Insurgency: Arresting

[LiamBai]

I think it might be a cool idea to give a small number of insurgency kits the ability to arrest blufor players. This could give blufor negative intel and a longer spawntime.
In real life, capturing blufor soldiers usually has a much more profound impact than simply killing them.

This would be a great assets to the insurgents, particularly since civilians have been heavily nerfed.

[IWI-GALIL.556FA]

I agree. What a total embarrassment it would be to be arrested as Blufor. I guess no different then getting knifed. But if a penalty was assessed, it would be awesome.

[Ragnarok1775]

Great minds think alike, I mentioned something like this earlier.

But hey, think of the implications of this. It would keep squads together, you really won't be able to capture someone if he's got 5-7 guys around him shooting you. But if one guy gets lost or somehow wanders off, well, he stands a good chance of getting captured. Especially when you just totally desert your post, it has significant implications in the real world, like a guy getting traded for five top OPFOR commanders.

Maybe give restraints to the cell-leader kit only. As for penalties, maybe not negative intel if you're going for realism (only one prisoner in GWOT actually turned traitor, I won't mention Bergdahl by name). But longer spawn time and a ticket penalty would be very fitting.

Along with this, it would be pretty cool if the bad guys could pick up BLUFOR kits. I mentioned earlier that the Taliban did in fact launch an attack wearing ACUs in real life. I know it doesn't change the whole uniform, but it does change some of the field gear (which they do try to take off our dead, along with our weapons). BLUFOR in real life are generally forbidden to take enemy weapons for personal use (they're supposed to be destroyed, dunno how often that really happens though).

[Brainlaag]

Along with this, it would be pretty cool if the bad guys could pick up BLUFOR kits. I mentioned earlier that the Taliban did in fact launch an attack wearing ACUs in real life. I know it doesn't change the whole uniform, but it does change some of the field gear (which they do try to take off our dead, along with our weapons). BLUFOR in real life are generally forbidden to take enemy weapons for personal use (they're supposed to be destroyed, dunno how often that really happens though).

In earlier versions kits were usable by both factions alike, this got changed because you had insurgents using specialized kits with extreme efficiency (HAT and LAT kits, snipers, etc. due to the hardcoded nature of the game to simulate a penalty because of lack of training) and some exploits (engi and spec ops for C4 vehicles).

If I'm not mistaken, I've seen the suggestion of "arresting" Blufor quite a few times already and IIRC it got discarded every time.

[camo]

this sounds like a great idea, anything to make a squad work together and to discourage lone wolfing is good.

[Vicious302]

just add some brass knuckles to the punch animation and presto, great idea. maybe a taser for long range?

[Kovanaama]

I like this idea a lot!

[StevePl4y5]

Maybe insurgents could get intel on BLUFOR fobs, lolz. (Battlefield Hardline much)

[Ragnarok1775]

In earlier versions kits were usable by both factions alike, this got changed because you had insurgents using specialized kits with extreme efficiency (HAT and LAT kits, snipers, etc. due to the hardcoded nature of the game to simulate a penalty because of lack of training) and some exploits (engi and spec ops for C4 vehicles).

If I'm not mistaken, I've seen the suggestion of "arresting" Blufor quite a few times already and IIRC it got discarded every time.

I remember back when you could use enemy kits, it caused a lot of friendly fire incidents because some guy who thought he was super-elite was wearing a headbag.

Unfortunately, and we are getting a little political here, hadjis do know how to use a lot of US weapons. The Taliban didn't exist back then, but the US and China together trained the "United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan", AKA "Northern Alliance" to fight against the Soviets (after the Sino-Soviet split). In the early 90s the Taliban rose up, and many Northern Alliance members (who are equally as brutal as the Taliban) broke off as well. The Northern Alliance did help fight the Taliban though (with further training and equipping by the west).

They likely can't use advanced weapon systems like the Javelins, but they do know how to use Stinger missiles and small arms. Perhaps if there was a way to prevent them from using HAT kits, officer kits, and a couple others?

I don't see why anyone would shoot down the idea of hadji taking prisoners. It's what they do in the real world, it would give them an advantage to make up for all their other shortcomings, it discourages "lone wolf" players, and it promotes long-range engagements in the more open maps (Iraq may have been a 100m war, but Afghanistan is an 800m war). Give the restraints to just ONE OPFOR kit, maybe the leader or one that isn't really used often to keep it from going overboard...

[Brainlaag]

I remember back when you could use enemy kits, it caused a lot of friendly fire incidents because some guy who thought he was super-elite was wearing a headbag.

Unfortunately, and we are getting a little political here, hadjis do know how to use a lot of US weapons. The Taliban didn't exist back then, but the US and China together trained the "United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan", AKA "Northern Alliance" to fight against the Soviets (after the Sino-Soviet split). In the early 90s the Taliban rose up, and many Northern Alliance members (who are equally as brutal as the Taliban) broke off as well. The Northern Alliance did help fight the Taliban though (with further training and equipping by the west).

They likely can't use advanced weapon systems like the Javelins, but they do know how to use Stinger missiles and small arms. Perhaps if there was a way to prevent them from using HAT kits, officer kits, and a couple others?

There was also a period during which only limited kits were restricted for us by the Opfor forces (all kits with "rifleman" in the name, with the exception of the Automatic Rifleman, were free to use indefinitely). However it got changed prior to 1.0, most likely to prepare the community for the 100p, lack of tags and as such, as you already said, even further friendly-fire incidents. I don't necessarily agree with it but there might be more to it than the impression might reveal. I still use AR/MG kits, HATs and LATs when playing Opfor, since, while being on the defensive, they are superior to any sort of equipment my own faction has to offer. Despite the 20s timer on a black screen, I can take out multiple enemies and then simply swap kits, rinse and repeat. It might hamper the player's ability to make use of hostile kits but does not prevent it and as such I consider the general feature somewhat obsolete.

The biggest problem are the kit geometries. A pick-up kit will make you wear a helmet, pouches and even glasses, which do cause quite some trouble over long range engagements. Not that I consider that necessarily bad, forcing people to be more aware of their surroundings and put the god-view map to better use is always welcome in my book but DEVs have always been a bit tough to talk to in regards of making the game "less noob-friendly".

[Ragnarok1775]

There was also a period during which only limited kits were restricted for us by the Opfor forces (all kits with "rifleman" in the name, with the exception of the Automatic Rifleman, were free to use indefinitely). However it got changed prior to 1.0, most likely to prepare the community for the 100p, lack of tags and as such, as you already said, even further friendly-fire incidents. I don't necessarily agree with it but there might be more to it than the impression might reveal. I still use AR/MG kits, HATs and LATs when playing Opfor, since, while being on the defensive, they are superior to any sort of equipment my own faction has to offer. Despite the 20s timer on a black screen, I can take out multiple enemies and then simply swap kits, rinse and repeat. It might hamper the player's ability to make use of hostile kits but does not prevent it and as such I consider the general feature somewhat obsolete.

The biggest problem are the kit geometries. A pick-up kit will make you wear a helmet, pouches and even glasses, which do cause quite some trouble over long range engagements. Not that I consider that necessarily bad, forcing people to be more aware of their surroundings and put the god-view map to better use is always welcome in my book but DEVs have always been a bit tough to talk to in regards of making the game "less noob-friendly".

Well pretty much any kind of small arms are easy to operate. Breaking down and cleaning an M16A4 might not be within hadji's skill set, but he can certainly shoot one. With no tags and forcing people to keep together (and away from the enemy) by letting OPFOR capture, now you have the headgear/friendly fire issue which forces a bit better communication and planning. I think I said before, in Afghanistan, the Taliban have actually conducted attacks while wearing American uniforms (ACUs).

Here is one: Taliban fighters wore US Army uniforms in attack on Prince Harry's base - Telegraph

That makes binoculars even more useful, and can make the sniper/spotter teams even more important (improving the spotter kit was something discussed elsewhere on the forums). That kind of potential deception/confusion would give another advantage to the otherwise out-classed OPFOR.

But I don't want BLUFOR using OPFOR kits at all. That kind of stuff happened in Vietnam because of the original M16 defects, pre-M16A1 (and caused a lot of friendly fire casualties because of the distinctive sound of the AK-47). But aside from the rare emergency exception in the heat of battle, it's doesn't happen in the modern world that PR intends to represent.

Does anyone know how long the dropped-kit decay period is?

[Brainlaag]

Does anyone know how long the dropped-kit decay period is?

5 minutes.

[Beee8190]

I think this is quite interesting idea

and it doesn't need to be limited to intel points only but it could work in a way that it shortens INS team respawn time
( shorter spawns does counts when enemies are near the cache and reinforcements are needed )
or maybe better yet allow ins more spawns if they capture say, 5 blu? Like spawning on unknown cache except no cache will spawn there and acts like a predefined rally point. That could form some actual squad teamwork and I'd think both teams would at least attempt to capture each other = more teamwork between squads

I'm expanding on the idea by OP as I feel that there should be at least some interaction between blufor instead of just steam roll the shit out of them and shoot at whatever moves as I have hard time believing that the US Army or the Marines just storm the city like bunch of savages and level it out till nothing but ashes are left IRL, which really resembles the current gameplay.

Anyhow, for blufor side it could work in similar manner as it currently works with civilians but they could have the ability to arrest & capture every insurgents. Special kits could be used , like the breacher kit with shotgun since its rather limited kit but I feel due to the impressive accuracy and rate of fire, said breacher would have to get within 2 meters to arrest an insurgent otherwise it should simply count as an casualty and not intel / civilian asset for which they can gain intel but civilians could still stay as a traitor & bonus asset to blufor

The intel points would need some adjusting to reflect the fact that every insurgent could now be captured though and should not give away too many intel points

[Ragnarok1775]

I think this is quite interesting idea

and it doesn't need to be limited to intel points only but it could work in a way that it shortens INS team respawn time
( shorter spawns does counts when enemies are near the cache and reinforcements are needed )
or maybe better yet allow ins more spawns if they capture say, 5 blu? Like spawning on unknown cache except no cache will spawn there and acts like a predefined rally point. That could form some actual squad teamwork and I'd think both teams would at least attempt to capture each other = more teamwork between squads

I'm expanding on the idea by OP as I feel that there should be at least some interaction between blufor instead of just steam roll the shit out of them and shoot at whatever moves as I have hard time believing that the US Army or the Marines just storm the city like bunch of savages and level it out till nothing but ashes are left IRL, which really resembles the current gameplay.

Anyhow, for blufor side it could work in similar manner as it currently works with civilians but they could have the ability to arrest & capture every insurgents. Special kits could be used , like the breacher kit with shotgun since its rather limited kit but I feel due to the impressive accuracy and rate of fire, said breacher would have to get within 2 meters to arrest an insurgent otherwise it should simply count as an casualty and not intel / civilian asset for which they can gain intel but civilians could still stay as a traitor & bonus asset to blufor

The intel points would need some adjusting to reflect the fact that every insurgent could now be captured though and should not give away too many intel points

I think every time BLUFOR kills a civilian, it should decrease OPFOR spawn time. This kinda mirrors real life in that if you just go through a town and wipe them out, well, the bad guys will use that as propaganda to recruit a lot more.

When OPFOR captures BLUFOR, it should increase BLUFOR spawn time. When Americans are captured and tortured by the enemy, it's not good for morale or public opinion, which certainly affects recruiting.

When BLUFOR captures OPFOR, they should get intel points. Enhanced interrogation works, and even though you can't directly simulate that, you can still feel the effects in the form of intel. Doesn't matter who, if they're OPFOR then they should be worth something, regardless of kit. That guy we waterboarded at the CIA prison in Eastern Europe gave the intel about the doctor in Pakistan, who in turn gave us intel that led to the killing of Osama.

These are pretty distant and abstract concepts, but what happens in the field does affect people back home, and those people back home affect what happens in the field. Every battlefield action has a consequence.

As for guys just blitzkrieging into a town and killing everyone...is there somehow a way for OPFOR to disguise themselves as civilians??? Killing them wouldn't truly cause a penalty, but it might make BLUFOR think they would lose something...like maybe adding an unarmed slot to some of the OPFOR, especially if their bodies (geometry?) looks very similar?

[Cavazos]

This sounds like a great idea. It could be worth 4 tickets in total.

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[Arab]

I think every time BLUFOR kills a civilian, it should decrease OPFOR spawn time. This kinda mirrors real life in that if you just go through a town and wipe them out, well, the bad guys will use that as propaganda to recruit a lot more.

When OPFOR captures BLUFOR, it should increase BLUFOR spawn time. When Americans are captured and tortured by the enemy, it's not good for morale or public opinion, which certainly affects recruiting.

When BLUFOR captures OPFOR, they should get intel points. Enhanced interrogation works, and even though you can't directly simulate that, you can still feel the effects in the form of intel. Doesn't matter who, if they're OPFOR then they should be worth something, regardless of kit. That guy we waterboarded at the CIA prison in Eastern Europe gave the intel about the doctor in Pakistan, who in turn gave us intel that led to the killing of Osama.

These are pretty distant and abstract concepts, but what happens in the field does affect people back home, and those people back home affect what happens in the field. Every battlefield action has a consequence.

As for guys just blitzkrieging into a town and killing everyone...is there somehow a way for OPFOR to disguise themselves as civilians??? Killing them wouldn't truly cause a penalty, but it might make BLUFOR think they would lose something...like maybe adding an unarmed slot to some of the OPFOR, especially if their bodies (geometry?) looks very similar?

On all factions, there's the unarmed kit.
You have to join a squad though, hold 'T' and right-click, doing it slowly. (From memory)

Sometimes it doesn't work, but if you don't rush it, it should drop the unarmed kit, and this works the same way as collaborators with the same rules of engagements
(If the enemy sees you dropping your kit, you get arrested as insurgent etc)

It has a rock, and a phone along with unarmed combat (boxing)

It could be a good idea for the Insurgents shotgun to arrest US Soldiers as-well since they are a middle-short range weapon for those encounters. Would give the shotgun a purpose outside of opening gates and being powerful close-range, and balances it because the Bluforce's shotgun does it, so why not the Opfor?
Limit it to the breacher Opfor kit instead of the kit spawn screen.

[Brooklyn-Tech]

this would make the insurgent faction fun.

so its a no go, given the current state of things...

[tankninja1]

Not entirely realistic though. In all of the 13 years in Afghanistan only one American was ever captured. The was a couple captured in Iraq but that was early in the war when the insurgency wasn't really a thing yet.

Also this strikes me a too common sense and useable. Think of all the things BLUFOR should get but doesn't.

this would make the insurgent faction fun.
so its a no go, given the current state of things...

I love being insurgent, some maps I prefer it to BLUFOR (korengal/ramiel/black gold) The worst part about insurgency now is how long it takes to deploy mines, in .98 I build massive fields of mines and IEDs because it didn't take 30mins.

[Insanitypays]

I never really liked the idea of blufor being able to shotgun civilians with "rubber bullets"

Restraining civilians should be unnecessarily risky imo.

As for picking up kits, I think it would be great to be able to take enemy rifleman/officer kits so long as you could somehow preserve the kit geometry.
I doubt most insurgents would be able to pick up an AR15 platform and be able to use it effectively, but I still had fun being able to stand out once in a while with the opposing faction's guns.

[Squirrel[STF]]

Instead of handcuffs, or zipties, what about some kind of rope? Would be more logical.
Also, this might also stop people from wanting to "lone wolf" and stick with their squads!

+1 acorn