G36A1 or G36KA1 ?

[saamohod]

These are the standard and alternative German rifleman's weapons. Does anyone know the difference between the two in the game?
In real life G36KA1 is a shortened carbine version, therefore less powerful projectile and less accuracy. In PR they both have the same damage (according to wiki G36A1 - ProjectReality Wiki).
I tested them both on accuracy, and they appear to have the same accuracy too. But in case I'm wrong and the KA1 version has worse accuracy (as supposed to be), then what's the point of choosing it over A1?
They have the same sights, same magazine capacity and both appear to have the same recoil.
So what's the difference?

[Rhino]

They are different. While yes, the Bullets themselves do the same damage on impact since they fire the same 5.56x45mm round, the G36A1 fires it at a higher velocity of 920 where the KA1 fires it only at a velocity of 850, which means the rounds travel at different speeds. On top of that they both use different recoil and deviation code, where the G36A1 is slightly more accurate, but the KA1 if I'm reading the code right (deviation isn't one area I know too much about) has slightly less affected by firing so means you can fire more accurately in full auto etc.

BTW that wiki page isn't an official one so some things on there might not be accurate but it looks more like it simply doesn't go into that much subtle detail to show the differences between the two rifles.

TLDR: there code is slightly different to represent how they would be in r/l.

[PLODDITHANLEY]

K = kurz = short same with mp5 and 7 k

[Predator.v2]

G36A1:

Recoil up: 1.8
Recoil Left/Right: between -0.9 and 1.5

single shot deviation: 0.28
Maximum full auto dev: 1.2
deviation per shot: 0.65

G36KA1:

Recoil up: 1.9
Recoil Left/Right: between -0.9 and 1.3

single shot deviation: 0.29
Maximum full auto dev: 1.15
deviation per shot: 0.55

[MADsqirrel]

Currently we are using G36A3s for normal soldiers and G36K(A?)3s for most of the NCOs.

While shooting them there is no real difference noticable between them for the shooter.
The main advantage for G36K is the lowerd weight and the shorter barrell. Especially when you have to work with vehicles a short weapon is allot more usefull and if you have to stand around with your weapon for long, every gramm less is helping.
Just to tell you the RL advantages.

BTW another difference between them is that the normal G36 has no visible muzzleflash while the K version has one.

[Hurricane]

BTW:
As far as I know, the designation G36KA1 refers to a setup with a a low-profile rail made by B&T ("KSK rail) and an EOTech 552 instead of the carrying handle with dual optics, and the KAC RAS instead of the handguard. Carbine G36s with the standard carrying handle are designated just G36K afaik.

I'm not sure about G36A1 being used as an official designation as well, I mean it's obvious you have done this to distinguish it from the G36A2 upgrade with the Zeiss RSA instead of the built-in red dot (and rails on the handguard), but I have never read that anywhere in the Bundeswehr. In the armory inventory lists of my unit all of these rifles have been listed as "G36", but then again these were pretty old (I shot a G36 with a serial number <3200 at some point).

Too bad I don't know shit about modeling and can't contribute to the mod, because I'd actually love to see the G36A2 as the standard rifle for the Bundeswehr ingame, and the G36KA2 would be neat for the officer kit, too (G36K with carrying handle and built-in scope, but EOTech 552 on top).

[PLODDITHANLEY]

I would of thought the short barrel K should have more deviation then the longer barrelled one.

But in PR the real life advantages of the K lighter, better CQB can't be replicated.

[smgunsftw]

I actually wrote that page. I can also revise the weapon stats and include more details about deviation and the differences between the two rifles if you'd like.

[Rhino]

I would of thought the short barrel K should have more deviation then the longer barrelled one.

But in PR the real life advantages of the K lighter, better CQB can't be replicated.

Let me try to clear this up. The deviation code Predator.v2 is first of all incomplete, only shows 1/2 of the story and is harder to understand.

To put this as simply as possible the G36A1 is the most accurate version with the G36KA1 being slightly less accurate. The "minimum deviation" (which basically controls the maximum accuracy of the weapon after its being held still for a long time, lower number needs more accurate) for the G36A1 is 0.28, and for the G36KA1 its 0.29
This means that after the weapon has been held still, without the player moving for quite some time, the G36A1 is slightly accurate, which at medium to long range, that 0.01 difference can mean a hell of a lot.

BUT the G36KA1 (shorter barrel, carbine version) is to put it simply, is a "more controllable weapon" with its shorter barrel. Basically while its absolute maximum accuracy isn't as large as the G36A1, the G36KA1 can get to its, slightly bigger, maximum accuracy faster after moving/running around, popping out behind corners etc, making it a better weapon to use in short to medium range engagements, since you have to wait less time for it to "settle" than you do for the G36A1, but after it has settled, it isn't as accurate as the G36A1 after its also settled, but it will take longer to settle. On top of that, the G36KA1's deviation isn't affected so much by shooting, which means waiting less time between each shot for it to re-settle back to its absolute minimum deviation, and also makes it more accurate in automatic fire.

TLDR: The G36A1 is better for Medium to Long Range and the G36KA1 is better for Short to Medium Range engagements.

[saamohod]

Let me try to clear this up. ......

That was a perfect and satisfying explanation. Thanks Rhino.

[PLODDITHANLEY]

Cheers rhino so that sounds perfect. What other game could go to such lengths with a 10 year old engine. And explain it to a numbty like me.

[Predator.v2]

G36A1:

Recoil up: 1.8
Recoil Left/Right: between -0.9 and 1.5

single shot (minimum) deviation: 0.28
Maximum full auto dev: 1.2
deviation added per shot: 0.65

G36KA1:

Recoil up: 1.9
Recoil Left/Right: between -0.9 and 1.3

single shot (minimum) deviation: 0.29
Maximum full auto dev: 1.15
deviation added per shot: 0.55

This isnt the whole Recoil and Deviation code. In fact these are only the differences between both codes. After a pm, i realized that single shot deviation and deviation per shot might be a bit confusing term wise.

Code: Select all

Full deviation code:

elseIf v_arg1 == "carbine" (=G36KA1)

	ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierDeviationComp
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.minDev 0.29
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.setFireDev 1.15 0.55 0.02549
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.setTurnDev 6 0.3 0.4 0.1819
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.setSpeedDev 2.3 0.01912 0.01532 0.02072
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.setMiscDev 12 12 0.08
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModStand 1.34
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModCrouch 1.0
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModLie 0.88
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModZoom 0.3

elseIf v_arg1 == "standard" (=G36A1)

	ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierDeviationComp
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.minDev 0.28
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.setFireDev 1.2 0.65 0.02549
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.setTurnDev 6 0.3 0.4 0.1819
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.setSpeedDev 2.3 0.01912 0.01532 0.02072
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.setMiscDev 12 12 0.08
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModStand 1.34
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModCrouch 1.0
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModLie 0.88
	ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModZoom 0.3

Full recoil code:

Ironsight G36:
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierBasedRecoilComp
ObjectTemplate.recoil.hasRecoilForce 1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceUp CRD_UNIFORM/1.8/1.8/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/-0.9/1.5/1.5
ObjectTemplate.recoil.zoomModifier 0.6
ObjectTemplate.recoil.goBackOnRecoil 0

Ironsight G36K:
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierBasedRecoilComp
ObjectTemplate.recoil.hasRecoilForce 1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceUp CRD_UNIFORM/1.9/1.9/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/-0.9/1.3/1.3
ObjectTemplate.recoil.zoomModifier 0.6
ObjectTemplate.recoil.goBackOnRecoil 0

As you can see, the full deviation and recoil code is kinda unpleasant to read. You also need some knowledge to get any useful information out of this. I have worked together with K_Rivers to understand this code (last year).

As Rhino stated, the G36KA1 has a little less single fire settle time, due to the lower "setFireDev add" of 0.55 (G36KA1) to 0.65 (G36A1). The "setFireDev sub" is the same for both (-0.02549 FireDev / Frame [* ~30 frames per second]), which results in roughly 0.71s single fire settle time for the G36KA1 and 0.85s single fire settle time for the G36A1. The settle time from full auto fire is also slightly lower for the G36KA1, then for the G36A1.

In praxis this means (just tested it), it is a lot easier to fire precise fast single shots (when you don't wait the full single fire settle time), as you approximately need around 0.5-0.7s to compensate for the recoil. On the other side you can really see a difference between the G36KA1s 0.71s and the 0.85s single fire settle time of the G36A1.

But as you can clearly see, the "setTurnDev" (mouse turning deviation) and the "setSpeedDev" (movement deviation) are exactly the same for both weapons, so there isn't any difference there unlike Rhino told. So when you move your mouse to aim or run around with both rifles, you will have the exact same deviation.

I'd say, i prefer the G36KA1 over the G36A1, as the bit lower right recoil and the faster single shot settle time overweights the very slightly less maximum accuracy (minimum deviation), unless you fight on very high distances.

[saamohod]

This isnt the whole Recoil and Deviation code. In fact these are ....

Your efforts in explaining the mechanics of it are appreciated.

[spawncaptain]

Good work making the carbine stand out, I appreciate it.

Have similar changes been made to the M16 and M4 or are there no relevant differences in performance between those weapons IRL?

[Predator.v2]

Yes, it is exactly the same for the M16A4 and M4.

Pretty much the same numbers too.

[spawncaptain]

Great, thanks.

[MrTomRobs]

Yes, it is exactly the same for the M16A4 and M4.

Pretty much the same numbers too.

Maybe this is something that should be adjusted too? I've only got experience of an M4A1 from 2 years back, but I doubt the 2 rifles would have the same characteristics IRL?

But I digress, I was wondering about this myself, thanks for the explanations, and I've also learned a little more about how deviation and recoil works in 1.0.

[Rhino]

Maybe this is something that should be adjusted too? I've only got experience of an M4A1 from 2 years back, but I doubt the 2 rifles would have the same characteristics IRL?

But I digress, I was wondering about this myself, thanks for the explanations, and I've also learned a little more about how deviation and recoil works in 1.0.

What Predator meant was the same rules applied, with the M16A4 being classed as an Assault Rifle, with Assault Rifle deviation and recoil code etc and the M4 being classed as a Carbine, with Carbine Deviation and Recoil code which is pretty similar to the two versions of the G36.

Basically to put it simply, All proper Assault Rifles in PR are slightly better at medium to long range engagements where Carbines are slightly better at short to medium range engagements for the reasons posted above. However each type of rifle is a little unique in their code so some have more recoil etc based on what round they fire, their design like if they are a bullpup etc.

[MrTomRobs]

What Predator meant was the same rules applied, with the M16A4 being classed as an Assault Rifle, with Assault Rifle deviation and recoil code etc and the M4 being classed as a Carbine, with Carbine Deviation and Recoil code which is pretty similar to the two versions of the G3.

Right, totally with you now!