Truism wrote:I don't understand why the kit is retained out of Afghanistan, and all my original points remain extant. No other faction has an SF kit, and no one has had an SF kit since, like, 0.8. Dutch SF is not particularly big or renowned, and if there's any argument for Dutch to have SF, there's an argument for every faction to have SF.
I still don't understand why this kit is in the release version.
Because it's NOT an SF kit...
The kit layout is the same as any other blufor faction. And the HK416 is there for variety's sake. It's certainly not OP compared to the C7's that most other kits use. It also doesn't have a nice scope or anything, just an aimpoint.
[R-DEV]AfterDune wrote:Because it's NOT an SF kit...
The kit layout is the same as any other blufor faction. And the HK416 is there for variety's sake. It's certainly not OP compared to the C7's that most other kits use. It also doesn't have a nice scope or anything, just an aimpoint.
How special do you have to be to be counted as SF in PR?
Hk416 isn't op compared to rest of C7; because C7 are already OP.
[R-DEV]AfterDune wrote:Don't know when one can consider a kit or faction as SF. Probably a combination of specific kit layouts and missions.
How are C7's OP?
I was asking how "special"(as in how closely tied to regular army and its logistics...etc. it is) would the real life counter part of the kit be to be considered too Special Forces to be added to PR.
C7: low recoil(almost negligible when using ironsight on full auto, like every AR-15 variant in PR), high rof.
It's not as obvious at longer ranges but shortrange it's fairly obvious. The recoil does not jump left/right much unlike AK-74(not sure why that's the case in PR, AK-74 muzzle brake IRL is super effective).
If two people shoot at same time while aiming center mass in cqb, the one with C7 is going to win 99% of time.
I've been caught reloading C7 and STILL killed enemy(with AK-74M) because C7 can spray a lot of rounds that can be effective even when hipfiring.
That's also why Insurgency with Canadians is easy mode.
Last edited by ComradeHX on 2014-06-02 12:02, edited 2 times in total.
Maybe it (supressed C could find a nice place within the dutch spotter kit? It would kinda make sense, too, with sniper teams or the guys who operate as forward observers being rather elite infantry.
Maybe that would be possible within other factions, too, to make the spotter kit a little more attractive. I rarely see people using it ingame.
As an example for the Bundeswehr, here's a G36K IdZ-ES and a G36KA2, both with supressors:
Spoiler for Image:
Spoiler for Image:
[R-DEV]AfterDune wrote:
How are C7's OP?
I wouldn't say OP, but they certainly are among the best assault rifles ingame.
Pros:
+Accurate
+come with optics
+very easy to control in full auto, spread pattern almost guarantees a kill when simply spraying at close range
Cons:
- ???
It really is an excellent rifle at all kinds of ranges.
[R-DEV]AfterDune wrote:Because it's NOT an SF kit...
The kit layout is the same as any other blufor faction. And the HK416 is there for variety's sake. It's certainly not OP compared to the C7's that most other kits use. It also doesn't have a nice scope or anything, just an aimpoint.
But in your previous post, you explained that the kit was to model special forces from Afghanistan. If the kit is not SF, why does it have a silencer? Silencers aren't issued to your line troops.
I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it, arguing it's realistic because Dutch SF used silencers in Afghanistan, and arguing it fits into the general PR design philosophy because it's not SF. Those two arguments don't work together.
I really don't get the problem here. Are you just butthurt because 'Murica doesn't get equally cool tools?
It's one kit. It adds diversity, fun, more interesting gameplay without being overpowered. Breacher has been my main kit in my clan as of 2011. Most people didn't even like it. The scope now might add the required attractiveness for the kit.
And considering the roles that I have taken when playing with the breacher lately, a suppressor makes quite a lot of sense actually. Going behind enemy lines, hunting FOBs, ambushing, arresting people, blowing up caches, climbing up buildings - It fits the concept of the kit.
Nate(GER) wrote:I really don't get the problem here. Are you just butthurt because 'Murica doesn't get equally cool tools?
It's one kit. It adds diversity, fun, more interesting gameplay without being overpowered. Breacher has been my main kit in my clan as of 2011. Most people didn't even like it. The scope now might add the required attractiveness for the kit.
And considering the roles that I have taken when playing with the breacher lately, a suppressor makes quite a lot of sense actually. Going behind enemy lines, hunting FOBs, ambushing, arresting people, blowing up caches, climbing up buildings - It fits the concept of the kit.
Breacher is supposed to be with a squad by providing rope, shoot open doors...etc. so squad can reach places.
If Breacher goes behind enemy line there would be a squad with him. And when he is with a squad of people who DO NOT have suppressors, one suppressor isn't useful.
Also need to increase bullet drop/decrease bullet speed.
Otherwise it's just another retarded rambo who attempts to take advantage of fairness of multiplayer game(relatively equal number of players each side) by trying his luck at solo fob/cache hunting.
I just quote 0nil here:
players that share the same passion for an alternative gaming styles focused on covert operations such as reconnaissance, ambush, sabotage, disruptive tactics and, on occasion, logistics are unfortunately often seen by the community as lonewolfs, following a selfish gaming style that does not help the team in any way. It is common to find "recon" squads created by snipers focused only on killing as much as possible. Those give a bad reputation to the proper recon squads.
A proper recon squad supports its team by reducing enemy reinforcements and armor, disrupting enemy tactics and logistics, sabotaging enemy assets and providing vital intel. This can give a big advantage to a team when done properly but there are only very few players in PR that are truly specialized in these roles and those actually rarely use a sniper rifle for the job.
Here are two videos. Forgotten Honor Campaign and New Era Warfare weekly event.
If Breacher goes behind enemy line there would be a squad with him. And when he is with a squad of people who DO NOT have suppressors, one suppressor isn't useful.
This even promotes teamwork. If you take on a FOB, the guy with the suppressor can cover and the guy with the loud gun (Combat Engineer for example) can move in and take down stuff. Most of the time, you try to avoid a fight and not try to be seen anyways.
I can however see your reasoning. People taking stuff because "it's cool" and not because it's useful are a pain in the ***. I can't stand those guys who keep asking every two seconds if they can take "this kit because well, we totally need it!". So I don't care if my gun has a suppressor or not, I can adapt. But then let's just get rid of sniper rifles aswell. 90% of the time it's a complete waste since the people who actually know how to use it are a very small minority that is dominated by the 1337 R3C0n Forces Delta Force SpecOps-wannabe-Snipers that don't help their team at all.
Nate(GER) wrote:Okay I fear this will go OT, but let's go:
I just quote 0nil here:
players that share the same passion for an alternative gaming styles focused on covert operations such as reconnaissance, ambush, sabotage, disruptive tactics and, on occasion, logistics are unfortunately often seen by the community as lonewolfs, following a selfish gaming style that does not help the team in any way. It is common to find "recon" squads created by snipers focused only on killing as much as possible. Those give a bad reputation to the proper recon squads.
A proper recon squad supports its team by reducing enemy reinforcements and armor, disrupting enemy tactics and logistics, sabotaging enemy assets and providing vital intel. This can give a big advantage to a team when done properly but there are only very few players in PR that are truly specialized in these roles and those actually rarely use a sniper rifle for the job.
Here are two videos. Forgotten Honor Campaign and New Era Warfare weekly event.
This even promotes teamwork. If you take on a FOB, the guy with the suppressor can cover and the guy with the loud gun (Combat Engineer for example) can move in and take down stuff. Most of the time, you try to avoid a fight and not try to be seen anyways.
I can however see your reasoning. People taking stuff because "it's cool" and not because it's useful are a pain in the ***. I can't stand those guys who keep asking every two seconds if they can take "this kit because well, we totally need it!". So I don't care if my gun has a suppressor or not, I can adapt. But then let's just get rid of sniper rifles aswell. 90% of the time it's a complete waste since the people who actually know how to use it are a very small minority that is dominated by the 1337 R3C0n Forces Delta Force SpecOps-wannabe-Snipers that don't help their team at all.
I know how suppressors can work irl.
But in PR you can speak while down/dead. unless this will be fixed.
Only way to stay unnoticed by enemy is to not be spotted and never fire.
A "recon" squad does not need any more than a pair of binos, maybe a gltd.
Stealth isn't a specialforces thing, it's part of fieldcraft any soldier worth his salt knows. The suppressor helps IRL but it's mostly pointless in PR as well as being too "special".
CE is a very limited kit.
Normally it's breacher who will be dropping c4 stick with squad covering, which makes suppressor pointless again.
Overall, breacher kit just has too much.
Most spawnable kit have very few special things and plenty of downsides. Breacher currently has too much gear for one kit that's supposed to be suppprting the squad.
On top of scoped rifle, grenades,shotgun, hook, and c4...dutch breacher even has suppressor? Clearly dutch bias lol.
If we don't remove something like grenade, we can remove the patch so breacher needs a squad with medic.
Last edited by ComradeHX on 2014-06-02 22:38, edited 3 times in total.
Please re-read the mission statement and watch the videos. We clearly use different terms when it comes to recon. I'd also argue that a good headset is more effective than binoculars
CE is a very limited kit.
Normally it's breacher who will be dropping c4 stick with squad covering, which makes suppressor pointless again.
Believe it or not, most FOBs in good matches are not taken down by your regular squad.
Combat Engineer, Medic, Breacher, Officer is what makes a good squad to operate behind enemy lines.
But nevermind, this has nothing to do with the suppressor anymore, sorry for going OT. I hope you can understand my point. Somehow I had the feeling you didn't. (I did not try to describe how suppressor works IRL )
/Edit: I see you edited your post. I was addressing your initial writing, keep in mind
Breacher has no smoke grenades, which is fucking annoying quite often. It's fine imo. I don't see many people going all lonewolf with it.
No Nate, I'm not even American. My country doesn't have a faction. I also play a lot of non-standard ways and utilise a lot of unconventional tactics. But none of this implies this kit should exist. Consider the context of the SF kit in PR, when it was removed, why it was removed and what kit replaced it. Why are we playing this game again.
And yes. The setting is important for immersion. You have a point. I merely wanted to point out that from a gameplay perspective, it does not make a huge difference.
I apologise, I was ambiguous, though thanks for fixing my grammar. What I actually meant was that the "Should SF be in the game?" game was played out five years ago in PR, and the resounding answer was that PR isn't about modelling the exceptions to the rule, it's about modelling the rule for bog standard armies with bog standard in service kit. The rule stood up for every faction, the game was purged of the SF class and the Breacher kit was created to fulfil the functions of the SF kit that were desirable for squads to have and which exist in a bog standard infantry battalion either in assaultmen, assault pioneers or whatever the national equivalent.
In this context, Dutch breachers being pseudo SF totally but not really wink wink, is a step backwards to 0.7. In the context of the Dutch faction, the existence of this kit is even stranger and more concerning, because the faction is replete with unrealistic throwbacks that seem to have been OK'd because they're "cool", like the F35 which is non-operational and for all intents and purposes not in service, throwing us back to vBF2. Or there's the .50BMG sniper in their design docs - a very glaring exception to a PR rule about what sniper rifles are in game after the fiascos the game has had with .50 snipers in the past.
What I'm getting at is that this kit is an exception to a well established rule, and in general the faction has so many exceptions to well established PR rules that the faction itself is basically a big exception to a rule in itself.
I actually side with Truism here, i don't like the silencer on the dutch kit and ever since the faction came out i feel it is a little over-powered on its maps. Like air superiority against Russia (jets that aren't even purchased. Are you sure the Dutch will even buy the f-35 those types of military deals often break, or the hardware purchased is so different than the planed) , sure asymmetrical balance but it's how it feels to me - Dutch bias...
I don't see a direct correlation between Special Forces and suppressors. afaik such attachments can be very useful in almost any setting, especially in one including close quarters roles such as the breacher.
that being said, if it isn't commonplace in the Dutch army, the answer is blatantly obvious: it should be patched out. You're setting precedent here, and if this is how you think the game should be set up, we may as well change the name to Project Gameplay and just remove all the team oriented stuff altogether and throw in our choice palette of special snowflake guns.
I believe someone mentioned moving the suppressed stuff over to the spotter kit. That seems a lot more realistic (not to mention practical) for the spotter to have the suppressor option.
imo including this kind of content is not fair to the other comfacs who actually follow the rules.
could find a nice place within the dutch spotter kit? It would kinda make sense, too, with sniper teams or the guys who operate as forward observers being rather elite infantry.
