The big problem I am encountering is lack of communication. Both from the team, and when I run a sqd.
When I tell a SM to do something, only to have him stand there doing nothing, and have to repeat it several times, only to get a "what" after 4 min.
If you dont understand the order...SAY SO
If my mumble is to low....SAY SO
If you do not know how to do it...SAY SO
...and if you do hear me, and know how to do it...say copy/rgr/will do..something so that I know that you heard and understood.
Just standing still doing nothing at all does not help anyone
Lack of teamwork
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Archosaurus
- Posts: 258
- Joined: 2011-10-09 11:32
Re: Lack of teamwork
This.Jevski wrote:The big problem I am encountering is lack of communication. Both from the team, and when I run a sqd.
When I tell a SM to do something, only to have him stand there doing nothing, and have to repeat it several times, only to get a "what" after 4 min.
If you dont understand the order...SAY SO
If my mumble is to low....SAY SO
If you do not know how to do it...SAY SO
...and if you do hear me, and know how to do it...say copy/rgr/will do..something so that I know that you heard and understood.
Just standing still doing nothing at all does not help anyone
I managed to play through the whole beta with Mumble effectively muffling my voice so bad that no one could hear it, and then some time into 1.0
And no one said ANYTHING until I asked them.
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matty1053
- Posts: 2007
- Joined: 2013-07-03 00:17
Re: Lack of teamwork
You must train to be teamwork.
What I realized...
Newbies tend to get on CIA and popular servers with 100 players. So they don't know what is going on!
But honestly, only a few CLANS (not really huge named....) do not teamwork with others.
I was on Saaremaa and in APC, the "clan" took our logi we were making fob w/ and drove it back to main without asking. He drove to main so he can get a heli....
I see teamwork good on PRTA!
But remember it's still a few days old 1.0
What I realized...
Newbies tend to get on CIA and popular servers with 100 players. So they don't know what is going on!
But honestly, only a few CLANS (not really huge named....) do not teamwork with others.
I was on Saaremaa and in APC, the "clan" took our logi we were making fob w/ and drove it back to main without asking. He drove to main so he can get a heli....
I see teamwork good on PRTA!
But remember it's still a few days old 1.0DETROIT TIGERS
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Cassius
- Posts: 3958
- Joined: 2008-04-14 17:37
Re: Lack of teamwork
We need a strategy guide, with some tips, tactics and routines. I feel it would enhanche teamwork.
|TG|cap_Kilgore
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MuffinMunchies
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 2013-08-06 21:06
Re: Lack of teamwork
WALL OF TEXT WARNING
When I read this thread, the main question I have is, what servers are you guys on? I frequent the CIA, HOG, and occasionally the ]H[ servers and rarely have issues. Last 3 days I have lead 12 infantry squads, and only had issues twice. First was my squad members not following orders and sticking together, which is easily fixed by removing those members. The second was another squad was out at an uncappable enemy flag while the enemy was two flags past them, and they sat there half the match not being helpful when they were the primary offensive infantry squad.
From my experience, when there is a lack of teamwork it's because the squad leader is not doing his job.
The top problems I witness (both in other squad leaders, my own squad leader, or myself) are;
1.) A squad not working with the rest of the team's squads.
2.) Squad members not working together, sticking together, and cooperating.
3.) The Squad leader being a gung-ho rifleman. (Yes, this IS a problem and you shouldn't do it SLs.)
4.) Lack of inter-squad and intra-squad communication.
5.) Squad members not knowing how to do what they were ordered to do.
Now, all of the above are problems that must be solved by the squad leader himself (even #5)
Solutions;
1.) This is the most problematic, since there isn't an "always works" solution. Mainly because some squad leaders have it in there head that they always know what the best thing to do is and won't listen to others. However, the majority of them will cooperate if you (the squad leader) contact them over SL-to-SL mumble. If they are sitting behind enemy lines at an uncappable flag and the enemy is still advancing because you can't stop them, tell that squad leader the situation and that you can't stop the enemy without the support of his squad. Be polite, not combative, and you'll usually get a positive response.
2.) Problem #2 is incredibly common, but also a result of the squad leader not doing his most basic job; Providing leadership, goals, objectives. A squad that knows what its objective is, what its doing, and why it is doing it will always work together with each other and the squad leader to get the job done. It's an inherent trait of humans to want to be in contribution to the others around them. (There is a reason people take pride in the jobs they do in RL, same concept here.) Fixing this is also tied into the solution of #4 below.
Communication, communication, communication. Regular communication from the squad leader is the most important asset to your squad. Most squad members complaints (many of which I saw in this thread) are about the squad chat/mumble being quiet, no one communicating, etc. If mumble is quiet for over 2 minutes than the squad leader isn't doing things right. Something as simple as continuous conversation and repetition of orders, status, and goals can go a long way.
Also remember that you (the SL) are not always right. At the same time, neither are your squad members. And try to create an atmosphere where your squad members feel comfortable asking questions and giving suggestions. I have yet to play a round as a SL where I wasn't reminded about something, or given a suggestion on how to do something that was better than what I had in mind.
Also don't allow any form of angry chatter between squad mates. If someone is going around yelling at other squad members over some injustice, real or imagined, that doesn't help anything. Tell them to cut it out, and if they don't, don't hesitate to remove them from the squad.
Communication from squad members to squad leader is also important. If no one but you is talking, ask questions of your members, indirectly forcing them to engage in teamwork. If someone flat refuses to participate, cooperate, or speak, than they shouldn't be in the squad (make sure their silence isn't just mumble problems first).
3.) #3 is the problem I'm least accepting of. Just because a Squad Leader gets an assault rifle doesn't mean he should be running point or doing all the fighting. Ideally you should be viewing the map just as much as you're viewing the trees, buildings, or desert in front of you. If your fingers don't hurt by the end of the round from stretching to hit the M key all the time, you're not doing it right. =P
Make sure your squad members know to report sighting of enemies before or just after they start shooting them, and then it is your job to place an observe or target marker on that location so your squad members can easily view or go that direction without using their full-screen map. You're there to coordinate, you're not Rambo. You also should cover the medic as much as possible. If the medic has 2-3 guys to get revived/healed and someone yells out about bleeding or black screen, you've got multiple field dressings for a reason, help get your guys healed before the medic has to waste another epipen.
The primary reason I dislike gung-ho squad leaders is because they tend to die because of it. And when you're dead it's harder to coordinate, assist, set markers, and generally do everything you should have been doing instead. This contributes to one of your squad members having to step up and fill your role until the medic gets you up, and you can't always count on having a member who is experienced or knowledgeable enough to step into those shoes.
And if you die fully and can't be revived, you're suddenly half a mile or worse from your squad, you can't set down rally points once the enemy is defeated, and the squad now has to wait for you and anyone else that had to respawn.
Rambo didn't have a squad, you do.
4.) Like with #2, communication is key. You can't blame anyone else but yourself if no one is communicating. Keep up communication within the squad, a silent radio never helps. And make sure to communicate with other squads. Even if they haven't contacted you once, if you think they might know an answer to a question you have about troop locations or anything else, ASK. If you gain intel they might need, TELL THEM. The more you start communicating between squads, they more they will start to as well.
5.) If you ask a squad member to do something and he doesn't say "roger, got it, etc" or doesn't immediately start on the task, ask him if he copies, or if he needs help, doesn't know how to do it, etc, and then be ready to talk him through it. You can waste time doing it yourself, or you can teach him how to do it and create one more helpful squad member for yourself and other squad leaders he may assist in the future. (This is also part of that whole "leading" thing you are supposed to be doing.) And make sure your squad members know to ask if they do need help. It doesn't hurt to lay down some groundwork before the match starts, telling them what the squad's first or main objectives will be during the round, making sure they know they can ask questions and make suggestions, and that they are expected to work together and stick with the squad.
There are many other things beyond these five, but this covers the most basic mistakes squad leaders make.
Now, if you aren't a squad leader, don't want to SL, or for whatever reason are always just a member, and you keep having bad experiences, remember the names of the good and bad squad leads you come across, and try to always get in squads with the ones that were good. Clan-led squads are also good bets, though there are exceptions.
When I read this thread, the main question I have is, what servers are you guys on? I frequent the CIA, HOG, and occasionally the ]H[ servers and rarely have issues. Last 3 days I have lead 12 infantry squads, and only had issues twice. First was my squad members not following orders and sticking together, which is easily fixed by removing those members. The second was another squad was out at an uncappable enemy flag while the enemy was two flags past them, and they sat there half the match not being helpful when they were the primary offensive infantry squad.
From my experience, when there is a lack of teamwork it's because the squad leader is not doing his job.
The top problems I witness (both in other squad leaders, my own squad leader, or myself) are;
1.) A squad not working with the rest of the team's squads.
2.) Squad members not working together, sticking together, and cooperating.
3.) The Squad leader being a gung-ho rifleman. (Yes, this IS a problem and you shouldn't do it SLs.)
4.) Lack of inter-squad and intra-squad communication.
5.) Squad members not knowing how to do what they were ordered to do.
Now, all of the above are problems that must be solved by the squad leader himself (even #5)
Solutions;
1.) This is the most problematic, since there isn't an "always works" solution. Mainly because some squad leaders have it in there head that they always know what the best thing to do is and won't listen to others. However, the majority of them will cooperate if you (the squad leader) contact them over SL-to-SL mumble. If they are sitting behind enemy lines at an uncappable flag and the enemy is still advancing because you can't stop them, tell that squad leader the situation and that you can't stop the enemy without the support of his squad. Be polite, not combative, and you'll usually get a positive response.
2.) Problem #2 is incredibly common, but also a result of the squad leader not doing his most basic job; Providing leadership, goals, objectives. A squad that knows what its objective is, what its doing, and why it is doing it will always work together with each other and the squad leader to get the job done. It's an inherent trait of humans to want to be in contribution to the others around them. (There is a reason people take pride in the jobs they do in RL, same concept here.) Fixing this is also tied into the solution of #4 below.
Communication, communication, communication. Regular communication from the squad leader is the most important asset to your squad. Most squad members complaints (many of which I saw in this thread) are about the squad chat/mumble being quiet, no one communicating, etc. If mumble is quiet for over 2 minutes than the squad leader isn't doing things right. Something as simple as continuous conversation and repetition of orders, status, and goals can go a long way.
Also remember that you (the SL) are not always right. At the same time, neither are your squad members. And try to create an atmosphere where your squad members feel comfortable asking questions and giving suggestions. I have yet to play a round as a SL where I wasn't reminded about something, or given a suggestion on how to do something that was better than what I had in mind.
Also don't allow any form of angry chatter between squad mates. If someone is going around yelling at other squad members over some injustice, real or imagined, that doesn't help anything. Tell them to cut it out, and if they don't, don't hesitate to remove them from the squad.
Communication from squad members to squad leader is also important. If no one but you is talking, ask questions of your members, indirectly forcing them to engage in teamwork. If someone flat refuses to participate, cooperate, or speak, than they shouldn't be in the squad (make sure their silence isn't just mumble problems first).
3.) #3 is the problem I'm least accepting of. Just because a Squad Leader gets an assault rifle doesn't mean he should be running point or doing all the fighting. Ideally you should be viewing the map just as much as you're viewing the trees, buildings, or desert in front of you. If your fingers don't hurt by the end of the round from stretching to hit the M key all the time, you're not doing it right. =P
Make sure your squad members know to report sighting of enemies before or just after they start shooting them, and then it is your job to place an observe or target marker on that location so your squad members can easily view or go that direction without using their full-screen map. You're there to coordinate, you're not Rambo. You also should cover the medic as much as possible. If the medic has 2-3 guys to get revived/healed and someone yells out about bleeding or black screen, you've got multiple field dressings for a reason, help get your guys healed before the medic has to waste another epipen.
The primary reason I dislike gung-ho squad leaders is because they tend to die because of it. And when you're dead it's harder to coordinate, assist, set markers, and generally do everything you should have been doing instead. This contributes to one of your squad members having to step up and fill your role until the medic gets you up, and you can't always count on having a member who is experienced or knowledgeable enough to step into those shoes.
And if you die fully and can't be revived, you're suddenly half a mile or worse from your squad, you can't set down rally points once the enemy is defeated, and the squad now has to wait for you and anyone else that had to respawn.
Rambo didn't have a squad, you do.
4.) Like with #2, communication is key. You can't blame anyone else but yourself if no one is communicating. Keep up communication within the squad, a silent radio never helps. And make sure to communicate with other squads. Even if they haven't contacted you once, if you think they might know an answer to a question you have about troop locations or anything else, ASK. If you gain intel they might need, TELL THEM. The more you start communicating between squads, they more they will start to as well.
5.) If you ask a squad member to do something and he doesn't say "roger, got it, etc" or doesn't immediately start on the task, ask him if he copies, or if he needs help, doesn't know how to do it, etc, and then be ready to talk him through it. You can waste time doing it yourself, or you can teach him how to do it and create one more helpful squad member for yourself and other squad leaders he may assist in the future. (This is also part of that whole "leading" thing you are supposed to be doing.) And make sure your squad members know to ask if they do need help. It doesn't hurt to lay down some groundwork before the match starts, telling them what the squad's first or main objectives will be during the round, making sure they know they can ask questions and make suggestions, and that they are expected to work together and stick with the squad.
There are many other things beyond these five, but this covers the most basic mistakes squad leaders make.
Now, if you aren't a squad leader, don't want to SL, or for whatever reason are always just a member, and you keep having bad experiences, remember the names of the good and bad squad leads you come across, and try to always get in squads with the ones that were good. Clan-led squads are also good bets, though there are exceptions.
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Tennessee88
- Posts: 32
- Joined: 2011-04-15 02:11
Re: Lack of teamwork
A lot of new guys, normal squad leaders want to play with new toys, etc. Give it time, and more importantly step up to the plate and train the new kids.
Gunga Galunga and Go Vols
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Lugi
- Posts: 590
- Joined: 2010-10-15 21:36
Re: Lack of teamwork
AKA every single squad ever.MuffinMunchies wrote:1.) A squad not working with the rest of the team's squads.
Just admit it, most of the time squads dont give a f about each. PR succeeded in making inter squad gameplay pretty cooperative, but on multiple squads level the teamwork is shit.
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MuffinMunchies
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 2013-08-06 21:06
Re: Lack of teamwork
Again i'd have to ask what servers you frequent as this has not been a "100% of the time" problem in my experience. Squad to squad chat appears pretty lively almost every round. Are you saying this from a squad leader perspective or a squad member one? If the latter, there may be a lot more coordination going on than it appears.Lugi wrote:AKA every single squad ever.
Just admit it, most of the time squads dont give a f about each. PR succeeded in making inter squad gameplay pretty cooperative, but on multiple squads level the teamwork is shit.
This isn't a PR problem but a player one. Try a different server if you're getting no teamwork on yours.
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Heavy Death
- Posts: 1303
- Joined: 2012-10-21 10:51
Re: Lack of teamwork
I just played 1.0 for the first time on PRTA, led a squad of, dare i say, mediocre players, and everything went better than expected.
There was SL radio silence until i broke it, then it went flying. My squad was doing some insane accurate suppresion... havent seen this stuff in PR yet. Supression on demand... miracle. If only this will continue!
Other squads responded neatly, everything went well, then the server crashed. All in all, it wasnt half as bad as .98 was.
There was SL radio silence until i broke it, then it went flying. My squad was doing some insane accurate suppresion... havent seen this stuff in PR yet. Supression on demand... miracle. If only this will continue!
Other squads responded neatly, everything went well, then the server crashed. All in all, it wasnt half as bad as .98 was.
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ChallengerCC
- Posts: 401
- Joined: 2010-08-21 10:35
Re: Lack of teamwork
The game itself dont enforce tactic and teamwork anymore!
Let me explain my statement:
All changes from 100player, to rally points, to nearly "undestructable" FOB, to deviation, to running duration, to vehicle spawn time, to running speed ...
Everything goes into the fast gameplay direction and action, this factors even multiply in interaction with each other.
Instead to make the game more tactic, static, slower gameplay and enforce teamwork between vehicles and infantry, the DEVs did everything in my opinion and of several other players, in the total wrong way.
They need to turn PR 1.0 to 180 degrees and even more, to get the even action paste 0.98 old version(60%action / 40% tactic/teamwork) in a good balanced game between 50% action and 50%tactic.
(The most big gameplay changes seems to be only some numbers. So should be some quick fixed thing)
For now PR 1.0 with 100 players and this "new" playerbase and gameplay changes we have: 80% action and 20% tactic/teamwork.
And this is for me way to mutch dieing and spawning all the time without coordination, tactic, teamwork and roleplay.
I personal like games where i can stay long a life and a life itself has a high value and you need to play carefully, but not to extreme like in ArmA.
I hope i pointed my opinion about the new gameplay clear and simple out. More warnings i cant give.
We will enforce, step by step, some changes to our server and see how they will work out.
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... any-4.html
I know only to criticize things, dont help solve problems, I offer my advice and deep knowledge of years of PR gameplay, clan leadership and tactics, to improve PR gameplay and immersion even more.
By interest PM me, or direct contact: TS3-IP: qrf-clan.de
A statement from the DEV-Team about the new gameplay and PR direction would be realy realy nice.
Thanks
ChallengerCC
Let me explain my statement:
All changes from 100player, to rally points, to nearly "undestructable" FOB, to deviation, to running duration, to vehicle spawn time, to running speed ...
Everything goes into the fast gameplay direction and action, this factors even multiply in interaction with each other.
Instead to make the game more tactic, static, slower gameplay and enforce teamwork between vehicles and infantry, the DEVs did everything in my opinion and of several other players, in the total wrong way.
They need to turn PR 1.0 to 180 degrees and even more, to get the even action paste 0.98 old version(60%action / 40% tactic/teamwork) in a good balanced game between 50% action and 50%tactic.
(The most big gameplay changes seems to be only some numbers. So should be some quick fixed thing)
For now PR 1.0 with 100 players and this "new" playerbase and gameplay changes we have: 80% action and 20% tactic/teamwork.
And this is for me way to mutch dieing and spawning all the time without coordination, tactic, teamwork and roleplay.
I personal like games where i can stay long a life and a life itself has a high value and you need to play carefully, but not to extreme like in ArmA.
I hope i pointed my opinion about the new gameplay clear and simple out. More warnings i cant give.
We will enforce, step by step, some changes to our server and see how they will work out.
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... any-4.html
I know only to criticize things, dont help solve problems, I offer my advice and deep knowledge of years of PR gameplay, clan leadership and tactics, to improve PR gameplay and immersion even more.
By interest PM me, or direct contact: TS3-IP: qrf-clan.de
A statement from the DEV-Team about the new gameplay and PR direction would be realy realy nice.
Thanks
ChallengerCC
Last edited by ChallengerCC on 2013-08-08 10:07, edited 28 times in total.
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Heavy Death
- Posts: 1303
- Joined: 2012-10-21 10:51
Re: Lack of teamwork
For 100p to be effective, FOBs should be decreased by 50%. It is kind of a clusterfcuk now.
Tactics are alright, if you keep your squad far far away, it gets completely arma PVP-like. Only difference is that the objectives ar jumping lefft and right so fast. Slower capping and reduced FOBS&RPs would IMO eliminate the problem.
Tactics are alright, if you keep your squad far far away, it gets completely arma PVP-like. Only difference is that the objectives ar jumping lefft and right so fast. Slower capping and reduced FOBS&RPs would IMO eliminate the problem.
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MuffinMunchies
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 2013-08-06 21:06
Re: Lack of teamwork
If there is anything PR needs, it certainly isn't to slow down the gameplay further. We don't need to upgrade the game's walking and standing simulators further than what they already are.
FOBs aren't indestructable, if your squad doesn't have a breacher or combat engineer that's your own fault. You could also call in an artillery strike, laze it for a bomb run, call in a chopper, tank, etc. There are a myriad of ways to blow the shit out of them. Much better than the old "I'll just knife the radio" nonsense.
As for your problem here;
I don't know why people complain about the "new" players so much. They provide easy kills for now, and they'll get better. I'd rather than 500 Vets and 500 Noobs that turn into Vets in a year, than just 500 Vets. A game that doesn't gain new players is a game that doesn't survive very long, so there is no point to complain about new people. Don't forget, you were one at some point.
FOBs aren't indestructable, if your squad doesn't have a breacher or combat engineer that's your own fault. You could also call in an artillery strike, laze it for a bomb run, call in a chopper, tank, etc. There are a myriad of ways to blow the shit out of them. Much better than the old "I'll just knife the radio" nonsense.
As for your problem here;
Perhaps it isn't PR that is focused too much on action, as it is you. If you're dying and spawning all the time without coordination, tactics, or teamwork (roleplay isn't really part of PR so..), that sounds like a problem with how you're chosing to play. The reason you're dying and respawning is because you're doing too much action and running around and not enough tactics and coordination. It's a common problem (I still do it regularly as well). Slow down, take your time, be cautious (Hell, if you have to belly-crawl across that field, do it).For now PR 1.0 with 100 players and this "new" playerbase and gameplay changes we have: 80% action and 20% tactic/teamwork.
And this is for me way to mutch dieing and spawning all the time without coordination, tactic, teamwork and roleplay.
I don't know why people complain about the "new" players so much. They provide easy kills for now, and they'll get better. I'd rather than 500 Vets and 500 Noobs that turn into Vets in a year, than just 500 Vets. A game that doesn't gain new players is a game that doesn't survive very long, so there is no point to complain about new people. Don't forget, you were one at some point.
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Sleeper68
- Posts: 27
- Joined: 2010-04-10 00:37
Re: Lack of teamwork
In the time since I started this thread till now I've actually seen a vast improvement in the teamwork. I think the new players are starting to get a hang of it and those who haven't are starting to quit. Today I jumped in HOG on the AAS version of Ramiel, this version of the map is notoriously hard for the US side if there is no coordination. When I jumped in the US had taken 1 or 2 flags and were working on the 3rd. The squad I jumped into was amazing, the SL was communicating with the CO and other SLs. We got orders to head South from our FOB and then cut directly West to Blackhawk 6-4, meanwhile the majority of our force was taking the 3rd flag. Our squad moved together well and when we reached our objective we caught them by surprise. We secured the crash site, and everyone set up a full 360 without being told. Shortly after the rest of our team reach the flag we capped it and. luckily for us, our next flag was right across the street at the safe house. We quickly took the area while half our force start working their way up to the next flag. Once capped we responded to a distress call form another squad where we unluckily were wiped out. About 20 mins later we won the round.
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PFunk
- Posts: 1072
- Joined: 2008-03-31 00:09
Re: Lack of teamwork
Why has this man not been banned yet?L4gi wrote:I think its just as shit as it was in the previous version, with the few exceprions of TG and a couple of other servers here and there. Its all about enforcement.
Enforcement! Enforcement!
[PR]NATO|P*Funk
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Lugi
- Posts: 590
- Joined: 2010-10-15 21:36
Re: Lack of teamwork
I've tried a lot of different servers, and it's been like that on every single one.MuffinMunchies wrote:This isn't a PR problem but a player one. Try a different server if you're getting no teamwork on yours.
The PR's problem is that the chain of command ends on a squad leader. I've played a lot of PR and I've seen commander only a couple of times, and a true commander (the one that's actually commanding instead of being a uav operator only) only once or twice I think (and I have between 1500-2500 hours of pr under my belt, maybe more, I'm not certain cause I stopped using xfire after about half year). I've even tried being commander myself, and that's pretty tough, cause it seems like squadleaders feel like youre trying to insult their ability to play the game on their own by giving orders, so they just ignore you. I remember playing during 1.0 beta, and there was a commander trying to establish a plan before the game started. He was telling every squad where to go and what to do, and squadleaders either replied "no we're going to go there and there" or just ignored the commander.
While as a squadleader you can remove the people who do not obey your orders from your squad, as a commander you cant do shit, you just gotta accept your fate. That's the biggest reason why people won't play commander IMO.
Why would you pick a role of a guy who's only job is sitting in main and flying a toy camera, who is supposed to command the entire battle, but nobody ever listens to him?