too many assets

[Rhino]

I was actually talking about standard layers, we don't often run the large layers, and for the record our server is 80 players.

Those spawn times are exactly what I'm talking about, and in my opinion are ridiculous. Continuing with Muttrah as an example; I can't remember how many BTRs spawn in, but let's say it's 3, and they're being used by a 4 man squad. This means that as long as one of them survives longer than 10 minutes, and the other crew die every five, they can keep rolling up in them every time they die until the end of the round. Do you not think that this only encourages reckless use of these assets, leading to a drain on tickets? Likewise, taking one out as US is a very temporary victory since it's 30 seconds for the crew to respawn and maybe another minute to get back into the action. Throw in said MTLBs (Minus the 30mm, which is usually taken by another squad), and you've got a practically endless supply of APCs

Are you sure your playing the AAS Standard layer? The Standard layer only has 2 (two) BTR-60s, not 3 (three). The AAS Large layer on the other hand dose have 3 (three)

This is actually the Standard loadout:
[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Rhino;1970865']AAS - Standard (64)

USMC:

USS Essex:
1x Attack Huey (No Respawn)
1x Attack Cobra (15 min Delayed Spawn)
2x AAVP7A1 (7min 30sec Respawn)
1x MV-22 Osprey (No Respawn)
2x Transport Huey (5min Respawn)
1x Transport Huey - M240D Door Guns (No Respawn)
2x RHIBs (2min Respawn, max of 5 to spawn on each spawn point, total of 10)

Docks:
1x Logi Truck (10min Delayed Spawn, max of 2)
1x LAV-25 (15min Delayed Spawn)


MEC:

Fort (MEC Main)
4x Transport Trucks (No Respawn)
4x CO Artillery (30min Delayed Spawn)

South City (all vehicles spawn at the Fort Spawn)
2x Logi Trucks (5min Respawn)
1x UAZ Support Jeep (15min Respawn)
1x MT-LB (No Respawn)
1x MT-LB HMG (7min 30sec Respawn)
2x BTR-60 (10min Delayed Spawn)
1x MT-LB 30mm (15min Delayed Spawn)
1x FV101 Scorpion (20min Delayed Spawn)[/quote]

Keep in mind a lot of those assets there do not respawn and have higher than normal respawns, other than the case of the AAVP7 which has a slightly shorter respawn to make up for the time it has to swim.

[quote="=MeRk= Morbo5131""]Let's bullet point the Pros and Cons of increasing respawn times

Pros:
Encourages cautious use of assets
Destruction of enemy assets becomes more significant, likewise loss of friendly ones
Gameplay is less stacked against infantry, which is what most players in any given game will be playing as.
Encourages cooperation between assets and infantry

Neutral:
Marginally longer rounds

Cons:
Little Timmy has to wait to use his jet after he's wasted it

If you can give me any other consequences of such a change, for or against, do so and I'll add them to that list.[/quote]

Firstly your assuming that you have more players on the server than there are assets for. This is not the case for most maps and layers unless admins run the wrong layers. Most maps have their assets calculated so there is only just enough to go round with also having a few infantry squads on top. As such your "Encourages cautious use of assets" isn't excatly a valid point as players are already cautious with them since dying means quite a long respawn, especially for something like a jet and also a massive ticket loss to the team etc. I agree a longer respawn time dose make players even more cautious, but at the cost of other things which I'll go into in a bit.

Dest of assets is already significant due to ticket costs. Yes having a longer spawn time dose make it a bit more significant since then you can "push the advantage", but that sucks for the other team and I'll go into this in more detail later.

Infantry also rely on the support of their assets working with them, with them lost, they can easily be overrun.

I also don't see how having longer spawn times affects the "cooperation between assets and infantry", that at the end of the day is all down to the squad leaders. In fact I would argue having a smaller spawn time means that infantry squads are far more likley to work with their assets as they will be around more to do so.

As for the longer rounds, that can be achieved in many other ways, simplest and best way is to increase the ticket count of maps but our current round time is what most of our players like, and I believe that if a certain server wants to have longer rounds they can increase the ticket % on their server but not sure if that's been blocked off in PR or not, can't recall.

As for your "Little Timmy" argument, your assuming every single time an asset dies its because someone screwed up. You can easily loose an asset using it correctly, if using the jet allergy, coming in for a bombing run another squad had requested and when you get their, finding an ADV that shoots you down that either the squad calling in the strike didn't see, or worse didn't report to the pilot. In that case either no one screwed up as the ADV was well hidden or w/e, or it was the SL for calling in the strike and not reporting it, not the pilot.

Now the worst bit about having longer spawn times, which I've touched on slightly above already, is the massive interval the other time has superiority, or supremacy from either a lucky kill, or worse if someone did screw up and "crash the jet". If we keep on using jets as the example, if one team dose shoot down all the other team's jets, or the other teams jets all crash or w/e, then in that re-spawn period that team will have total control of the skies, and will rain down hell on the other team as a result, pushing their advantage. This needless to say can suck for the team being hammered and if you have a really long respawn until their main asset for fighting back these jets, as well as giving them some much needed air support is 30mins or something off, by the time they respawn the game will most likley already have been lost. This also doesn't just apply to jets or w/e, this also very much applies to tanks, APCs, transport choppers or any asset but yes, generally the more powerful the asset the bigger the hit but the loss of your transport choppers which are only used for utility support, can also be a massive hit, if not a bigger hit in some cases.

It also sucks for the team with the advantage, if we talk about jets again and your in a jet with no bombs, you've just got to circle round for 30mins waiting for the next jet to come up and fight... Same also applies to tanks, its far more fun engaging other tanks than just shooting infantry in the open who don't have a chance...

As such this would be my pro and cons list:

Pros:

1. Slightly encourages more cautious use of assets
2. Destruction of enemy assets becomes more significant, likewise loss of friendly ones

Cons:

1. One team can easily push home any small advantage, easily tipping the balance of a game though one lucky shot or someone's small mistake.
2. Not as fun for both teams if you've got no more "hard" targets to kill while its respawning or for "little timmy"
3. Slightly Less cooperation between assets and infantry as assets are not as commonly around to do so

Now one idea we have talked about in the past although have never gotten round to implementing it, would be to limit the amount a certain asset can respawn, in somewhat the same way you can make assets be non-respawnable, but with more than just one spawn. This way we can have a jet or tank only respawn 3 or so times in a game, and once its died 3 times, it wont come back. This way we can much more realistically simulate air supremacy etc, while also keeping the game flowing and fun before hand and if a team dose screw up quite a bit over and over or the other team is just significantly better, then they do get the chance to push their advantage after all that hard work. This also simulates how it would be more in r/l too, as its not "C&C style build your asset and deploy it" which respawning kinda simulates, it would be shoving your assets into the fold when they where needed until you ran out of them. In the Falklands war the British could only take so many jets with them, as many as they could fit onto the deck of their carriers. If the Argentines just concentrated on destroying their jets and not bombing their ships, they would have won the war as they would have simply ran out of jets. Although when they did sink the AC they also took with it a load of British Choppers, which then resulted in the Brits having no choppers to transport their troops and the troops had to walk as another good example, although I did simulate that bit already on my Falklands map where you could destroy the AC, and with it, it's Chinook spawn

[=MeRk= Morbo5131]

For the record, I was talking about std, just didn't remember the number of BTRs. I actually thought it was 4 funnily enough. Still, 10 minutes per BTR respawn allows for 12 BTRs in one 60 min round, with the other two MT-LBs that's 4 APCs rolling around 10 minutes into the game.

As for CAS assets (Especially the Cobra on Muttrah, where there's less to effectively fight it with), 15 mins is still a ridiculously short time to wait between their loss and getting a fresh new one.
I know this isn't the thread to be discussing Muttrah's balance, but I think the CAS Huey on that map should have a 5 min, maybe even 2:30 delayed spawn to prevent it hitting trucks that're just coming out of South City

Rhino;1988188']
Pros:

1. Slightly encourages more cautious use of assets
2. Destruction of enemy assets becomes more significant, likewise loss of friendly ones

Cons:

1. One team can easily push home any small advantage, easily tipping the balance of a game though one lucky shot or someone's small mistake.
2. Not as fun for both teams if you've got no more "hard" targets to kill while its respawning or for "little timmy"
3. Encourages cooperation between assets and infantry

I don't get why what I've bolded is a con? I do agree with most of what you said, however as I mentioned, most people really don't care about the ticket cost of losing their assets. You also say most people are cautious with their assets; Who have you been playing this game with?

I also don't see how having longer spawn times affects the "cooperation between assets and infantry", that at the end of the day is all down to the squad leaders. In fact I would argue having a smaller spawn time means that infantry squads are far more likley to work with their assets as they will be around more to do so.

I have to disagree with this. 90% of the time, I see armoured assets working completely independently from infantry, and most infantry players seem take the fact that these assets exist for granted. As you say though, it depends on the SLs.

As for your "Little Timmy" argument, your assuming every single time an asset dies its because someone screwed up.

It might seem that way, but I'm not assuming anything there. I do see a lot of screw-ups but I'm not oblivious to the fact that even the most competent crews can be killed.

Now the worst bit about having longer spawn times, which I've touched on slightly above already, is the massive interval the other time has superiority, or supremacy from either a lucky kill, or worse if someone did screw up and "crash the jet". If we keep on using jets as the example, if one team dose shoot down all the other team's jets, or the other teams jets all crash or w/e, then in that re-spawn period that team will have total control of the skies, and will rain down hell on the other team as a result, pushing their advantage. This needless to say can suck for the team being hammered and if you have a really long respawn until their main asset for fighting back these jets, as well as giving them some much needed air support is 30mins or something off, by the time they respawn the game will most likley already have been lost. This also doesn't just apply to jets or w/e, this also very much applies to tanks, APCs, transport choppers or any asset but yes, generally the more powerful the asset the bigger the hit but the loss of your transport choppers which are only used for utility support, can also be a massive hit, if not a bigger hit in some cases.

It also sucks for the team with the advantage, if we talk about jets again and your in a jet with no bombs, you've just got to circle round for 30mins waiting for the next jet to come up and fight... Same also applies to tanks, its far more fun engaging other tanks than just shooting infantry in the open who don't have a chance...

I don't disagree, but I'm not talking about 30 min respawns here - An increase by 5 minutes for most assets would be adequate, and don't forget, everything you said here still applies for the current respawn times too.

Now one idea we have talked about in the past although have never gotten round to implementing it, would be to limit the amount a certain asset can respawn, in somewhat the same way you can make assets be non-respawnable, but with more than just one spawn. This way we can have a jet or tank only respawn 3 or so times in a game, and once its died 3 times, it wont come back. This way we can much more realistically simulate air supremacy etc, while also keeping the game flowing and fun before hand and if a team dose screw up quite a bit over and over or the other team is just significantly better, then they do get the chance to push their advantage after all that hard work. This also simulates how it would be more in r/l too, as its not "C&C style build your asset and deploy it" which respawning kinda simulates, it would be shoving your assets into the fold when they where needed until you ran out of them. In the Falklands war the British could only take so many jets with them, as many as they could fit onto the deck of their carriers. If the Argentines just concentrated on destroying their jets and not bombing their ships, they would have won the war as they would have simply ran out of jets. Although when they did sink the AC they also took with it a load of British Choppers, which then resulted in the Brits having no choppers to transport their troops and the troops had to walk as another good example, although I did simulate that bit already on my Falklands map where you could destroy the AC, and with it, it's Chinook spawn

I was thinking about suggesting this myself, wasn't sure it was possible. However the rounds still last around 60 minutes, the respawn rates and amounts would have to be balanced to accommodate such a system otherwise it'd be no different to the current one. I hope you guys do give it some more thought though, it'd be a great feature.

An alternative would be to have all assets spawn in at the start of the round, or with a delay, and nothing respawns except transports/logis. That way you've got everything on the table, it's up to the pertinent squads what they commit and what they reserve. I can see why this'd be a bad idea though, prone to asset stealing & griefing, if one team's tank squad has less players they're at a disadvantage etc.

As for the inflated ticket count, it'd be nice to hear as to whether it's still possible.

[Rhino]

Still, 10 minutes per BTR respawn allows for 12 BTRs in one 60 min round, with the other two MT-LBs that's 4 APCs rolling around 10 minutes into the game.

This is assuming that 1, south city is capped at the very start of the game (which it isn't) as that's required for the BTR's to even begin to start their spawn countdown, 2, that the BTR is destroyed the second it spawns and 3, it doesn't account for the delayed spawn.

It takes lets say around 5mins for south city to be capped, then you've got the 10min delayed spawn so for the first 15mins of the game, you've got no BTRs. Then, assuming its worst case scenario where the asset is destroyed the second it spawns (which can only really be done by a grefier who would probably be kicked by an admin after destroying the first one) it can only resapwn 4 times each in that time, so a max of 8. Now if we factor in a normal time for an APC to be up which is around 10mins, we are only talking ~4 in a 60min round.

As for CAS assets (Especially the Cobra on Muttrah, where there's less to effectively fight it with), 15 mins is still a ridiculously short time to wait between their loss and getting a fresh new one.
I know this isn't the thread to be discussing Muttrah's balance, but I think the CAS Huey on that map should have a 5 min, maybe even 2:30 delayed spawn to prevent it hitting trucks that're just coming out of South City

The Cobra on Muttrah is one area I would say could possibly do with a slightly longer spawn of 20mins.

Also its not possible to have a delayed, non-respawning asset currently otherwise it would have a small delay already like you've suggested. Although it should be possible if the "limited spawns" idea I posted above was implemented, as then you could set the asset up with a delay spawn of xxx time and limit it to only 1 respawn.

I don't get why what I've bolded is a con? I do agree with most of what you said, however as I mentioned, most people really don't care about the ticket cost of losing their assets. You also say most people are cautious with their assets; Who have you been playing this game with?

Sorry I meant to put there "Slightly Less cooperation between assets and infantry as assets are not as commonly around to do so" as per what I said above. I copied your one then forgot to edit it

Edited my above post now

I have to disagree with this. 90% of the time, I see armoured assets working completely independently from infantry, and most infantry players seem take the fact that these assets exist for granted. As you say though, it depends on the SLs.

My point is that w/e the spawn time of the asset, it really comes down to the SL at the end of the day. But if the asset was around more, then for the SLs that do work with other squads you would get more cooperation as a result of them not waiting back at base for their asset to respawn, and instead be in the field helping

I don't disagree, but I'm not talking about 30 min respawns here - An increase by 5 minutes for most assets would be adequate, and don't forget, everything you said here still applies for the current respawn times too.

Indeed, but gameplay wise that 5mins can make quite a bit of difference.

I was thinking about suggesting this myself, wasn't sure it was possible. However the rounds still last around 60 minutes, the respawn rates and amounts would have to be balanced to accommodate such a system otherwise it'd be no different to the current one. I hope you guys do give it some more thought though, it'd be a great feature.

Indeed, how much the asset would be limited would be very much down to the asset and what the mapper thinks is best

But ye, currently it isn't possible but if we where to tweak the python code it could be made possible, but it would require quite a bit of support in order to happen.

An alternative would be to have all assets spawn in at the start of the round, or with a delay, and nothing respawns except transports/logis. That way you've got everything on the table, it's up to the pertinent squads what they commit and what they reserve. I can see why this'd be a bad idea though, prone to asset stealing & griefing, if one team's tank squad has less players they're at a disadvantage etc.

Ye, also there is the problem of where to put all the assets. I can see a guy trying to take off a jet and crashing it into another

[mockingbird0901]

Just fealt like commenting on how we view 10-15 min to be a short respawn time in this game. Some of my friends playing BF4 go 'Gah, 20 sec for this or that to spawn.... Sooooo long!'

OK, BF4 has a very different pace compared to PR, but still.

[Brainlaag]

Just fealt like commenting on how we view 10-15 min to be a short respawn time in this game. Some of my friends playing BF4 go 'Gah, 20 sec for this or that to spawn.... Sooooo long!'

OK, BF4 has a very different pace compared to PR, but still.

Not nearly as bad as the bitching on PS2's forum about the redeploy timer being 10s, "wayyy toooo long"

[K4on]

we are discussing this aswell in the team forums. plenty of different opinions there

[matty1053]

After playing on Muttrah, I honestly had this thread in my head..... for some reason.


It was a very close round. The final score was like 8-0

We could have won, (I was USMC) but the BTR's were constantly camping the docks.... just waiting for choppers.

Our asset squads were decimated....
We had no chance, litterally. But our Infantry Really killed like 90% of the MEC.

So, then like 4 rounds later.... we played Muttrah again. I was on MEC.

MY GOD.... We could never take the flippen Cobra Down. We killed every asset. Eventually we killed the Cobra. But... well.... we didn't kill it.... he crashed into the fortress

So, I am mixed between increasing spawn time of assets.


I would stand my ground and say it's fine where it's at. But Muttrah just needs a Gopher.

[Nate.]

Now the worst bit about having longer spawn times, which I've touched on slightly above already, is the massive interval the other time has superiority, or supremacy from either a lucky kill, or worse if someone did screw up and "crash the jet".

Rhino, this is a pro, not a con
The biggest problem I have with the spawn times is that killing an enemy asset does not really mean anything for the tactical situation anymore.
Of course, you drain tickets etc, but you know that the exact same vehicle will be back after x (x being too low) minutes. That leaves almost no time to take advantage of the situation.

Enemy CAS down? Try and organize your team for a full-scale attack with vehicles and infantry. Until you are done and ready, the enemy CAS is back (10 - 15 min).

[rPoXoTauJIo]

The problem is that reward for taking down enemy asset\squad\position is too low.
Killed squad? - They will back faster than you can revive.
Killed tank? - before you even will get repaired, enemy will drive to your position with new one.

Sadly rounds now mostly being won not by tactics and strategy, but by infantry blobs and tank trains.

[Rhino]

Rhino, this is a pro, not a con
The biggest problem I have with the spawn times is that killing an enemy asset does not really mean anything for the tactical situation anymore.
Of course, you drain tickets etc, but you know that the exact same vehicle will be back after x (x being too low) minutes. That leaves almost no time to take advantage of the situation.

Enemy CAS down? Try and organize your team for a full-scale attack with vehicles and infantry. Until you are done and ready, the enemy CAS is back (10 - 15 min).

No what you quoted is a con.

I listed what your on about as a pro yes under "Destruction of enemy assets becomes more significant, likewise loss of friendly ones" but having the loss of a single asset, especially though a mistake of a single player or w/e, sway the balance dramatically is overall bad for gameplay in most cases, as I said in the bit of beyond that little bit you quoted....

I also went on to talk about a "limited spawn system" which would get the best of both worlds though a more realistic method for gaining supremacy and one where small mistakes or lucky shots wouldn't harm the entire team so much.

[=MeRk= Morbo5131]

Let's revive this discussion. I've had a 4ish-month break from PR, and this issue is one of the main reasons. I'm trying to get back into it now and I've been enjoying myself more than I was when I stopped playing. That said, the rate of assets respawning, the sheer number of them and their capabilities make it kinda pointless even taking them out. What's the point in risking yourself to take out an APC that's been hounding your team when another one will roll along in what feels like a minute later (As is sometimes the case)?
An update on the internal discussion about this would be good.

To recap,
High number of and respawn rate of assets:
Reduces the "value" of individual assets
Allows complacency with assets
Allows little breathing space for infantry
Asset loss does little to swing the course of the round (Esp. in asymmetric maps eg. Fool's Road, Fallujah)
Facilitates dominance of one team on such maps, in both combat and flag-capping

I also went on to talk about a "limited spawn system" which would get the best of both worlds though a more realistic method for gaining supremacy and one where small mistakes or lucky shots wouldn't harm the entire team so much.

I never responded to this but better late than never eh; PR used to be unforgiving, and it still should be. Players who employ assets poorly, and their team as a consequence should pay for these mistakes. Again, as it is now you can fuck up big time and lose your tank or CAS chopper in a catastrophic fireball but you're safe in the knowledge that it won't have much of an impact since you only have to wait 10-15 mins. That does nothing to deter players from being reckless and making the same mistakes, if anything it reinforces that mindset. If the asset respawn time were doubled, if someone fucks up they're like "Oh I have to wait half an hour for my <ASSETWHOREMOBILE> to respawn? I need to learn how to fuck up less". It'd also have the positive side effect of avoiding people sitting around in main and contributing absolutely nothing to the team effort while they wait for their vehicle to respawn. While there is a deficiency in the team's strength from the loss of the asset, the crew can make up for it by playing as infantry and at least help attack/defend.
I'd even be in favour of having no respawns for any heavy assets on the map but that'd be too extreme for the current playerbase to handle.
The fact of the matter is, taking out a single APC when the enemy team is mainly on the offensive will do little to turn the tide if another's going to roll up in 10 minutes leading to a steamroll situation.

[Xander[nl]]

Players who employ assets poorly, and their team as a consequence should pay for these mistakes.

I think that's a bad idea, PR is above all still a game and it's meant for fun. People should be allowed to take assets they're not that good at or familiar with for the sake of variety, and if they aren't as effective it shouldn't influence the outcome of the match for the other 45 players that much. The outcome of a match should be decided by the strength of the entire team (which keeps it fun for everybody); not by the individual performance of a couple of assets operators.

[=MeRk= Morbo5131]

;2024299']I think that's a bad idea, PR is above all still a game and it's meant for fun. People should be allowed to take assets they're not that good at or familiar with

There was a time when most people took assets seriously and would use the training servers to get some basic familiarity with those assets. I don't disagree that relatively inexperienced users of those assets should be able to use them, but they should make the effort to gain the prerequisite knowledge to employ them effectively. I've had to kick people for jumping in helicopters on their first game and rolling them on the deck and whatnot, that's no fun for anyone.

if they aren't as effective it shouldn't influence the outcome of the match for the other 45 players that much.

Don't forget that the team which loses the asset would still be capable of neutralising enemy ones. The loss of a single APC out of 4 isn't going to make such a huge difference, but if it's not going to be back within the next 20 minutes, their opposition will be able to take advantage of the space they've created for themselves.

The outcome of a match should be decided by the strength of the entire team (which keeps it fun for everybody); not by the individual performance of a couple of assets operators.

And it still would be. Just the asset operators would have to be a lot more cautious and aware when operating them. I see people making borderline retarded mistakes and taking huge risks with their vehicles that in a more competitive environment they wouldn't dream of.

Here's another fact; With the assets as they are now, most AAS maps play out virtually the same, in terms of which team gets how far. On "balanced" maps, layouts and layers, there will usually be a stalemate eg. Muttrah (I don't remember the last time I saw the US get MEC fortress in play. It sure as hell wasn't since 1.0), or on asymmetric maps it will be a steamroll, eg. Fool's Road. In the case of the balanced maps, if both teams can keep hurling their heavy assets at each other there's not going to be any significant shift in the lines because there is less opportunity to force it.

[PLODDITHANLEY]

I think we get issues as some players don't worry about ticket loss, they gauge success on only K/D so they will rush back with a respawned vehicle, it was painful as MEC CO watching a BTR squad keep doing this with about 5 BTRs.

But in a way I agree, if I could I'd only play 16 layers, plus then more assets means a huge difference if one team has a good armour squad and another a bad one.

[ComradeHX]

If you complain about too many assets then you should suggest increasing number of HAT kits.

Because full-on infantry after assets are respawning isn't very fun for 4k map.

[Frontliner]

If you complain about too many assets then you should suggest increasing number of HAT kits.

Because full-on infantry after assets are respawning isn't very fun for 4k map.

We've done that since 1.0 came to be. We're now at version 1.2 and no change in sight.

[=MeRk= Morbo5131]

If you complain about too many assets then you should suggest increasing number of HAT kits.

Because full-on infantry after assets are respawning isn't very fun for 4k map.

Stuff like trans would respawn at a similar rate to now. More trans trucks would be nice too.
Adding more HAT kits would just increase the loss rate of assets making most of the problems I outlined even worse

[Jamaican]

After reading the replys in this thread i still believe there is too many assets, i dont have a fear of them as they are always around so i get used to them being there. I want to be fearful of them or grateful when one is destroyed but im not either way, as another will be there in a couple of mins, havent played for over two weeks think im gona leave it for awhile as it just seems like a glorified version of bf2 now. I get little sense that im achieving anything while playing, kill one apc another is there before my sqd can move let alone take advantage of killing it.

[matty1053]

How are there too many assets?

[=MeRk= Morbo5131]

How are there too many assets?

Maybe if you read the rest of the thread you'd find out