Civi rule change in 1.2

[Hurricane]

1) No. If you are wounded and you don't have weapon on you when you died; who is going to say you are combatant? Anyone who do not hold a weapon is a civilian(or at least considered one for ROE purposes).


2) How terrible. If you shot a guy once and he starts to bleed out; it's up to you to finish him off.
It's usually not LOLBF2NETCODE; it's LOLCODNOOBCANTAIM.

1) So there's this guy running around with an AK shooting at me. He's clearly a combatant according to my RoE. I shoot back and wound him without immediately killing him.
He manages to break line of sight and get away. I can't pursue him because my orders are to .... (whatever) or because my squad needs to focus on a certain objective.

Now if he drops his weapon, it doesn't change the fact that I only engaged a combatant and not a civilian. This is not a question of proof after he died, but a way to stop an exploit in the insurgency game mode that would cost bluefor 10 intel points despite them doing nothing wrong. If you had read my post you would have realized I don't want bluefor to become even stronger in INS (the opposite is the case), but this is a fairplay issue to me and therefore rightly fixed.

2) This also isn't about personal skill. Sometimes it's simply not possible to kill an enemy immediately, and if I wanted to chase and finish off every single guy I have hit I'd be playing BF3 or something like that.

[StandardSmurf]

I understand the intent of the DEV by changing this, however I don't personally like it. The drop kit fix is good, but the 10m radius punishment is no bueno IMO. For one I liked the regular civi kits from a few patches ago that PR INS always had, that was actually fun. Using a civi as a human shield is cheap, but also kinda funny and not far from unrealistic. How are civis supposed to stay 10 m away from any armed insurgents the whole round that's just going to make people never be a civi. Please change it back remove the punishment and just bring back a regular civi kit. Thanks !

[ComradeHX]

1) So there's this guy running around with an AK shooting at me. He's clearly a combatant according to my RoE. I shoot back and wound him without immediately killing him.
He manages to break line of sight and get away. I can't pursue him because my orders are to .... (whatever) or because my squad needs to focus on a certain objective.

Now if he drops his weapon, it doesn't change the fact that I only engaged a combatant and not a civilian. This is not a question of proof after he died, but a way to stop an exploit in the insurgency game mode that would cost bluefor 10 intel points despite them doing nothing wrong. If you had read my post you would have realized I don't want bluefor to become even stronger in INS (the opposite is the case), but this is a fairplay issue to me and therefore rightly fixed.

2) This also isn't about personal skill. Sometimes it's simply not possible to kill an enemy immediately, and if I wanted to chase and finish off every single guy I have hit I'd be playing BF3 or something like that.

You did plenty wrong when you shot and didn't kill.

And whoever "ordered" you to be lazy and not make sure he is dead is also at fault, blufor still at fault.

Loss of intel is to punish blufor for being bad； if blufor is any decent, there would rarely be instance of ins martyr by dropping kit after getting shot. In case you failed to read； it's punishment for failing to kill anything despite vastly superior firepower.

Are you claiming that checking if people you shot are dead or not is bf4?

You shot someone； he drops weapon and walk to hospital, if he's healed, he comes back to shoot you； if he bled out, you just killed a civilian. Realistic because the guy reporting it on the news isn't going to care if he is actual civi； all he say is unarmed man bled out in street after wounded by blufor.

If you wanted to be triggerhappy blufor noob that older civi rule heavily punishes, you really should go play bf4.

Older rule forces blufor to think about when to engage enemy if at all； that's realistic and adds a new dimension of play to both sides.
Now civi is nerfed to ground, rarely will people play civi； who are specialist going to arrest? Gameplay is dumbed down for both sides because blufor noobs cried about his own incompetence.

Fact is that organized and competent blufor didn't have problem with older civi rule； if blufor is disorganized and incompetent, why should they get intel/win?

I have been playing pr heavily before 1.2 on both sides of insurgency maps...after 1.2 I don't even want to play another fallujah game.

[Hurricane]

You did plenty wrong when you shot and didn't kill.

And whoever "ordered" you to be lazy and not make sure he is dead is also at fault, blufor still at fault.

Loss of intel is to punish blufor for being bad； if blufor is any decent, there would rarely be instance of ins martyr by dropping kit after getting shot. In case you failed to read； it's punishment for failing to kill anything despite vastly superior firepower.

You shot someone； he drops weapon and walk to hospital, if he's healed, he comes back to shoot you； if he bled out, you just killed a civilian. Realistic because the guy reporting it on the news isn't going to care if he is actual civi； all he say is unarmed man bled out in street after wounded by blufor.

If you wanted to be triggerhappy blufor noob that older civi rule heavily punishes, you really should go play bf4.

Older rule forces blufor to think about when to engage enemy if at all； that's realistic and adds a new dimension of play to both sides.
Now civi is nerfed to ground, rarely will people play civi； who are specialist going to arrest? Gameplay is dumbed down for both sides because blufor noobs cried about his own incompetence.

Did nothing wrong in terms of my RoE ... Way to ignore my point. Playing with focus on objectives is not being lazy. Loss of intel is punishment for RoE violations, not ineffective combat (punishment for this is losing the round). You also completely ignored my point that the issue is not being able to proof you shot a combatant irl, but the exploit being harmful to the game mode.

You even failed to realize I want MORE CIVIES in PR and accuse me of being the trigger happy bluefor only player. Seriously, read. my. fucking. posts. before replying. You can't seriously be this ignorant and illiterate, by now I'm convinced you're trolling and won't reply to your shitposting anymore. I don't care in the slightest that you constantly call me a noob, but hey, at least now I know who to invite into my squad if I need a better player than me, someone who kills every single enemy he shoots at immediately.
Can we keep this thread more civilized again please?

[ComradeHX]

Did nothing wrong in terms of my RoE ... Way to ignore my point. Playing with focus on objectives is not being lazy. Loss of intel is punishment for RoE violations, not ineffective combat (punishment for this is losing the round). You also completely ignored my point that the issue is not being able to proof you shot a combatant irl, but the exploit being harmful to the game mode.

You even failed to realize I want MORE CIVIES in PR and accuse me of being the trigger happy bluefor only player. Seriously, read. my. fucking. posts. before replying. You can't seriously be this ignorant and illiterate, by now I'm convinced you're trolling and won't reply to your shitposting anymore. I don't care in the slightest that you constantly call me a noob, but hey, at least now I know who to invite into my squad if I need a better player than me, someone who kills every single enemy he shoots at immediately.
Can we keep this thread more civilized again please?

In term of ROE there was nothing wrong with shooting the guy while he still had his weapon.
BUT he dropped his weapon and bled out...he died OUT of ROE.

But in PR who's going to recognize him and testify that you actually did shoot the guy when he had weapon? No one.

What you call "exploit" made INS fun and wasn't even a significant issue unless BluFor were all terrible.

Clean up your own mess or it comes back to bite you; that's reality.

I read your posts; you clearly didn't read mine.

I didn't call you a noob; I was saying if you wanted to be "that noob blufor" then you should play some other game.

You still dodge the fact that properly played BluFor didn't have problem with older civi rule.

Can't hit someone more than once with regular rifle? First of all, GET CLOSER. Or maybe that marksman/AR/shotgun/MG in your squad can...or maybe that APC/humvee next to you can...
Blufor has a LOT of options to kill someone so hard they die of death while insurgents didn't.

Old civi rule was fine; as it made BluFor more hesitant to use all of available firepower. That was good balance.

[matty1053]

Civi can't heal anymore. It's already nerfed once.

Current diversified loadout(and clothing combination) is fine.


No. If you are wounded and you don't have weapon on you when you died; who is going to say you are combatant? The guy who shot you?(if he shot you; you should not be able to get away far)

Or is BluFor going to outrageously claim and anyone who got shot is a combatant and that all civi kills don't mean anything?

Have you not read anything in that link? Anyone who do not hold a weapon is a civilian(or at least considered one for ROE purposes).

How terrible. If you shot a guy once and he starts to bleed out; it's up to you to finish him off.
It's usually not LOLBF2NETCODE; it's LOLCODNOOBCANTAIM.




The gunner didn't "die."

He got arrested and was being transported back to base for questioning. huehuehuehuehue

In PR for all intents and purposes he is "dead" and with long respawn time.

You sound mad.

I don't feel anymore "Civilianish" anymore. I miss the good ol' Civi Kit!

But I tend to like the new changes.

[Psyrus]

Guys, just to clarify one point, you're not made a combatant if you enter the radius of another insurgent, you're just not counted as a martyr if you die within 10m of a combatant.

So if you casually walk by someone but then are killed a few seconds later outside of the 10m radius, you're still a martyr.

[ComradeHX]

[quote=""'[R-CON"]Psyrus;2009911']Guys, just to clarify one point, you're not made a combatant if you enter the radius of another insurgent, you're just not counted as a martyr if you die within 10m of a combatant.

So if you casually walk by someone but then are killed a few seconds later outside of the 10m radius, you're still a martyr.[/quote]

But the status of whether you are within 10m does not refresh fast enough; like the status for Bradley moving or not(for ATGM).
I have already had a few seconds after the only friendly died within 10m and I still got killed without martyr.

It's a horrible change.

And if I wanted to run into gun fire, I can still do it; just need to run 10m behind someone.

There was nothing wrong with ins being within 10m of civi. Insurgents can blend into crowd of civis IRL too; you don't shoot any civi within 10m and get away with it. Civi got nerfed which negatively affect both realism AND gameplay.

There is a lot more nerf than simply not being able to run next to regular insurgents to get martyr.
You can't be in cache building anymore so blufor can spam grenades all they way.
[quote="matty1053""]You sound mad.

I don't feel anymore "Civilianish" anymore. I miss the good ol' Civi Kit!

But I tend to like the new changes.[/quote]

You sound bad.

Old civi kit was too much(hook and medic bag).
Then newer civi kit got it just right with binos.

[Mats391]

But the status of whether you are within 10m does not refresh fast enough; like the status for Bradley moving or not(for ATGM).
I have already had a few seconds after the only friendly died within 10m and I still got killed without martyr.

There is no refreshing on the 10m check, only on the wounded drop. Please make an bug report in the appropriate forum if you got killed w/o being inside ROE.
Especially report whether you dropped your kit while bleeding or not.

[K4on]

This thread isnt clearly about feedback, more a discussion thread where comrad is stating his same points over and over again.

Please get back to a proper feedback thread.

Thanks!

[ComradeHX]

This thread isnt clearly about feedback, more a discussion thread where comrad is stating his same points over and over again.

Please get back to a proper feedback thread.

Thanks!

I had to explain it again and again to people who can't read.

[tankninja1]

I like the new rules, the old ones were abused all the time.

[Anderson29]

Psyrus;2009911']Guys, just to clarify one point, you're not made a combatant if you enter the radius of another insurgent, you're just not counted as a martyr if you die within 10m of a combatant.

So if you casually walk by someone but then are killed a few seconds later outside of the 10m radius, you're still a martyr.

having actually been to iraq....i dont like the changes as far as gameplay goes. ROE IRL was a ***** and insurgents used it against us very well. the slightest possibility of killing civis is why armed forces would rarely use mortars/artillery or the main gun of the tank or the main gun of an apc. to fire those heavy weapons you had to get a commander's approval.

now mortars/cas/tanks can (without worry now) spam the cache and i dont like that.

i have never dropped my weapon to punish blufor but i thanked the guys who did. we actually won sometimes as insurgents.

with the perma-rallies, all weapons with optics, and armor for blufor and the unorganization and lack of simple co-operation for opfor, how can insurgents stand a chance?

this should be reverted honestly. for gameplay sake, for goodness sake.

[K4on]

having actually been to iraq....i dont like the changes as far as gameplay goes. ROE IRL was a ***** and insurgents used it against us very well. the slightest possibility of killing civis is why armed forces would rarely use mortars/artillery or the main gun of the tank or the main gun of an apc. to fire those heavy weapons you had to get a commander's approval.

now mortars/cas/tanks can (without worry now) spam the cache and i dont like that.

i have never dropped my weapon to punish blufor but i thanked the guys who did. we actually won sometimes as insurgents.

Honestly, using your own life to save the armed insurgent so he can kill the bluefor guys, should turn you into an insurgent aswell. Because you take actively part in helping to kill the bluefor solider.
As this tactic was commonly abused in PR, we decided to put that feature in and see how it works out.
If it doens't, hey lets just skip it again.

Your point of mortar/arti also still applies with this feature, as the radius is just 10m. So shooting at unknown areas with high explosives is still a high risk and can end in fatality.

[ComradeHX]

Honestly, using your own life to save the armed insurgent so he can kill the bluefor guys, should turn you into an insurgent aswell. Because you take actively part in helping to kill the bluefor solider.
As this tactic was commonly abused in PR, we decided to put that feature in and see how it works out.
If it doens't, hey lets just skip it again.

Your point of mortar/arti also still applies with this feature, as the radius is just 10m. So shooting at unknown areas with high explosives is still a high risk and can end in fatality.

Saving someone isn't the same as killing someone else.
That's what ROE is about: no weapon not combatant.

Assuming loss of intel simulates BluFor's lowered reputation among locals which leads to little/no cooperation from locals regarding position of ins weapon cache, people dropping weapon then bled out would still be fine. Because all people will see is an unarmed man who bled out from wound by 5.56mm ammo; no one else knows whether he had been ins or not.

If that's considered "abuse" then BluFor should have mortar and area attack removed; and no restrainers...etc.
Make it so that Civi CANNOT be arrested by any means if 10m radius and other change is to stay.
-----------
Mortar/other area of effect attacks are no more "high risk" anymore since cache room(#1 target for mortar/area attack/apc/grenadespam) is generally smaller than 10m. You know this.

[Anderson29]

Honestly, using your own life to save the armed insurgent so he can kill the bluefor guys, should turn you into an insurgent aswell. Because you take actively part in helping to kill the bluefor solider.
As this tactic was commonly abused in PR, we decided to put that feature in and see how it works out.
If it doens't, hey lets just skip it again.

Your point of mortar/arti also still applies with this feature, as the radius is just 10m. So shooting at unknown areas with high explosives is still a high risk and can end in fatality.

yeah i see where you DEVs are coming from, but i cant grab a civi by his clothes and force him to be my shield in-game. i cant tell a little girl to run out and grab the dead insurgent's rpg or i kill her family.

what we had was a unique and creative aspect of gameplay which has be taken away...that is how i see it. yeah civis work with the insurgents but how else can my above statement be simulated?

the games i had played before the update were some of the closest and exciting insurgency matches ive played in a while and i've been here since before insurgecy was created.



love,
Ande

ps - could we please get .98 rallies back.

[Nightingale]

Frequent insurgent player here.

The dropped kit exploit was something that needed to be fixed. As much as I like punishing the BluFor, I think its basically just cheating to drop your kit and bleed out as a civvie.

But I don't understand the 10 meter anti-human-shield mechanism. If all you wanted was to stop people from shooting between a civvie's legs, then wouldnt 1 meter have worked? Now, we civvies cant even be in the cache building because that 10 meter radius covers basically everything inside. 10 meters makes being a civvie totally pointless. You cant get your buddies to protect you from the BluFor and you can't even protect the cache from APC fire because your martyr will always be cancelled out by friendlies moving inside the building.

I think it would be better to decrease the range to 1.0m, AND have the anti-martyr effect only come into play ONLY if the civvie has been stationary for more than 2.0s.

If you guys wanted to reduce the civvie exploits, I'm surprised you haven't done anything about medics looking just like civvies. When you are a medic, holding your binos/resuscitate makes you look just like a civvie. I used to trick the enemy into trying to arrest me then shooting him with a Skorpion. The medic should have an armband or something subtle to distinguish him from an actual civvie. This is a much bigger problem than human shield ever was.

[matty1053]

After playing like 10 rounds on Fallujah the past 2 days...

What I enjoy about the rule:

Really adds some great teamplay.
You have to actually THINK as an insurgent.
Actually is fun now as an insurgent.

What I do NOT enjoy:
Nothing much.




I do like the new rules... Don't remove them please.

But at least the Blufor can take a sigh of relief.
And before this rule, I think i only got about 5 unarmed kills.

[Psyrus]

But I don't understand the 10 meter anti-human-shield mechanism. If all you wanted was to stop people from shooting between a civvie's legs, then wouldnt 1 meter have worked? Now, we civvies cant even be in the cache building because that 10 meter radius covers basically everything inside. 10 meters makes being a civvie totally pointless.

I think it would be better to decrease the range to 1.0m, AND have the anti-martyr effect only come into play ONLY if the civvie has been stationary for more than 2.0s.

*The bold part probably won't happen as it'll create quite a timer/code overhead. Just FYI

The original proposal was for a smaller radius, but I think it was decided that 10m would be a good starting point and we could tweak it down if need be. As it has always been said, development is an ongoing beast and just because the change is introduced, doesn't mean it's set in stone. I would personally be happy with anything from 2-5m at the very most.

I also think that with the new anti-human shield & lack of drop-kit-exploit, the ROE timer can revert back to 60s because 120s is far too long IMO for the gameplay that PR deals with. Again, this is just my opinion as a player, and ultimately it's not my decision anyway.

I have a bunch of other IRL projects going on, but I hope to make some proposals for giving the insurgents some love in future patches to balance out the loss of their exploits. We'll see how it goes. Don't forget, there are suggestion forums open for you guys too! Suggestions also have a much higher chance of implementation if the suggester has a working proof-of-concept.

[LakeMole]

Suggestions also have a much higher chance of implementation if the suggester has a working proof-of-concept.

What we had before these patches worked great! Thanks!