Opinion about resources,realism,teamwork in pr

[Spectrium]

Hello everyone. This is Spectrium.

I'm playing Pr for 2 years(from 0.981) After getting some basic experience about nearly all positions in game I wish to write something about realism, teamwork, strategies etc in pr. First of all I should say sorry about bad English. And also I have to say that these are my view so I am not forcing it as it's the truth. Please be gentle while discussing it

As I know, Project Reality is community modding, which means our opinions are really important for the future of Pr:Bf2 and even for PR2. But I noticed while we are suggesting our opinions about new stuff or the old We speaking about realism and teamwork. I am completely supporting the realistic side of project reality. But what i see about it is not bunch of shortcut buttons as arma series. It's more about mentally. For example limiting spawn points and bigger maps forced players to fulfill transportation role. That's the spirit of project reality. It's all about limited resources. Spawn time between assets, transportation requirement in maps, necessity of fobs near objectives... All of these forcing players to simulate a teamwork and strategy of an organisation like armies and force them to think about what should be their next movement. That's the spirit of project reality: Limited resources!

Probably you are asking why i'm talking about these shit. Reason is simple: project reality is becoming like big mapped arcade games. As I said before this is a community modding so our opinions are really important and If we don't give this game new blood as gameplay mechanics or good feedbacks. I guess the mod is just going to die slowly. For healthy ideas and feedbacks we should first know what's the project reality. This is why i tried to give definition by myself. Of course this is not truth, just my opinion...

This is so wide opinion. You may add everything fits on it. Human resources, time, ammunition, assets, field etc. Limited resources are pretend you from moving without thinking it's consequences. For exampe if you have unlimited ammunition on your AT probably you would fire it to everyone. Or If you have permanent flag spawnpoints but no fobs like Battlefield 2 itself, you would not think about transportation or worry about the most important resource: time... What I am thinking is

Some feedback examples about how important limited resources (after 1.0 patch):

-Spawnable Special Kits: This is breaking the importance of supplies and supply crates in strategies. It does not matter if you have any crate near your spawn. You may spawn with a kit that your squad needs. So who cares about supplies?

-Rally Points: I was opposite to rally points in 0.981. If you loose some men you should fall back wait for the fresh men arrives with trans. Rally point with limited time still okay. No problem, just forget about it. But permanent rally point with short reload time... That's what converted project reality into arcade... It does not matter if you find enemy fob. There are always enemy rally points 200 or 250m back.

Or some suggestion in understanding of limited resources:

-Rifleman ammo packs: Ammunition is essential resource. But having one pack of ammo after spawning with Rifleman is just killing the spirit I always speak about. I am not against the idea of carrying ammunition by infantry. I am against spawning with it. Just every rifleman spawns without a pack of ammunition and should need to reload it's pack again.(more slowly than normal) or I can carry it into next phase:


-Spawning with no kit and preparation: I accept this is radical suggestion but for common good. It does not matter if you are squad leader or member, tank crew, pilot etc. every man should spawn with no kit. And the crucial point: When you take a kit from a crate. It does not come with fully lock'n loaded. It should have no ammunition, no handgrenades or AT rocket ammunitions etc. You should reload it slowly. So it gonna prevent "spawn and go" arcades which you kill a man and he spawns and came in 1 min to kill you while you heal wounds, prepare etc.

All of these are just for example about the idea of limited resources and how should we convert game into more strategic and fit for teamwork. As I said before I am not using this thread as suggestion or feedback thread. If you liked the ideas or criticise feedbacks, you may open new threads in suited places.

I want to attract your attention into a new discussion: Gamemodes... I think AAS or Ins game mode is just old fashionated. It's still fun for some but most of veteran players just left the mod because of this. So as i said before our opinions are really important for the mod. We should think and suggest ideas about new "possible" mods which will not convert game into arcade.


That's all folks! And I really want to say thank you if you all of this post. I am sorry for bad English again.

Have a nice day

[IWI-GALIL.556FA]

I agree on a lot of your points. I've only been playing PR since .85 or so. It seemed the teamwork was getting better and better leading up to 1.0. Once released I played quite a bit. Don't get me wrong I had good times with some friends that still played, but we all agreed it was just too fast and too many people were coming away with ridiculous k/d's without much teamwork. I still find time to play once or twice a month, and have decent rounds every now and again, but it usually ends in an alt+f4 rage quit. I just can't keep up with these kids now a days lol.

[Cassius]

He makes good points, except for the spawn in and preparation. No.1 Fobs get overrun so you cant spawn in and kill unless somone is lonewolfing cus one guys cant overrun a fob.

No.2 800 tickets are supposed to simulate like 400 deplyoed men whom all came into combat armed and very prepared so we shouldnt simulate a guy spawning in gearing up for battle. Other than that he makes good points.

Also IWI Gali the reason "back in the day" teamplay was quite a bit better is that many people came to BF2 when the multiplayer code of Operation flashpoint and Arma was not that good, hoping that BF2 would be similiar and when PR came out there were quite a lot people hungry for exactly that kind of mod and willing to make it work. Now we have people coming from BF3/4 expecting something similiar to 3 4. Also Veterans of the war on terror digging the mod helped quite a bit too. And the technology of the underlying game wasnt 10 years old.

Eventually a game comes out that advertises itself as a tactical military sim with decent netcode and well thought out multiplayer that will attract the right crowd.

[matty1053]

You have some great points. But I think PRBF2 is at it's limit on how it can be strategic.
If PR was strategic, to it's MAX.... rounds would be lasting a good time, as well as the enjoyability of the round. Everyone runs into rounds, as it seems average every 5 rounds they play, are steamrolls.
I think that .90-.95 were the best versions PR had, teamwork wise. (Well, at least on US servers).

Too many people now a days **** around, and just have 8men in the middle of no where. Insurgency was fun, until it was being played every single round.
Transport wise, there are a great amount of players that have NO clue how to fly trans.
Then you got those who have "NO CLUE HOW TO FLY TRANS", but they know how to fly a CAS heli and jet.
I still have a lot of fun in PR, recently in the past 2 weeks I think I noticed more consistant teamwork and great squad leaders communicating with each other.

PR still has some GREAT potential in it, but I think this is the biggest the player base will ever get in the near future.

[ComedyInK]

Hello everyone. This is Spectrium.


-Spawning with no kit and preparation: I accept this is radical suggestion but for common good. It does not matter if you are squad leader or member, tank crew, pilot etc. every man should spawn with no kit. And the crucial point: When you take a kit from a crate. It does not come with fully lock'n loaded. It should have no ammunition, no handgrenades or AT rocket ammunitions etc. You should reload it slowly. So it gonna prevent "spawn and go" arcades which you kill a man and he spawns and came in 1 min to kill you while you heal wounds, prepare etc.

[Careless]

How do you imagine this "preparation" stage?

It's already a clusterfuck with 50 men spawning on the carrier and picking up kits from the supplies.

That's just plain stupid imho, atleast for PR at this very moment.



It works good with ArmA though.

[Jolly]

Isn't it supposed to be a suggestion??
But bro, PR:BF2 has an old engine. Like spawn with rifleman but without ammo pack. It's impossible.
What u r talking is more like ARMA, maybe u should try PR:ARMA, but IDK if there are still hardcore playing.

[Mouthpiece]

Sorry, OP, In a hurry I only red the part after "Some feedback examples about how important limited resources (after 1.0 patch):".

As much as they sound like a suggestions (and therefore they should be in a different forum section), I will look away because you're addressing 2 very crucial points ir PR. That is, I totally agree with the first two thoughts of yours - about spawnable special kits and rallies. But not about the whole reloading stuff, this is PR not ARMA after all.

Anyway, I have always been an advocate for more team integration in the process of "infantry". Make them more dependable on supplies. It's a shame to see the pilot person who makes the TRANS squad in a match eager to do all kinds of cool insertions and resupplies idling on a helipad, in base. For 90% of time of the match. The same goes with supply trucks and FOB's. After 1.0 and after those darn perma rallies (please, make them disappear god please ) I've definitely noticed a drop in FOB count per round and less logistics being done overall, as INF is ready to go blasting APC's and shit as soon as they spawn (LAT, Breacher) in main, an FOB or the rally.

The pseudo-perma rally makes PR more gamey. Also it kinda hurts the mod itself as it lessens the need for supplies. Other people have lost jobs because of that (those poor, poor idling pilots who have spent hundreds of hours training/maintaining their flying skills - blazing through Muttrah streets in a Huey in COOP and stuff - think about them; and not only them - also the whole logistics process).

P.S.
FYI I don't fly, I'm just thankful that I'm still alive to those pilots - even to the mediocre ones.

[mat552]

The same goes with supply trucks and FOB's. After 1.0 and after those darn perma rallies (please, make them disappear god please ) I've definitely noticed a drop in FOB count per round and less logistics being done overall, as INF is ready to go blasting APC's and shit as soon as they spawn (LAT, Breacher) in main, an FOB or the rally.

[...]

Also it kinda hurts the mod itself as it lessens the need for supplies. Other people have lost jobs because of that (those poor, poor idling pilots who have spent hundreds of hours training/maintaining their flying skills - blazing through Muttrah streets in a Huey in COOP and stuff - think about them; and not only them - also the whole logistics process).

I can tell you with some authority that in random public servers the overall number of FOBs hasn't gone anywhere since FOBs were introduced over stationary APC spawning and still required a commander to approve them (yeah, remember when that was a thing?). Some teams lay them out like candy, some forget how to use a shovel.

Transport pilots have always been bored after the initial rush except in a few situations like a US team on Muttrah neglecting all FOBs and having to spawn on the carrier. There's nothing new about them having to sit on their thumbs because they aren't really needed mid match but insist on hanging out in an asset that isn't required.

[Nugiman]

The spawning with no kit and preparation suggestion is bullcrap in my opinion.
PR is not ArmA! Never been.
PR always was the middle-way between tactical shooters like ArmA and skill-oriented CQB-games like BF2 itself. PR is about faster game pace then other military simulations. But with overall teamwork and tactics. You can have a good run as a lone-wolf once a round, and with luck wipe-out a whole squad. But thats not what the game is about.
PR is the arcade version of ArmA, but thats why we love it. You dont have to wait an hour to get fuel and ammo in your helicopter, you can just start right away. But the good thing is that PR doesn't loose its tactical demands.

[Navo]

I like your idea about the ammo bags.

[Mikemonster]

Well what is PR simulating? That is the underlying question as always. If everyone here answered this you would find everyone giving a different answer. This is why the game evolves in ways people don't understand - Because they don't understand what the actual changes are in aid of.

PR's own 'About' page doesn't even answer it. The closest is:

Project Reality reworks Battlefield 2, developed by Digital Illusions of Sweden (DICE), to create the most realistic and demanding virtual combat environment for PC gamers possible.

But this doesn't explain what it is simulating. What is the 'combat environment'? Or does it differ between maps?

Some people seem to see PR as simulating large-scale conventional warfare, because we have APC's and tanks and CAS all working together in a big but SYMBOLIC combined-arms battlefield. I say 'symbolic' because they don't see the soldiers and individual assets as individuals - In this case they represent a larger unit. I.e. a tank represents a tank platoon. A CAS heli represents permanent air cover by several helis (on call at any time). An infantryman represents more than just himself - A squad is basically a company. A supply truck represents a secure line of communication. etc. etc.

Other people see PR as simulating large-scale special forces operations, by elite units fighting at platoon level with some backup from a single heli. For instance, the map with the ARF to them is simulating the Black Hawk Down mission in Somalia. In this case each asset is 'literal'. I.e. a tank represents a tank. If it dies it's gone. A soldier in the game represents a single soldier. A supply truck is seen as an actual truck, carrying whatever ammunition will fit, in order to get some badly needed supplies to a beleaguered forward unit.


Most people hover somewhere between the two, which isn't just a compromise, it's nonsensical. And it leads to all sorts of silly discussions.

If we could define what PR is supposed to simulate before looking at the tiny micro-arguments such as whether a soldier should be able to spawn with a LAT kit, we would be a lot better informed on each others' opinions.

[Murphy]

Interesting food for thought, the representation vision of the game falls in line with the draw distance and speed (talking mostly about air here) limitations. On the flip side I'm sure many infantry players will fall into the literal train of thought as the way they view the fight is in inches not miles/kms.

This is very much the same as the realism vs gameplay struggle we all face. Which is closer to what the developers aim to achieve is pretty much relevant to every single suggestions and all feedback as it frames the game in a more tangible respect. It might be a double edged sword at this point because there is no framing the PR experience as it shifts from map to map and role to role, and boxing everything into a "literal realism" concept could easily limit and of the representational considerations in the past and future (works the other way as well).

[Spectrium]

First of all I want to thanks all of you. I didn't expected to get some answers

I chose wrong words in my first post. I called some shit named mental realism. Now I want to call it as "Strategical realism". Because differences between Bf2 and Bf2 Pr is more strategical things. Also some of them are not logical but still strategically acceptable. For example: random deviation is not some sort of thing that you may see irl.

Also new features does not change the mod itself directly but it just make it evolve. One small thing like "permanent" rallypoints may change whole gameplay itself. This is why i gave all of that stupid ideas as examples. We should bring stupid ideas frequently.

I just started from 0.981 but I can feel the evolution of this mod from the changelogs in the name of strategy and teamplay and I believe this mod has capable of more! The evolution of this mod must GO ON and it will with Our Stupid Ideas

Old game modes does not carry teamplay of 50v50 man. Most of the conventional maps are so simetrically prepared. Uav is too op for maps of Pr. We all can discuss and bring new ideas about these and more.

[tankninja1]

Honestly, and everybody will get angry from this, but I think that old deviation, that was a clusterf**k, was valuable to teamwork.

Here's my reasoning:

1. Infantry rifles, m4/m16/ak74/Enfield/g36... were mobile move fast get close weapons and AR's were good long distance "cover me" weapons.

2. Slows down battles. Instead of holding still, relatively, quickly you had to stop and wait for a shot, so you can't run around you had to pick a good spot to start shooting from.

3. Stockholm syndrome, something about PR isn't PR without being able to hit stuff.

[Spectrium]

There is no problem about deviation itself but it's quantity of errors. It's a good thing to slowing down the mod. Also it's simulating the ADS errors and involuntarily movements of arms(especially after run). But that's not possible to get error like 2 or 3 meters in 50meters if you are not ADS after a long run.

I am not against the deviation buddy. You are right it need to stay in the mod. But we need to decrease it's area of cone. Because it's just rewarding the lucky ones not skillful players. It's random and there is nothing but only shooting full automatically while screaming like a sissy girl. Because even if you break the misfortune of deviation and get some lucky tapping shoots. It's really hard to take someone out of combat with one or two bullets.(Even insurgents with no kevlar at eu servers with 50 ping.)

You are right, deviation is necessary for the game but we need to find something else to slow down close combats.

[matty1053]

I agree with the points about too much "spawnability." Just too many spawn locations sometimes.

Removing Rally points would help dramatically.

[PLODDITHANLEY]

I too preferred the older slower PR, but I think more people appreciate the newer faster version.

Short rallies, more deviation (completely agree with poster above).

[rewanyu]

Thank you for your sharing.