Civi rule change in 1.2

[ComradeHX]

What we had before these patches worked great! Thanks!

+1

You can keep the not allowing drop-kit martyr.

Just remove the stupid 10m radius.

[Psyrus]

+1

You can keep the not allowing drop-kit martyr.

Just remove the stupid 10m radius.

I'd appreciate if you'd refrain from calling my and other peoples' work stupid, I don't make light of what you do, so if you could have some tact... perhaps?

That being said, I'm sure the effects of the changes will be monitored in the stats and whatnot, but as of now you're just a broken record ComradeHX and you've sufficiently pissed me off to the point that I won't be wasting my time reading your feedback on this issue anymore, since K4on summarized it quite succinctly.

This thread isnt clearly about feedback, more a discussion thread where comrad is stating his same points over and over again.

[mries]

Now when you get shot and you drop your kit the Blufor won?t be punished(very good point, no cheating by this!)
But when you spawn for example as an warrior and you drop your kit without getting shot, will you still change to a civi after 1 min?
Because it is nice if you are a civi with different clothing to trick the enemy apc's.
Or is it with this patch that when you drop your weapon you will never change to civi?

Cheers,

[Psyrus]

Now when you get shot and you drop your kit the Blufor won?t be punished(very good point, no cheating by this!)
But when you spawn for example as an warrior and you drop your kit without getting shot, will you still change to a civi after 1 min?
Because it is nice if you are a civi with different clothing to trick the enemy apc's.
Or is it with this patch that when you drop your weapon you will never change to civi?

Cheers,

The timer is currently 2 minutes, and if you drop your kit and wait the ROE time and die >10m away from an armed combatant, you'll be a martyr.

[ComradeHX]

I'd appreciate if you'd refrain from calling my and other peoples' work stupid, I don't make light of what you do, so if you could have some tact... perhaps?

That being said, I'm sure the effects of the changes will be monitored in the stats and whatnot, but as of now you're just a broken record ComradeHX and you've sufficiently pissed me off to the point that I won't be wasting my time reading your feedback on this issue anymore, since K4on summarized it quite succinctly.

I could say that 10m radius was "not smart" instead.
Still didn't change the fact that INS was nerfed(reason: "exploit") and BluFor buffed(so BluFor has a rooftop sniper ninja superkit).

And if it's all adjustable like you posted; why isn't it hotfixed already? Every round of INS I play has almost 0 civi(I made squad called civi and it never got above 5 people).

I seriously doubt there is any stat being monitored; because if there is, you would have stated that INS was winning too often with too little cache revealed...etc. and that would have been a justifiable nerf/buff respectively.

[fatalsushi83]

I feel that dropping your kit after being wounded so you could die as a martyr was an exploit. If you shoot an aggressive combatant and wound him, you're obeying ROE. You shouldn't be punished for this just because he dropped his AK before passing out from blood loss. I'm a hardcore insurgent player but I'm glad the devs fixed this. Thank you!

The 10 meter radius, though, is overdone IMO. If you're in or near the cache building you will almost certainly be within 10 meters of a combatant so I imagine IFVs and tanks will continue using their cannons recklessly. I'm up for reducing this to 1-3 meters like others have said or removing it altogether. Anderson29 has a really good point about insurgents using the ROE against their enemies, and insurgents do use human shield tactics in real life, right?

Also, how many civilians do you need to kill in 10 minutes before you're executed? Is this rule even still active? From my experience playing insurgency, the biggest problem is when a few players on blufor continuously kill civilians, making the caches unspawable and the game boring for everyone. So I think stricter punishments for people who kill civilians rather than rules that makes civilians easier to kill without being punished should be implemented, IMHO.

[ComradeHX]

I feel that dropping your kit after being wounded so you could die as a martyr was an exploit. If you shoot an aggressive combatant and wound him, you're obeying ROE. You shouldn't be punished for this just because he dropped his AK before passing out from blood loss. I'm a hardcore insurgent player but I'm glad the devs fixed this. Thank you!

The 10 meter radius, though, is overdone IMO. If you're in or near the cache building you will almost certainly be within 10 meters of a combatant so I imagine IFVs and tanks will continue using their cannons recklessly. I'm up for reducing this to 1-3 meters like others have said or removing it altogether. Anderson29 has a really good point about insurgents using the ROE against their enemies, and insurgents do use human shield tactics in real life, right?

Also, how many civilians do you need to kill in 10 minutes before you're executed? Is this rule even still active? From my experience playing insurgency, the biggest problem is when a few players on blufor continuously kill civilians, making the caches unspawable and the game boring for everyone. So I think stricter punishments for people who kill civilians rather than rules that makes civilians easier to kill without being punished should be implemented, IMHO.

You still didn't read.

If someone drops his weapon; he is civi according to that same ROE.

Also, most insurgents do not have body armour iirc; how often is it that people actually bleed out?
Most of time when I get a round of INS where BluFor can't find any cache; it's because we have a civi squad and BluFor kept shooting them with AR/APC(I know that because I was in the civi squad every time).

==========================

Is it a surprise to anyone that CIA(on 24/7 insurgency event) isn't full on a weekend?

[crazygamelover]

Even if the devs got rid of the 10m radius thing, spawning on a cache would still make you a combatant because you have to wait two minutes after spawning as a civi before you can actually be martyred. If it's possible, I think that should be fixed(the spawn thing).

[ComradeHX]

Even if the devs got rid of the 10m radius thing, spawning on a cache would still make you a combatant because you have to wait two minutes after spawning as a civi before you can actually be martyred. If it's possible, I think that should be fixed(the spawn thing).

It was fine in 1.1.6.

You can spawn in main and walk to cache building.

Or just drop your kit immediately after spawning in cache building; enemies didn't know if y ou are past 2 min or not.

Now everyone knows the 10m rule so you get shot in cache building in any case.


Cia event cancelled.
Thanks a lot patch 1.2.

[fatalsushi83]

If someone drops his weapon; he is civi according to that same ROE.

So here's how it would play out by your logic in real life: An insurgent is shot and heavily wounded because he has a weapon and is fighting (no breach in ROE). However, after being shot he drops his weapon, crawls into a ditch a few meters away, passes out and dies. The soldier who shot him is punished for murder because the insurgent he shot dropped his weapon before he passed out and died. If the insurgent had had a weapon in his hands when he died, however, the soldier who shot him would not have been punished.

It's a completely absurd situation, which is why dropping your so you could martyr was an exploit and nothing more.

[fatalsushi83]

If someone drops his weapon; he is civi according to that same ROE.

So here's how it would play out by your logic in real life: An insurgent is shot because he has a weapon and is fighting (no breach in ROE). However, after being shot he drops his weapon, crawls into a ditch a few meters away, passes out and dies. The soldier who shot him is punished for murder because the insurgent he shot dropped his weapon before he passed out and died. If the insurgent had had a weapon in his hands when he died, however, the soldier who shot him would not have been punished.

It's a completely absurd situation, which is why dropping your weapon so you could martyr was an exploit and nothing more.

[ComradeHX]

So here's how it would play out by your logic in real life: An insurgent is shot because he has a weapon and is fighting (no breach in ROE). However, after being shot he drops his weapon, crawls into a ditch a few meters away, passes out and dies. The soldier who shot him is punished for murder because the insurgent he shot dropped his weapon before he passed out and died. If the insurgent had had a weapon in his hands when he died, however, the soldier who shot him would not have been punished.

It's a completely absurd situation, which is why dropping your weapon so you could martyr was an exploit and nothing more.

It's not an individual punishment.
It's a loss on intel. The soldier wasn't punished(he got a longer respawn timer; except you don't respawn irl); the team was; and it was only an arbitrary 10 intel points which can be easily gained. Because the local kid saw the dead body in the ditch that has no gun; he thinks amerikan shoots civi for fun, and he will help the insurgents instead of telling BluFor about where armed men are gathering(where cache might be).

You didn't read.
Troops: Strict war rules slow Marjah offensive | Army Times | armytimes.com
No weapon; not combatant.

In case you have not heard; ROE is absurd.(especially when you fight against an enemy that does not follow it)
IRL even if you see firearm; as long a it's not pointed at you or your people, it's not hostile intent and you are not authorized to use lethal force.

https://info.publicintelligence.net/USA ... nettes.pdf
Page 19
They are noncombatants if they are incapacitated/cannot reach weapon.
Page 23
You are also not allowed to target anyone who is wounded and out of combat(in game it's an insurgent who got shot and dropped his kit).


Too bad most of this isn't in the game. I hope this is the last time I need to explain this.

[fatalsushi83]

It's a loss on intel. The soldier wasn't punished(he got a longer respawn timer; except you don't respawn irl); the team was; and it was only an arbitrary 10 intel points which can be easily gained. Because the local kid saw the dead body in the ditch that has no gun; he thinks amerikan shoots civi for fun, and he will help the insurgents instead of telling BluFor about where armed men are gathering(where cache might be).

OK, you have a good point there. I'll have to play more before I figure out whether this new rule is bad for gameplay, though.

[Cavazos]

I don't think we need the anti-human shield option. Only when the collaborators first introduced to PR was it an issue. Sometimes they will be in the way of insurgents in-game, yea. But it isn't being abused and I find it adds to game play.

However, adding the kit drop rule is definitely good. It never crossed my mind to use that. Most people do not believe they will last that long when bleeding so most people didn't even use it.

[Killer2354]

I do mirror everyone else with the changes. The 'drop your kit after shot' was an exploit and I personally never did it. And while I am personally not a fan of the 'meat shield shield' both in a reality sense and gameplay sense, I think that 1-2m would be, at max, the best compromise.

I can't even play civi at the moment because if I'm on a roof that you need a ROPE to get up to and someone walks underneath me, I can get shot without punishment to the enemy.

[Ragnarok1775]

Human shield? Civilian? What's what? They're all a bunch of savages and barbarians.

[ComradeHX]

Human shield? Civilian? What's what? They're all a bunch of savages and barbarians.

As much as french people have standard issue white flags.

Not all of them.

[Ragnarok1775]

Comrade, I am not French. This is not really the place for political debate, but, the only people the Taliban ever feared were American, British, and French troops. Rumor was that the reason some people never got attacked (I won't mention their nationality, but they speak Italian) was because they paid the bad guys to leave them alone. "French" troops did not surrender at Camerone, Dien Bien Phu, Al-Salman...

Anyone who believes in a nutcase who married a 6 year old girl when he was in his 50s (don't care what BS anyone says, that was not the norm back in the 7th century either) is a savage. On top of drinking camel piss and believing the world is flat.

ROE is ridiculous for US troops. They are the only ones who ever really follow it, and that's why they get killed more often.

If we are gonna try to simulate all that, then medics shouldn't be fired on unless they take aggressive action. Back in the days of my grandpa, medics carried pistols because Commies didn't care about the rules. In the days of my great grandpa, they were unarmed. Chaplains still are. What about surrendering and prisoners? Or wounded?

[ComradeHX]

Comrade, I am not French. This is not really the place for political debate, but, the only people the Taliban ever feared were American, British, and French troops. Rumor was that the reason some people never got attacked (I won't mention their nationality, but they speak Italian) was because they paid the bad guys to leave them alone. "French" troops did not surrender at Camerone, Dien Bien Phu, Al-Salman...

Anyone who believes in a nutcase who married a 6 year old girl when he was in his 50s (don't care what BS anyone says, that was not the norm back in the 7th century either) is a savage. On top of drinking camel piss and believing the world is flat.

ROE is ridiculous for US troops. They are the only ones who ever really follow it, and that's why they get killed more often.

If we are gonna try to simulate all that, then medics shouldn't be fired on unless they take aggressive action. Back in the days of my grandpa, medics carried pistols because Commies didn't care about the rules. In the days of my great grandpa, they were unarmed. Chaplains still are. What about surrendering and prisoners? Or wounded?

It does not matter.

I used french because french people gets labeled as 100% surrender all the time, incorrectly. French troops also tried very hard at first in WW2.

The point is that they are not "savages and barbarians." I don't need to go into history of the Muslim world; but remember all the Crusades(current one is still on-going and it's still not looking like Christians won much).

[Psyrus]

Could you guys get back on-topic please, or take it to PMs?