, everybody in the vehicle" and "Dismount" Explain it it briefing and do it a few times early in the round at the easy first flags to get them in rhythm.

2. Squadleader leads from the middle/rear. You will spend a lot more time than usual in your map since you will be directing the vehicle as well as your guys on foot. You don't need to be a superhero on point, you need to focus on keeping the vehicle alive. It will in turn keep your infantry alive.

3. Infantry up front largely do the capping vehicle largely does the killing. It's got great range for fire support. Keep your vehicle back providing overwatch. Squadleader and medic hang back slightly toward the middle help ensure your eyes are helping watch the vehicle's flanks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Squadmembers need to know their roles.

Driver - Most important guy in the squad second to the SL. The driver's job is to position the vehicle to cover capping operation. He needs to listen to his gunner first and SL second. Driver needs to have the discipline to only really relocate the vehicle when told or when directed. When the squad is fully aboard the driver needs to play defensively and follow map markers to objective areas. Fighting is secondary when in transit, speed is life.

Gunner - Second to the SL will do the most talking. Keeps his sights around the friendly infantry as much as possible without developing tunnel vision.

Medic - Needs to usually be the last one charging into the cap and the first one running back toward the vehicle when it's time to leave. Always pulled between that tug-o-war of staying with the vehicle / other infantry.

Infantry As stated before the most important thing for the infantry is GET IN/GET OUT on command. Know where the vehicle is at all times. Unless someone is down or pinned when the order is given, snap shit and get in the car. Talk in local as much as possible to cut down on the cross chatter.

As for kits;

CQB kits in urban maps are great. A HAT kit in the squad is another great addition, useful for taking care of anything the vehicle can't handle. There's plenty of ammo to go around in the vehicle. Almost any kit is fine with the exception of Marksman/Sniper/Machine gunner are a no go. They take too long to get in place and their job is already being done very well by the giant armored vehicle providing overwatch.

Squad Leader Direct the vehicle! When mounted use your map markers and verbal commands "Left at marker, right after the bridge here. .. " Takes the burden off the driver to focus on road hazards instead of his minimap. Use the vehicle+infantry as your hammer and anvil. Know when to stay with the vehicle and use it to pull away from flags to drop rallies quickly. If your boys have to respawn elsewhere because of death for god's sake make sure they get picked up. Nobody should have to walk far in MECHINF.



In review: Remember Speed Is Life, Mobility is MECHINF biggest advantage.

I agree with pretty much everything here except the kit's In 1.0 an AR or marksman can setup quicker and you then have a backup for the IFV gun to cover a different angle or a blind-spot. Also if the IFV gets blown to bits the inf needs to be able to defend themselves until a fresh one is brought forward.

This brings up a problem that I sometimes see in any asset squad. After loosing the first asset and they are aware that a re-spawned asset is not ready yet they tend to spawn in the field and forget all about getting a new asset to the front. If you originally set out to have an mech-inf squad or apc squad or whatever you should keep striving to make the squad work as intended or disband/rename the squad otherwise your just blocking the assets for others.

My kit layout would normally look like this!

1. Squad-leader
2. Grenadier
3. Medic
4. Automatic Rifleman
5. Breacher
6. Light Anti-Tank
7. Crewman
8. Crewman

Then the real power of the Mech-inf squad is that an Anti-Air/tank kit Combat Engineer kit or rifleman can be requested if the situation calls for it.

[=]H[=TangFiend]

Then the real power of the Mech-inf squad is that an Anti-Air/tank kit Combat Engineer kit or rifleman can be requested if the situation calls for it.

TBH I am never that nit-picky when I run these squads in terms of kits. The only thing I really get anal about is keeping the INF reasonably tight together and ready to travel at a moments notice and keeping the vehicle where it can collect the squad quickly. I find the Marksman/Sniper mentality tends wander and be less promptly responsive to verbal commands on some private hunting trip. It's really the only two kits I don't allow.

[matty1053]

In My opinion, usually when this happens... The Squad Leader tends to flip out over mumble and be like: "USE LOCAL!!!!"
And you know how some APC's are pretty loud, can't hear really good on Local.


And, no matter what.... I would still run my own APC squad. I ♥ APCs!

So, I was playing a few days ago... and of course a squad decides to make a squad called: APC INF.

And of course, I thought that they have only ONE APC claimed. But apperently they claimed nearly every single APC on the map.

Of course this was the HOG server... you know how their admins are...
So me and 3 of my friends created a squad and of course what do you know!

"WARNING MATTY1053 RETURN THAT ASSET NOW!!!!"

I named my squad properly, I named it AAV Mumble.
And of course I wasn't in a good mood that day, I was like Screw it. And just let the APC INF waste my beautiful AAV! (IT WAS SO YOUNG!!!)

Back on topic...

I have been squad leader about 6 times maybe on 1.0 for about 15 min, or untill I disconnected or server crashed .
And yes I have tried using a MECH INF squad. It's not that good to work with. It's pretty hellacious when you are all trying to talk at once.

And it's horrible when you have like 2 Clan mates that just ignore everything you say.



But, I do not think IFV's should be in Infantry Squads.
When I gun or drive APC, I could care less about picking infantry up to drive them to a obj. that is about.... 46m away?

[Cassius]

It depends really. If the crew knows what it is doing and uses coms well, it can support the team efficiently regardless, if it does not, its better to have a squadleader micromanage the apc, keep it out of harms way and sick it on targets.

I dont see a problem with the APC being tied to a squad as far as teamwork goes. If the apc attacks or defends a flag it does help the team, regardless if it does so autonomously or as part of a mechanized squad.

And as far as transport goes usually there are plenty of alternatives avaiable. Project reality simulates contact at a flashpoint in a 4 X 4 area, not the 100 km+ drive until you make contact with an enemy unit.