Medic kit rework

[BulletPr0of]

Overall I disagree with the suggestion made by the OP - mainly for the reasons brought up by SaXoni and Nayo.

However, if this was to be implement I would rather it still be limited to some degree, I think that the amount of non-medic kits with the ability to actually revive should be limited to two kits, three at a push.

Aside from medic obviously the first kit to gain this ability should be the squad leader kit, my reasoning for this, and I expect some to disagree, is because generally speaking irl they have more combat experience and are often in a position to take control of the situation and make a sound call on how to help wounded men etc, in contrast to a fresh recruit, as well as allowing him to virtually get more hands on if his medic is struggling with a revive. (This is more just justifying this kit as one of the limited few, again I would sooner it just be kept as medic only)

The second kit I feel should be included in this limited few is the standard Rifleman, although possibly going against my reasoning for the SL to have the ability I feel there is often a lack of 'just riflemen' many times in game I have seen a full squad grab every kit under the sun and within 3-4 minutes of the first engagement be asking for ammo to find everyone else is carrying a limited kit too. I feel that giving an already useful but underused kit another supporting role would 'kill two birds with one stone' per say, and squads would now have additional revive capabilities and more ammo.

My main reasoning behind wanting it limited is for these kind of scenarios; a two man squad on a hill top somewhere one with a sniper kit, the second with a HAT kit, and if everyone has the ability to revive and one get shot and has no worries about being revived as his buddy can just pen him right back up. I know they can't fully heal each other but it gives the person who has been revived chance to run to any ammo crate to throw patches at himself for the next 3-4 minutes. If they have a crate nearby nothing really changes, they can still request a medic kit so that point is unaltered and so if they have full logistical support then they can still continue on. - if you're going to kit whore without taking a medic it should be a risk, one which involves having only one 'life'.

Again, just to emphasize, I don't want any changes to be made to the amount of people being able to revive but if they were to be changed the above would be my preferred way of doing so.
Feel free to hate.

[Lugi]

Increase in weapon damage as suggested in OP would be frustrating with bf2 hit detection and unrealistic when considering body armor.

Also I'd like to point out that the soldiers are wearing heavy body armor, so taking a shot to the chest shouldn't necessarily wound you. Obviously we've all seen the video of the soldier in Iraq (or wherever) getting shot in the chest with a dragonov, and getting up like nothing ever happened.

Military News - Welsh Guard shot in the back is saved by his body armour
Check out this article. I'll put a few quotes here.
[quote=""article"]"I knelt down in an irrigation ditch in partial cover, as the rest of the FSG re-grouped along it, when I was hit in the back by a single shot. It must have been from about 2-300 metres away.

"The round knocked me down in an instant, it felt like being hit by a sledge-hammer at full swing. I slammed into the dirt face down."

He recalls: "I was in agony, I certainly couldn't walk on my own. But they had to get me out of the ditch. I was pulled out by some of the others lads, and stumbled between two of them to the HLS (helicopter landing site) about 500m away."[/quote]

Although this probably depicts the effect of being shot by PKM, the smaller ak bullet would still kick like a mf as well, as it carries about 1/3 less energy than 54R. So I wouldn't its unrealistic to go down after being hit with one round when wearing heavy body armor.

Think of it like that: the energy of a single AK 47 bullet equals roughly to a 10 kg weight falling from 20 meters height (E=mgh, 10kg*20m*10m/s^2=2000J). When that bullet hits an unprotected target most of the time it just goes right through. But if the target is protected, the heavy armor plate has to absorb all that energy, inducing that heavy "kick" which is described in the article.
Some people can say that according to the Newton's 3rd law of motion the gun's recoil should knock you back with the same amount of energy. And they're right, it does, but there is a thing that has to be taken into consideration: guns are designed in a way that allows the shooter to absorb that energy very easily (muzzle brakes, buttstocks, etc.), meanwhile the one who's getting shot is unprepared and does not expect this force.



[quote="Bluedrake42""]Also is the killing of downed players hardcoded? I thought you could only kill them with area effect weapons such as explosives and incendiary, could you make it work with knifes and guns too?[/quote]

AFAIK it's not, Point of Existence 2 developers achieved it.

There should be a thing where you drag people you revived for number 1.

Unfortunately dragging is hardcoded.

[nAyo]

This, ladies and gentleman, this is the name of the game for contemporary PR.
I have seen that babysitting countless times, i have been doing it myself all the time and it is the most immersion breaking aspect and the best action inhibitor during the attacks.

I am totally for this medic change.
Medic system needs a major rework.

And you want to give everyone the ability to revive, so you have to make sure NO ONE AT ALL is around and not only a guy hiding with a medic.

I'm sorry but how does this even make sense?

[Heavy Death]

Medic makes this game simple enough as it is, no need to nerf it. What I would do:

- Make the second crit wounded state avaliable after 10-15 minutes, not 2. (Its more than a common firefight duration, yet short enough for everybody to be 100% up for the next one. Creates more strategic decision; Should we wait for our wounds to heal completely or seize the chance at the cost of losing people if they get shot.)

- Decrease the ammount of HP upon revival, so you need to administer aid extremely fast. Second or two longer than time needed to switch from epi to medicbag and animation playing. (Area should be clear of enemies prior reviving, as the proces could be fatal to the wounded if he doesnt have 100% commitment from the medic.)

- Increase healing time to 45-60 seconds from revive to full. (Yet another elongation of the process, which would further force reviving to be a thing when a squad has emerged victorious while sustaining heavy casualities.)

IMO, reviving is the most BF2 thing, as said before and it should be brought to the point that its only done when its really appropriate, not in the middle of a firefight so they can effectively shoot back in a matter of 20 seconds. When it comes to a firefight, it needs to be duked out and if either of the parties involved starts sustaining casualties they could either push their luck in hope to be victorious afterall and then start reviving (you would be able to revive midfight aswell, but one of the remaining members, in this case medic, would be absent from the fight), or actually retreat, to set a rally while giving up the position, yet saving as much tickets as they can.

[qubolo]

And you want to give everyone the ability to revive, so you have to make sure NO ONE AT ALL is around and not only a guy hiding with a medic.

I'm sorry but how does this even make sense?

True, this point with everyone having the ability to revive is a little tricky. but it doesn't make the whole suggestion worthless.

The thing is giving everyone the means to revive, would indeed make getting back to game quicker but only if one was behind the cover when got wounded , it would discourage all those ramboing guys and force more tactical approach. The kills that you got on exposed enemies would be sure because you can finish them off

[Archosaurus]

I say just make it take a minute to get a person up and call it a day.

[Skitrel]

I can't agree with any of these suggestions. Basically it sounds like you just want to delete the Medic kit all together. The medic is the most important kit on the map.

1. Every soldier able to act as a medic makes the medic kit nothing at all and no one would want it. Everyone having medic kit would seem really cheesy too.

2.The damage models used now are near perfect, changing this would give a very unnatural aspect to the game, where every single shot would kill instantly, and the second make you dead dead. The way it is modeled now seems to work perfect. I have a little issue with how 30 cal rifles are, but its no huge deal.

3. Making downed people would be realistic, and was something I was thinking about, but really then no one would ever be relivable because when you down someone you would just put the kill shot on after that, or anyone you down in a hail of gun fire would be made dead dead if they dropped still in the line of fire. Then there would be even less use for a medic.

The line of thought needs to be about the Medic Kit being easier and more attractive to the average player.

Defiantly needs a more obvious system in place to tell them someone needs healed or revived.

The way it is now they just ignore you half the time.

Read things properly before responding. Everything you've just said has already been covered by everybody else.

1. Everyone isn't a medic, merely a hand to help someone back up. The medic is still 100% necessary for smoke cover if someone is down in the open, and necessary for actually healing the people. What this does is remove the overwhelming that occurs when 1 medic has 6 guys to get back up. If those guys are in any combat available state they should be able to move to the medic, in terms of realism. The wounds simulated in PR aren't fatal. What this does is create an effective medium between realism and the gameplay mechanic of overwhelmed medics (which many hate to play).

2. Taking a bullet and nothing happening is realistic? Take one to the chest and you're going to hit the dirt whether or not your body armour prevents serious injury, take a NATO round to the arm and I assure you it'll be a mangled shredded mess. Either way you're not at all combat effective without some sort of seeing to. Having people go down from a successful round is a great way to balance having full squads being able to pick that person up.

In terms of gameplay, this raises the need for teamwork. Going off as a lonewolf is an even worse decision to make if this were implemented, you need buddies nearby.

3. Being able to shoot downed people would be amazing for gameplay. If you're in the open and you're shot then you're dead, no argument about it. **** decision to run out in the open and get blasted.

In terms of gameplay this raises the need for people to remain in covered positions, it will lower the amount of crossing open terrain that occurs, it will make it harder on squads the play using "rush tactics". In essence, you have to make sure that if you go down you go down behind cover so that you can come back up, otherwise you're punished with a death and a ticket loss to the team. This is an excellent idea.

---

Gameplay effects:

Medic no longer gets overrun with bodies to revive.

Squads can get people up if they want to do a full retreat rather than fighting it out just to get 1 guy up, becoming pinned down and losing the whole squad.

People can be dead dead quicker, either by getting picked up in poor positions or dying in the open.

Close range combat lasts a shorter amount of time because people that get back up quicker also become dead-dead quicker, as they would now be in the danger zone for full death. My honest opinion here is that this would be a good thing. Close range combat can be a cluster---- at times for want of a better word to describe it. CQC in these circumstances would be quick, deadly, less messy, but ultimately harder to get into because crossing open ground would be infinitely more dangerous.

Long range combat firing from covered positions remains unaffected.

Crossing open ground becomes a death wish, getting shot while sprinting across a road would result in being downed rather than taking a bullet but still making it to the other side.

Ability for a squad to remain combat effective after winning a fight will remain because rally point will be available after winning.

Overall - all GREAT changes, I like it. I support it.

EDIT: I have one caveat here, vehicle weapons such as 50cals and such all need to cause dead-dead state instantly if this is to be implemented. My reasoning for this is that LATs and HATs will be quicker to get back up, and if they were downed by the vehicle they're going to know the precise location of it to get a shot off. That said, 1 HAT for the entire team is unbalanced right now on maps with good CAS pilots due to UAV lase. So it may be a good thing.

[Onil]

I don't agree with all soldiers being able to revive. Sure it can be somewhat realistic but that would always depend on the amount of damage the wounds caused. Sometimes you could simply patch him up and carry him to a safer location, sometimes you need 4 guys to carry him in a stable way to prevent more damage.

I do agree that there should be some longer ineffectiveness of a recent revived soldier so that he cannot simply return to battle as if he had just respawned. I suggested a few things before but as usual, everything was labelled as hard-coded. As I'm sure quite a few of your suggestions might be as-well.

A very simple solution to reduce the fast revives and heals due to having two medics in each squad, is by simply duplicating the medic kit and removing either the medic bag but keeping the epi and field dressings or the epi and keeping the medic bag. This pretty much means that you would always have two types of medic kits in your squad. Either both can revive but only one can heal fast with the medic kit or both can heal fast but only one can revive.

That would balance things out a bit.

In regards to confirming your kills so that they don't get revived, that would be great! But should only be doable if you are right next to the body.

[matty1053]

All I want is to have healing time shortened. Revive and then heal takes almost 45 seconds

[himond]

Completely agree with Lugi?s suggestion.

[007.SirBond]

I just want stamia drained when being hit! People should not be able to full sprint after getting shot in the chest!

[Sex_Cactus]

I like OP's suggestions.

I would also add a couple more:

1) More weapons need to cause instant kills with no possibility of revive, like anything .50 cal and over, any grenade or explosive within a certain distance (based on the explosive), and falls from a certain height. Head shots of any kind should yield instant, unrevivable death. I can't tell you how many times I've shot someone in the head with a rifle round and they run to get first aid.

2) Revived and "fully" healed soldiers still see red as a result of their previously sustained injuries. They won't bleed out, but the red screen will still pulse. It should pulse more frequently in a negative correlation to their stamina, so the less stamina you have, the more pain/red screen you experience, because obviously moving around on a leg that just got shot up is going to cause an extreme amount of pain. I would also throw in slower movement and/or less overall stamina in there because a wounded soldier is not going to be as functional as a perfectly healthy one.

The point is to make it not OK if you get shot. This will make players more careful and make the medic less potent.

[Mats391]

I just want stamia drained when being hit! People should not be able to full sprint after getting shot in the chest!

I feel the same thats why i tried to make new wounding effects that get worse the more health you lose:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/164 ... ffects.mp4

[007.SirBond]

I feel the same thats why i tried to make new wounding effects that get worse the more health you lose:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/164 ... ffects.mp4

I like this a lot!

I have noticed the black and white effect doesnt work in 1.0 as well.

This could be a good replacement, I'd also like it if Anders added a heart beating sound effect that relates to the blood on screen effect. A faster beating heart when near death with this effect would immerse players and let them know they are about to die.

[BigBang]

all reviving? really silly idea
nowdays: medic have to find wounded, revive, move to cover, heal him and all again
all-revive: medic find and sits in cover meanwhile sqmate revive wounded guy and send him to medic. Meanwhile other sqmate can look out for another wounded and revive him. Final efect? Faster comeback of the wounded guys and medics comes really frustrated and nobody wouldn't want to play with that kit because of infinite tedium...


good idea (as someone wrote but noone registered)
Give the medic only limited "sources" of medic package (healing, nowdays it's infinite) and then when he runs "low on ammo" he have to resupply at the crate/APC/truck atc. Joined together with blur screen (2-3 minutes) plus no or a few amount of sprint for revived guy. Same when you got hit - no sprint.