Insurgency Mode Civi Kills

[INVIS]

While I agree with that civies get punished too badly for dying (-10 IP points, 180secs waiting time), I'd find the shotgun a good balance to the overall situation (if they'd reduce the punishment to -5 IP points or so and 100 secs).

I love playing specialist and to arrest civies, thats one of the funniest things, same for playing civie, its nice to fool with the blufor.

[Murphy]

Wall of text.

The problem isn't the shotgun, the problem is with the civilian role not being fulfilled by the players using the civi kit. No one throws themselves in front of a tank to get blow to bits, it serves no purpose...except in PR.

[camo]

The problem isn't the shotgun, the problem is with the civilian role not being fulfilled by the players using the civi kit. No one throws themselves in front of a tank to get blow to bits, it serves no purpose...except in PR.

Yeah sorry tend to ramble when i get tired. Well they won't get blown to bits, because its not allowed, and it does serve a purpose, stopping freedom of movement. I've seen many pictures where civilians have stood in front of a tank in protest
But what you don't see in real life is a man jump out of that tank/apc, request a shotgun that magically appears and then begins slaughtering the civilians for intel.

[Skitrel]

Having finally had an issue with this last night I feel it's time to weigh in..

I was commanding on Al Basrah, we had 2 caches to go and had squads on both cache locations. The problem was that neither cache had spawned yet.

One squad had decided to go complete and total derp, they had enough negative points to destroy the game. Not just for our team though, but for the insurgents too.

As my team had successfully destroyed all enemy hideouts on the map as well as placing full squads on both cache locations insurgents had nowhere to spawn, this resulted in the entire insurgent team having a party in their main, feeling like they had nothing to do. Leaving their main would mean giving us intel, so the only winning move for them was not to play anymore. Inevitably this led to team killing and us having to throw kicks and bans around the server. 200 tickets for our team played out like this.

The current system needs reworking a little bit. One squad's missteps should NOT affect 95 other people's enjoyment of the game in such an enormously drastic fashion. Honestly, is it not enough to punish the individual player for civi kills as opposed to punishing 49 people on a team for one person being an idiot? When put in this manner does it not make complete sense that civi kills taking away intel from a team is a dangerous and easily griefable mechanism with little to no ability for admins to tell who is griefing and who is just not very good?

Raise individual punishments, remove punishment to entire team. Don't let punishment to an entire server happen again.

[Psyrus]

When put in this manner does it not make complete sense that civi kills taking away intel from a team is a dangerous and easily griefable mechanism with little to no ability for admins to tell who is griefing and who is just not very good?

Raise individual punishments, remove punishment to entire team. Don't let punishment to an entire server happen again.

As an admin, just look for the people with large negative point values... it's pretty simple.

The team should moderate their players. If one team decides not to defend at all or waste all the air assets by crashing them, the same thing ensues.

[Skitrel]

As an admin, just look for the people with large negative point values... it's pretty simple.

The team should moderate their players. If one team decides not to defend at all or waste all the air assets by crashing them, the same thing ensues.

Sure. You can look for the people with negatives. It's a little late to do anything about them though, and working out whether or not they had a good reason for doing it at the time is nigh impossible without being in the squad. There are plenty of good reasons for a civ kill here or there. Besides that, is your suggestion to punish those people with kicks or bans? Doesn't that prove that the system is broken? If the system requires admins to give players extra punishments because the game isn't punishing the right people in the right ways then clearly the mechanic needs reworking.

The issue is that this mechanic can entirely ruin a game for a full team on the basis of the actions of very few people, or even for the full server. This isn't the same as asset wasting or a lack of defence. Those are VERY visible things that occur in game, if a heli goes down to stupidity it doesn't go unnoticed, those players are immediately warned and removed if clearly trouble quickly. Civi kills aren't the same at all. Not even in the same ballpark. The only indication comes too late, and again nobody knows whether those civi kills were accidental or deliberate by that point in time.

Punishing the entire team massively for one person's actions doesn't work as a design choice when nobody will notice that person's actions until long after it has occurred.

Further to my point, the civi issue CAN be reworked, it is not something that is absolutely necessary for the game to remain PR, vehicle spawns and defending however can not. Apples and Oranges.

[Murphy]

Yeah sorry tend to ramble when i get tired. Well they won't get blown to bits, because its not allowed, and it does serve a purpose, stopping freedom of movement. I've seen many pictures where civilians have stood in front of a tank in protest
But what you don't see in real life is a man jump out of that tank/apc, request a shotgun that magically appears and then begins slaughtering the civilians for intel.

If you look real close at that picture you posted you might notice that those tanks are not shooting at anything. I'm fairly sure, no wait I'm 110% sure that if those tanks opened up with their weapons that street would clear up damn quick. If you seek to argue otherwise you need reassess your position, it's foolish to say people would STAND IN FRONT OF THE CANNON while it is firing.

[Ca6e]

Having finally had an issue with this last night I feel it's time to weigh in..

I was commanding on Al Basrah, we had 2 caches to go and had squads on both cache locations. The problem was that neither cache had spawned yet.

One squad had decided to go complete and total derp, they had enough negative points to destroy the game. Not just for our team though, but for the insurgents too.

As my team had successfully destroyed all enemy hideouts on the map as well as placing full squads on both cache locations insurgents had nowhere to spawn, this resulted in the entire insurgent team having a party in their main, feeling like they had nothing to do. .

disagree! Your team was ghosting, thats the violation of the rulez! If cache is unknown for bluefor, u cannot destroyed, and u also dont see it on map!! So u knew location of two unknonwn cache only by one way, and this way is ghosting, cause there is no way u possible know about the cache if its unknown!!! It was your team who destroy the play, and players who were ghosting!! I didnt play that time, so i am not 100% shure what heppened, but if u camp unknown cache, u did get info from someone on the other team. It couldnt be coincidence that u camp both unknown caches!

[ghostfool84]

UNKNOWNS NOT ALWAYS INVISIBLE!

We had this problem on Black Gold, we were Militia and drove through an compound were the Unknown(!!!) was, then we spotted enemys in the warehouse where the cache would spawn. We killed afew of them and entered the building and there was it, the cache was lying on the floor and an Enemy killed me, a few seconds later this cache blew up.

[labonte95]

Shouldnt the civis have more stamina since they aren't wearing armor or carrying heavy equipment?

[K4on]

no, less as they should stay away from soldiers and could abuse these mechanics.
and to support that gameplay aspect, you could say they are totally untrained and therefor slower

but meh, discuss this on if you want.

[Skitrel]

disagree! Your team was ghosting, thats the violation of the rulez! If cache is unknown for bluefor, u cannot destroyed, and u also dont see it on map!! So u knew location of two unknonwn cache only by one way, and this way is ghosting, cause there is no way u possible know about the cache if its unknown!!! It was your team who destroy the play, and players who were ghosting!! I didnt play that time, so i am not 100% shure what heppened, but if u camp unknown cache, u did get info from someone on the other team. It couldnt be coincidence that u camp both unknown caches!

There's a difference between ghosting and deducing the location of the cache because people are spawning out of thin air with no FOB in the open because the Al Basrah cache locations are silly and almost all open air.

Ghosting involves having someone on the opposing team tell you the location, or hacking.

I can assure you as I'm an admin on the server. Commander UAV. 3 caches had occurred already, so it was obvious where NOT to look, because you don't get them in the same place twice, then it's just a case of what idiots are spawning on unknown caches, easy.

[Murphy]

it's just a case of what idiots are spawning on unknown caches, easy.

I have run into this situation 2 times now. A lot of players seem to think that just because a cache hasn't spawned it's all good to spawn willy nilly and just run around as if BLUFOR won't realize what happened.

[camo]

If you look real close at that picture you posted you might notice that those tanks are not shooting at anything. I'm fairly sure, no wait I'm 110% sure that if those tanks opened up with their weapons that street would clear up damn quick. If you seek to argue otherwise you need reassess your position, it's foolish to say people would STAND IN FRONT OF THE CANNON while it is firing.

It's also foolish to say that shooting someone with a shotgun arrests civies and gives you information. Both being arrested by a shot gun and standing in front of a tank are foolish and unrealistic. The difference between them is that getting shot by a shotgun is annoying and rage inducing while having a civi stand in front of your tank is quite amusing and not really a bother to any one. And if you do get annoyed well just jump out and arrest him (the normal way, with zip ties).

[Murphy]

It's also foolish to say that shooting someone with a shotgun arrests civies and gives you information. Both being arrested by a shot gun and standing in front of a tank are foolish and unrealistic. The difference between them is that getting shot by a shotgun is annoying and rage inducing while having a civi stand in front of your tank is quite amusing and not really a bother to any one. And if you do get annoyed well just jump out and arrest him (the normal way, with zip ties).

The shotgun shouldn't be taken out anytime soon buddy, Civilians need a way to keep them in check. I would also like to point out that Shotguns are used by Police in a non-lethal manner daily all over the world. I have yet to see a tank deployed its weapon system in a non-lethal function, or have normal people not be terrified by the presence of an invading Armour force in their home town.

[camo]

The shotgun shouldn't be taken out anytime soon buddy, Civilians need a way to keep them in check. I would also like to point out that Shotguns are used by Police in a non-lethal manner daily all over the world.

Then how about a compromise on the civilians part, take away the stones or patches or make the waiting period increase to two minutes before becoming a martyr, do something because the civi class is ruined by the shotgun. Yes the police use shotguns to arrest but that isn't meant to be fair and its not a game that is meant to be fun. Also they don't use buckshot or slugs.

I have yet to see a tank deployed its weapon system in a non-lethal function, or have normal people not be terrified by the presence of an invading Armour force in their home town.

I don't get the relevance, i think i see where you're going with it but it just got muddled up in your mind.

[Mikemonster]

Before making assumptions bear reality in mind:

UK troops recount burning tank escape - Iraq - Features - In Depth

1) In this incident, a warrior was overwhelmed by a civilian mob. I presume that it refused to accelerate over them like it could have done.

2) The army retaliated and shot [dead] some civilians whilst rescuing their mates.



This puts paid to quite a lot of the 'realism' argument for either side in this thread in my eyes to be honest.