Teamwork in Insurgency

[waldov]

Insurgency is without question PR's most unique single feature and has gone through an uncountable number of changes with almost every single update since its implementation. Despite all the changes that have been made overtime one thing has remained almost completely the same; the total lack of teamwork in Insurgent factions, especially the Iraqi insurgent faction. There are a number of reasons for this which I will break down below.

• No rally points (Iraqi insurgents)
  This is a rather odd decision that makes teamwork in the already worse off Iraqi insurgent faction just that much more difficult. Rally points are one of PR's best teamwork elements and denying the Iraqi insurgents the ability to form up once they've strayed away from their hideouts and lost men (two things that are totally inevitable) is a massive blow to the cohesion and teamwork ability of the faction.
• No selectable kits (Iraqi insurgents)
  As an insurgent squad leader you need to have RPG's and machine guns to stand a fighting chance against the asset heavy BLUFOR, unfourtuantly getting these weapons becomes a case of madly rushing for them at main base or at the caches. Again this hampers teamwork for Insurgents massively. Pre-deployment organization becomes very unclear and bringing heavy weapons into the fight eventually becomes a random uncertainty that makes planning and tactic's "out in the field" extremely troublesome at best.
• High casualties
  Disproportionate casualties is just something that is going to happen when you fight guys with scopes and heavy assets. Nonetheless this makes teamwork very difficult in the long term because as you start losing your men throughout the course of battle your squad becomes broken and un-cohesive (further multiplied by lack of rally points). This is something I don't think will change or should change for that matter but it's still something worth pointing out.
• Wrong mentality
  This is something less to do with the game and more to do with the community that plays it. When people jump on the insurgent team they're basically in for the free ride, they're usually less concerned with forming team working squads or following any type of plan beyond getting from point A to B. Obviously this is something the community needs to get past itself.
• Nonexistent assets
  Again this is something more to do with community other then the game itself, more specifically the servers themselves. Jump on any conventional faction and you have Trans squads, APC squads etc. Insurgents on the other hand have no organization of assets and as with their good guns it becomes a mad dash situation instead of anything resembling teamwork. This has two negative effects on the insurgents, firstly instead of important assets going to those most sutible to use them they're free pickings for whoever just happens to be around at the right time and secondly the people using them don't have the sense that they are using a valuable team asset as you would if you were part of a dedicated squad.
• Difficulty acquiring kits
  This problem plauges all the insurgent factions, especially the Iraqi insurgents by making it impossible to get secondary kits (sniper, HAT, MG, AA etc,) without spawning at main or on the caches (or in the case of Iraqi insurgents simple LAT and AR kits). This is just another aspect that makes the supposedly flexible insurgents very inflexible in game. Personally I think they should be able to request kits from hideouts or have some equivalent to supply boxes.
• Few emplacements
  The insurgent commander has very few choices as far as static emplacements go especially compared to his BLUFOR opponents, I won't make this a suggestion post about Insurgent emplacement 's but anything other then just SPG's and mortars would sure help a lot. Also one of the main limitations I've found as an insurgent commander in PR is the lack of de-elevation offered by the SPG, making its use from elevated positions impossible. I understand this is realistic but in real life it would probably just have bricks placed below the two stands at the back or be faced slightly downwards on a slope instead of just deciding to keep the SPG strictly horizontal.

Hopefully one day teamwork will become a more active element as an Insurgent in PR but personally I think it will take changes from both community and the gameplay itself.

[Mineral]

5 of these points only apply to the iraqi insurgents and taliban, as all other factions have assets,logistics,crates,emplacements,kit selection(hamas, syrian rebels, militia).

It's 100% a players mentality to not play as a team. I've seen brilliant insurgent rounds with proper teamwork.

[waldov]

5 of these points only apply to the iraqi insurgents and taliban, as all other factions have assets,logistics,crates,emplacements,kit selection(hamas, syrian rebels, militia).

It's 100% a players mentality to not play as a team. I've seen brilliant insurgent rounds with proper teamwork.

These do mostly apply to MEC insurgents but African militia and Hamas both lack logistics, emplacements and assets as well, in other word's the majority of insurgency factions.

Also I strongly agree, I think player mentality is vital but there is no denying the importance of gameplay, if you applied the same limitations the Iraqi Insurgent faction faces upon the BLUFOR teams do you really think they'd have as much teamwork as they do now? Of course not, but that wouldn't just be a case of player mentality that is also an effect of gameplay itself.

[X-Alt]

Protips straight from my great mentor Devilskills. Using these methods, BLUFOR will never get enough Intel points and you are 99% guaranteed to win the game. I admit, this probably ain't gonna happen on a public server, but an actual teamwork event with these principles might work out just fine.

STAY AWAY FROM THE CACHE
Simply put, make a Squad of only sappers to get in the cache in the 5 minutes before it gets known, IED the shit out of it and when they come, BOOM MUFFUCA, rinse n repeat. Kick\Warn anyone not in that squad thats near the cache in a 2 keypad radius and\or not in a building (except civis).

BE A REAL INSURGENT
IRL, you almost never see an armed insurgent standing right in front of well-trained soldiers soldiers and ramboing his AK while being shot up endlessly. Instead, scatter around the map and hide in the plethora of buildings, and get ready to ambush kill-hungry BLUFORmen. Also, have a Gary\Bombcar hiding when they call for backup. BLUFOR will never get enough wintel points when you use this method.

SCATTER ALL YOUR CIVIS
Have one civi in your squad, he will walk around the map and lead the BLUFORmen to an ambush, now with the 1.2 patch, these methods are essential for the civilian to actually survive and be more than a huge gain in intel points for BLUFORmen.

[ComradeHX]

INS need to increase maximum of hideout on each map.

[Pronck]

Distance required between them should be overhauled as well then.

[tankninja1]

All these points are the definition of insurgency. Insurgency's are always asymmetrical in nature, otherwise they would just be a regular armies. If the Iraqi Insurgents could request kits and had jets, helicopters, tank, and APCs then they would be MEC but without camo wouldn't they. (THE WRONG MENTALITY POINT IS EXEMPT FROM THIS RESPONSE).

It helps if the insurgents have good SLs/Commander to lead the team.

[ComradeHX]

All these points are the definition of insurgency. Insurgency's are always asymmetrical in nature, otherwise they would just be a regular armies. If the Iraqi Insurgents could request kits and had jets, helicopters, tank, and APCs then they would be MEC but without camo wouldn't they. (THE WRONG MENTALITY POINT IS EXEMPT FROM THIS RESPONSE).

It helps if the insurgents have good SLs/Commander to lead the team.

There was nothing about assets.

INS should have weaker assets.

But they need a lot more RPGs.
Because RPGs are cheap.

Nothing wrong with HAT and sniper kit being spawned in main only; but RPG-7 kit should be a lot more common(at least one each squad, plus the pickup kits on cache).

[Human_001]

I am strictly against restructuring INS faction 'Order' to be Militia/Conventioal style. If this is done, INS will be nothing more than

'A Conventional force with MOST inferior assets'.

Because Iraqi INS faction does not have any Armor or Air or everything else, its 'never be chained to chain of command' style of movement is the asset itself.

All the problem points you brought up, No rally points, High casualties, Wrong mentality, Nonexistent assets, has to do with player problem.

As we can see already, INS faction needs and is for more experienced gamer.

Protips straight from my great mentor Devilskills. Using these methods, BLUFOR will never get enough Intel points and you are 99% guaranteed to win the game. I admit, this probably ain't gonna happen on a public server, but an actual teamwork event with these principles might work out just fine.

STAY AWAY FROM THE CACHE
Simply put, make a Squad of only sappers to get in the cache in the 5 minutes before it gets known, IED the shit out of it and when they come, BOOM MUFFUCA, rinse n repeat. Kick\Warn anyone not in that squad thats near the cache in a 2 keypad radius and\or not in a building (except civis).

BE A REAL INSURGENT
IRL, you almost never see an armed insurgent standing right in front of well-trained soldiers soldiers and ramboing his AK while being shot up endlessly. Instead, scatter around the map and hide in the plethora of buildings, and get ready to ambush kill-hungry BLUFORmen. Also, have a Gary\Bombcar hiding when they call for backup. BLUFOR will never get enough wintel points when you use this method.

SCATTER ALL YOUR CIVIS
Have one civi in your squad, he will walk around the map and lead the BLUFORmen to an ambush, now with the 1.2 patch, these methods are essential for the civilian to actually survive and be more than a huge gain in intel points for BLUFORmen.

As guidance above, people have to learn tactic first.

-----------------------------

SPG:

I do agree on SPG issue with not having any negative angle.

-----------------------------

Difficulty acquiring kits:

I have brought this up before (never been answered) and I want to ask again.

What happened to all the pickup kits that disappeared with the 1 cache only system?

Iraqi INS used to have all the pickup at main + pickup at cache 1 + pickup at cache 2.

Now with Cache 2 gone, there is - 2 RPG, 1 PKM, and 1 RPK. Has this been introduced to main base or has total number of these weapon for Conventional reduced to match INS?

[obpmgmua]

No amount of tactics can compensate for the lack of equipment and assets.

Do you know what happened to me today on Basrah? I got sniped by a tank's machine gun from atleast 500m. Then I took an AT4 to the face from the VCP. It flew 300m into my window.

It's things like this that frustrate me, I have no way to fight back against such overwhelming force as an insurgent. No amount of tactics will allow me to kill a tank. Garys and Bomb cars rarely succeed. Lack of scoped rifles makes it nigh impossible for me to engage blufor on equal footing.

It's 100% a players mentality to not play as a team. I've seen brilliant insurgent rounds with proper teamwork.

You can't blame the players for playing the game they way it was designed.

Teamwork in Insurgency fragments because of the pickup kits. Even the most experienced players act like total noobs when it comes to pickup kits. Rushing and TKing for the RPG or PKM.

[Human_001]

No amount of tactics can compensate for the lack of equipment and assets.

Do you know what happened to me today on Basrah? I got sniped by a tank's machine gun from atleast 500m. Then I took an AT4 to the face from the VCP. It flew 300m into my window.

It's things like this that frustrate me, I have no way to fight back against such overwhelming force as an insurgent. No amount of tactics will allow me to kill a tank. Garys and Bomb cars rarely succeed. Lack of scoped rifles makes it nigh impossible for me to engage blufor on equal footing.


You can't blame the players for playing the game they way it was designed.

Teamwork in Insurgency fragments because of the pickup kits. Even the most experienced players act like total noobs when it comes to pickup kits. Rushing and TKing for the RPG or PKM.

I have to disagree on that.

I thought Basrah visibility was around 400m.

What a lucky shot from AT4 (LAT). It has no optic or guidance, which makes them same as RPG7 exept it has sight increment by 50 or 100m.

Thats the part I disagree with I guess. I believe the fun is in the part that you can fight back against such an overwhelming difference between assets using tactic. Tactic will allow you to take out a tank. Tactic being well placed multiple RPG in a ditch, SPG in position where you can fall back from, or IED and a little patience.

Sure Gary will rarely succeed. But I think Gary is a ridiculous idea to begin with. Ramming a Armor that can shoot as far as it can see sitting in middle of an open field with a slow moving dump truck? Where does that come from? I think bomb car in PR comes from the general idea of bomb car, a common vehicle such as dump truck or a car that can be anywhere innocently that has hidden bomb on it. Which does not work in PR environment without civi and traffic filling the map.

Ofcourse you can't engage all scoped foe with non scope on equal footing. I think even irl there is distance where you can use iron sight effectively, then beyond that where you need an optic or optic will have clear advantage. Otherwise what is the reason why people invent scopes and use them?

So here comes the Tactic again. Anyone who watched war movie or watched war related TV show knows, if opposing side firearm can reach further than yours can, you maneuver closer using terrain to the point where yours can reach.

And binoculars added to almost all of the kits, you can maneuver while having same visibility as opponent does.

[Raklodder]

The Insurgent Team have too few building options, not to mention mortars being removed from 1KM maps.

[ComradeHX]

I have to disagree on that.

I thought Basrah visibility was around 400m.

What a lucky shot from AT4 (LAT). It has no optic or guidance, which makes them same as RPG7 exept it has sight increment by 50 or 100m.

You don't understand.

AT-4 is like the definition of BluFor bias.
(much more damaging than RPG-26/7 and more accurate/faster/less drop)

So here comes the Tactic again. Anyone who watched war movie or watched war related TV show knows, if opposing side firearm can reach further than yours can, you maneuver closer using terrain to the point where yours can reach.

And binoculars added to almost all of the kits, you can maneuver while having same visibility as opponent does.

Except for the fact that most of the map is either flat(Al Basrah) or...mostly flat(Fallujah...etc.). With most building being impossible to enter(and getting on top = get shot by CAS).
And if you stay in enterable buildings; you get spammed HE rounds at from APC...

That's why militia has some of best INS maps; because it's usually either heavily wooded(limits scope and thermals' effectiveness and lets HAT hide in bushes instead of trying to take a shot at tank from 200m which is almost impossible practically unless tank is stopped) or has lots of rooms in cache building.

Aside from Sbeneh which is great(also because of the many assets available for INS).

IRL you can use ironsights to much further range than you can in-game; because you don't see people as a few pixels at 100m.

[Human_001]

AT4:
I didn't know that.
If that is the case, I hope atleast round speed will be adjusted to the real value.

Terrain:
Yes I was aware of that and I am one of those who constantly complain about the Terrain realisticness. So when map like Burning Sands and Khashmiyah came out with Iraqi INS I was VERY exited, only to find out no server permits them to be played.

But even with Basrah, you can maneuver avoiding MG and APC if you are careful enough and patient enough, given the opponent on Blufor side is not a pro level player (anything will be too hard to do in any faction if opposing player is good). Absolutely check the horizon for infantry, listen for Armor and sprint from ever-so-rare ditch to ditch.

Buildings:
And yes I also understand the limitation with buildings too. Suggested giving rope to all class for a long time tho, to utilize the non-enterable buildings balcony and roof, giving longer rope aim time to avoid rope spamming to avoid walls etc etc... But just because terrain isn't perfect and buildings are not enterable does not make tactic impossible. It can't be perfect. Maybe adopting to game's imperfection itself is as noble as adopting and winning with inferior weapon.

As with the APC HE spam, I believe that is very realistic.

Iron sight:
Right, but when you compare the PR 0-max effective distance for ironsight and for optics, wouldn't the ratio between them be more or less be representation of the limit IRL?

In another words,

PR: --max iron= 150m IRL: --max iron= 300m

PR: max optics= 300m IRL: max optics= 600m


I thought I said similar in some different thread. I always thought that distance icon in PR feels like half of what it seems. To me distance and accuracy makes more sense if you just multiply all said distance by 2. That would kind of explain how I can't effectively use ironsight beyond 150m and SVD not hitting beyond 300m.

Which brings up one other random question I had. Is SVD accuracy setting same for INS faction and Russian faction?

[Psyrus]

AT4:
I didn't know that.
If that is the case, I hope atleast round speed will be adjusted to the real value.

I'm pretty sure they are close to their real values [here are the only real differences between the two]:

ObjectTemplate.projectileTemplate uslat_at4_projectile
ObjectTemplate.keepProjectiles 15
ObjectTemplate.velocity 290
ObjectTemplate.itemIndex 4
ObjectTemplate.delayToUse 5.4
======================
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierDeviationComp
ObjectTemplate.deviation.minDev 1
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setTurnDev 5 0.4 0.4 0.16
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setSpeedDev 5 0.04444 0.04444 0.04499
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setMiscDev 20 20 0.15
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModStand 5
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModCrouch 3.75
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModLie 7
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModZoom 0.1
======================
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionRadius 12
ObjectTemplate.mass 0.19

ObjectTemplate.projectileTemplate rpg_rocket
ObjectTemplate.keepProjectiles 15
ObjectTemplate.velocity 261
ObjectTemplate.itemIndex 4
ObjectTemplate.delayToUse 8.5
======================
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierDeviationComp
ObjectTemplate.deviation.minDev 1
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setTurnDev 5 0.4 0.4 0.16
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setSpeedDev 5 0.04444 0.04444 0.04499
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setMiscDev 20 20 0.15
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModStand 5
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModCrouch 4
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModLie 7
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModZoom 0.13
======================
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionRadius 11
ObjectTemplate.mass 0.205

AT4 Velocity: 290m/s
RPG7 Velocity: Starts at 115, can increase up to 294 during the second stage

The RPG's one was obviously averaged because I'm pretty sure BF2 can't do a 2-stage burn

[StandardSmurf]

It seems like a lot of you just like AAS more and want INS to conform to your style of play. I personally like INS rounds that are old school and kinda fun on the INS side. It doesn't have to always be squads and tactics and orders and blah blah blah. The INS side on Al Basrah for example, that is fun. It is a challenge yeah and that is why it is fun. You aren't losing any tickets if you die, which is why I think you see much less teamwork, but it is also fun that way. INS that is being morphed into AAS or where the INS team gets assets like on Khamisiyah, to me is no fun. It's the quirky nature of the INS team that provides everyone a good time and a few laughs. You guys get all uptight about how OP the blufor team is and how your RPG isn't as good as a LAT and on and on and on. Relax, it's just a game and you are supposed to be getting your butts kicked if you are INS. Use tactics and play smart, you don't need to take 7 hostages with you while you go and do this. I've been racking up kills on INS maps for years its easy even with the cheap assortment of weapons the INS side gets and it's more FUN that way. One last thing ... please oh please bring back the pipebombs that you can stick on walls. - rant complete.

[waldov]

Lots of you guys clearly misread my post, I'm not at all trying to down play the importance of tactics and mentality in INS at all, in an ideal world most players in PR would simply just conform to both the team-play and the tactics required without the need for any changes whatsoever. Unfortunately this is not a perfect world and as nearly any round of INS will show you most players do not make an effort to work as a team, at least to anywhere near the standards you will notice playing as a conventional faction. Also before you try say otherwise the lack of teamwork is not actually realistic, most regular insurgents are usually highly disciplined even if their actual combat skills are lacking. Most irregulars come from tribal, theocratic and/or dictatorial nations and have usually lived in a very hierarchic system making them more then used to the concept of following orders and following rank.

Obviously unconventional factions will always have a certain looseness surrounding them which can't be stopped, but even to those who try to make an effort to implement teamwork many difficulties arise; hence why I created this thread. I simply think many of the things restricting the ability for unconventional factions to work as a team are unnecessary and/or unrealistic and if they could be fixed teamwork would be far more easier to carry out and inevitably become far more common. I don't think they need more assets, I don't think they need scopes and I didn't say any of that I just simply think they should have an improved ability to function as a team as is the goal of playing PR and as all other factions have the pleasure of doing.

[Death!]

Sure Gary will rarely succeed. But I think Gary is a ridiculous idea to begin with. Ramming a Armor that can shoot as far as it can see sitting in middle of an open field with a slow moving dump truck? Where does that come from? I think bomb car in PR comes from the general idea of bomb car, a common vehicle such as dump truck or a car that can be anywhere innocently that has hidden bomb on it. Which does not work in PR environment without civi and traffic filling the map.

Bomb cars can easily take down a tank if you get good tactics as they look like ordinary transport cars.

If your squad come from 3 different directions with one real bomb car and two more ordinary transport, you have 3 times more chances of actually hitting the armor. Same for the gary on some maps that you can have fake ones, but it is harder because it is slower, as you said.

Even the most experienced players act like total noobs when it comes to pickup kits. Rushing and TKing for the RPG or PKM.

That is true and that is why I dislike insurgency.

[Pronck]

It is everyone pointing at each other. So unless servers start acting against the players going beserk despite them being regulars, there will never be a change.

[HunterMed]

Ins should have RPs too.

The special kits should be requestable from caches or hideouts. The kits are so rare anyway, so I dont see a big balance issue. Like sniper, arty IED,...

The mentality is different true when playing Ins. I think this will not change ever, because deaths do not matter. People play more relaxed, even if they have to walk miles again (alone).
With RPs this might even happen more often, because you can spawn closer to the action most likely.

Overall I think it is more down to the players to change Ins gameplay and the assets are fine.

I just wished the Taleban had IEDs too. IEDs is the most fun when playing as insurgent. Even if it sometimes means waiting, it is thrilling to see a squad walking on your mortar IED, or approaching, changing course, and then finally they DO walk over it